KSCVD?

[AuroEdge]

A friend just told me about KSVCD. Is it any good?

[ZippyP.]

These guys think so.

[fmctm1sw]

A friend just told me about KSVCD. Is it any good?

Kwag has his supporters and his detractors. I havn't seen him post here in a long time. I think the idea was getting lots of high quality video in the smallest possible size....

[AuroEdge]

It's been purported that you can stick 3 hours on one CD. Now that's either extreme variable bitrate at work or it's shi**y somehow.


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[lordsmurf]

Not really, no.

[rds_correia]

@AuroEdge,
Be so kind to visit the www.kvcd.net site and the www.kvcd.net/forum forums. There you'll find plenty of information about the K(S)VCD/KDVD formats.
Also be aware that while the K(S)VCD specifications might not be fully SVCD compliant, they will proove to work in more than 8 out of 10 standalone players.
If you really want compliancy please try the KDVD format as IT IS 100% DVD compliant
There you will be able to put 3 movies in a DVD

@all,
Don't anybody here get's me wrong, please.
I don't mean to start a flaming war out of this, but since noone else says or does anything about it, here goes.

Not really, no.

As I have asked you before, is it something personal?
Why don't you tell the guy that (if you ever tried it...) when you ran some tests with it, and you didn't catch quality enough for your standards ...
Why make the guy inmediatly turn his back on something just because your post counter has reached thousands.
Three words in your post will make a lot of difference and you know it, and you can't deny it's true
At least give the guy a full answer so that he knows why it's not good as per your own words. Can you elaborate on this
You can't, can you
It's not the 1st time I see you doing something like this.
The next time I won't be so generous and I'll give you a nice and fully featured explanation to why YOU should try it yourself .
Cheers

[Oscar wallace]

Yes it is fantastic quality, it took me a while to learn and sometimes felt like giving up but the quality was so good that I kept on at it..go to the website and see the light not the blocks..

[flaninacupboard]

the K templates use long GOPS and low quality Q matrix to aid compression. you're basically pushing MPEG1/2 as close to MPEG4 as you can. the clips i've seen down the years and the clips i've encoded have looked similar to Divx encodes. if you're happy with that quality then fair enough. i wasn't so i moved on.

i also had problems playing the files on my computer (choppy playback near the end of a GOP) and one DVD player totally choked. i've changed DVD players since then, and that's another good reason for avoiding non-compliant formats, when i buy a new dvd player i don't want my entire collection to be rendered unplayable.

Lordsmurf, copy&paste. maybe it'll keep rds_correia happy....

[pyrohydra]

re: kvcd.org

What a poorly designed website. It doesn't fit my screen using 1280x1024 resolution.

It also just crashed my browser.

[rds_correia]

re: kvcd.org

What a poorly designed website. It doesn't fit my screen using 1280x1024 resolution.

It also just crashed my browser.

And you wanted it to appear correctly on your screen??
Oh, man, I'm having a ball!
Draw a perfect circle with any professional tool out there that really keeps it a true circle and not an egg.
Can you see it on your screen as a perfect circle?
Go get yourself another screen resolution, man
Change to 1024x768 and it will look perfect as well as KVCD.net
The reason is that 1280x1024 is not DAR 4:3 as any other VGA res.
So you shouldn't use it in the 1st place!
Cheers

[rds_correia]

the K templates use long GOPS and low quality Q matrix to aid compression. you're basically pushing MPEG1/2 as close to MPEG4 as you can. the clips i've seen down the years and the clips i've encoded have looked similar to Divx encodes. if you're happy with that quality then fair enough. i wasn't so i moved on.

i also had problems playing the files on my computer (choppy playback near the end of a GOP) and one DVD player totally choked. i've changed DVD players since then, and that's another good reason for avoiding non-compliant formats, when i buy a new dvd player i don't want my entire collection to be rendered unplayable.

Lordsmurf, copy&paste. maybe it'll keep rds_correia happy....

Hi there,
Can you all stop for a moment and forget your PC screen?
Look at your TV set.
Does it look like MPEG-4?
Run another test.
Learn how to use KVCD.
Be fair and square and I'll bet you it ain't nearly close to MPEG-4.
It's miles away from MPEG-4.
You want it to be 100% compliant?
Use KDVD. Most of you already have DVD burners.
Fit 2 or 3 movies in a DVD MILES away from MPEG-4.
In fact some poor DVD sources even look worst than after KDVD encoding!
I could send you guys some samples tomorrow.
That is: if you would be open minded enough to look at those impartially .
Cheers

[flaninacupboard]

yep, i'll take another look. it's been ~18 months since i looked at the K templates.

as for 1280x1024, he's probably got a 17" TFT screen

[pyrohydra]

re: kvcd.org

What a poorly designed website. It doesn't fit my screen using 1280x1024 resolution.

It also just crashed my browser.

And you wanted it to appear correctly on your screen??
Oh, man, I'm having a ball!
Draw a perfect circle with any professional tool out there that really keeps it a true circle and not an egg.
Can you see it on your screen as a perfect circle?
Go get yourself another screen resolution, man
Change to 1024x768 and it will look perfect as well as KVCD.net
The reason is that 1280x1024 is not DAR 4:3 as any other VGA res.
So you shouldn't use it in the 1st place!
Cheers

Wow...can you say "rabid, foaming at the mouth fanboy"? I knew you could.

Now, I've never seen a K/S/X/ABC/VCD and thus can't comment on it's quality. However, you seem to be flaming anyone who insults anything associated with your KVCD RELIGION. I was simply commenting on poor web design. Aspect ratio has nothing to do with it. 1280x1024 is a very common resolution. Most every site will render at this resolution flawlessly. kvcd.org is actually the first site I've come across in about a year that has problems with it. The cause: bad web design. There are other issues with that site, which I won't go into here.

In closing, I did not intend to insult you or your KVCD RELIGION, so your flame was totally unwarranted.

tszt!

[indolikaa]

I tried KVCD awhile back with a football game I had recorded. Probably not the best source for such a format, given all the action frames, but it wasn't grossly offensive.

How would KDVD compare to MPEG-1 DVD @ 1850 kbps, I wonder...

[rds_correia]

Wow...can you say "rabid, foaming at the mouth fanboy"? I knew you could.

Didn't understand a word you wrote...
English is not my native language.
Just hope you weren't by any means trying to offend me although the word fanboy got me thinking...

Now, I've never seen a K/S/X/ABC/VCD and thus can't comment on it's quality. However, you seem to be flaming anyone who insults anything associated with your KVCD RELIGION.

I'm not flaming.
I don't want to, and I hope I will never do that, ever.
If you don't like my line of speech please don't insult as you have just recognised.

I was simply commenting on poor web design. Aspect ratio has nothing to do with it. 1280x1024 is a very common resolution. Most every site will render at this resolution flawlessly. kvcd.org is actually the first site I've come across in about a year that has problems with it. The cause: bad web design. There are other issues with that site, which I won't go into here.

I was kidding with you.
Though I would strongly recommend you not to use such a res. for the reason I pointed out.
Web design was not our motive here.
That was OT.
Please go into those other issues please as we may end up learning something.
Else don't bring subjective subjects that only serve to deviate our attention from our nice chat.

In closing, I did not intend to insult you or your KVCD RELIGION, so your flame was totally unwarranted.

I didn't flame at all.
I argued. And I think that when people discuss/talk about/argue they may actually gain something from it.
I started here a long time ago.
Although I only registered in 2003 I was a guest for a long time.
I learnt a lot in here.
I respect the vcdhelp community.
But sometimes some people here at vcdhelp don't seem to respect others opinions and tend to deviate a newbie attention when he asks the wrong K question.
That's all.
Don't mean to flame in here or anywhere else, never.
Just talk and exchange points of view with open minded people.
I think I can do that here.
What do you think?
Cheers

[indolikaa]

It looks like the website is designed to fit a 1600x1200 screen. It still has a scrollbar at 1280x1024, which looks fine otherwise on this weeny Dell 17" monitor I use at work.

I'll try the 16x12 when I get home. I don't dare try it here, the refresh rate is atrocious.

[johns0]

re: kvcd.org

What a poorly designed website. It doesn't fit my screen using 1280x1024 resolution.

It also just crashed my browser.

I tried visiting the site at 1024x768 and 1280x960 and it doesnt fit my screen either so its not a case of having proper dar(4:3).Just commenting.

[Oscar wallace]

avoiding non-compliant formats

Well I have got two DVD players and neither one of them is a 100% compliant with my DVD collection.

[flaninacupboard]

exactly, i don't want to keep another player simply for a few discs, i want one player to play everything. which it does.

[Gazorgan]

Instead of KSVCD, I do (did) xSVCD(higher max). As long as fast forwarding/reversing aren't required, KSVCD can do pretty good.

The key is to not expect miracles. KVCD looks okay up to 2 hours. KSVCD has a higher res, so it has a correspondingly lower bitrate per pixel, but MPEG2 is superior to MPEG1 in compression ratio. It works best in that 60-100 minute range, but anything over 2 hours just looks "bad" compared to using 2 CDR's. A pristine source is a MUST!

[indolikaa]

avoiding non-compliant formats

Well I have got two DVD players and neither one of them is a 100% compliant with my DVD collection.

Labels up, Oscar! If you put the disc in with the label size down, it just won't work right.

[rds_correia]

re: kvcd.org

What a poorly designed website. It doesn't fit my screen using 1280x1024 resolution.

It also just crashed my browser.

I tried visiting the site at 1024x768 and 1280x960 and it doesnt fit my screen either so its not a case of having proper dar(4:3).Just commenting.

Hi there
Im running XP on 1024x768 and I never had problems with the site
I already tried it today and...nope, no problems at all.
In the past I used 800x600 and also no problems.
But hey, if I turn to 1280x1024 and push the defaults button on my PC monitor I already have the same problem you do...
What can I say?
Nevertheless 1024x768 should work.
The site "format" may not be the best, maybe I could do a better job with Frontpage or anything else.
The forums are very similar to vcdhelp's since it's based on phpBB too, and that's what counts IMHO .
Cheers

[rds_correia]

Instead of KSVCD, I do (did) xSVCD(higher max). As long as fast forwarding/reversing aren't required, KSVCD can do pretty good.

The key is to not expect miracles. KVCD looks okay up to 2 hours. KSVCD has a higher res, so it has a correspondingly lower bitrate per pixel, but MPEG2 is superior to MPEG1 in compression ratio. It works best in that 60-100 minute range, but anything over 2 hours just looks "bad" compared to using 2 CDR's. A pristine source is a MUST!

Hi there
When using tmpgenc you can expect quite the opposite.
For long movies/low action movies (thus lower bitrates) use MPEG-1 as tmpgenc is the king there.
For shorter or high action movies I would always shoot for MPEG-2.
Wether I'm doing K or not
Good clean sources always come handy using standards or non-standards.
Cheers

[lordsmurf]

Not really, no.

As I have asked you before, is it something personal?
Why don't you tell the guy that (if you ever tried it...) when you ran some tests with it, and you didn't catch quality enough for your standards ...... Can you elaborate on this

I answered the question "Is it any good?" with "Not really, no."

That's a perfectly fine answer.

If you need details, ask. Yes, the quality was far inferior and added too much time to the encode. It was a double negative experience.

[pacheco]

I answered the question "Is it any good?" with "Not really, no."

That's a perfectly fine answer.

If you need details, ask. Yes, the quality was far inferior and added too much time to the encode. It was a double negative experience.

I did posyt this at another thread, but I think that it just didn't rub in well!
Instead of now posting a link to their samples, I'll just post their screenshots right here, and maybe some people can make a visual decision. For me, I've seen the light!










The download file is here,
http://www.kvcd.org/bttf.mpg.cut.45.mpg ant the thread is this one http://kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11448&start=96


Now, lordsmurf, could you PLEASE explain to me why that is no good?
Can you tell us WHY that looks (to you) like crap?
Because all I read from your replies, everything at kvcd is crap.
Or, am I wrong?

[LSchafroth]

It was a double negative experience.

Double negative means you liked it then? right?? hehe

LS

[FulciLives]

The biggest problem I have with the whole thing is that you are creating non-compliant files.

We know this of the CD formats without question.

As for KDVD being compliant ... I just don't buy it ... it's too far out-of-whack to be 100% compliant. Nothing you can say will convince me otherwise.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[lordsmurf]

Rather than me having to prove why it "is not" ... why don't you guys prove to me why "it is" ?? After all, I'm not out to prove a case. You are.

What Fulci says.

This is a common argument with DVD-LAB too, which, after research and testing, is not full 100% up to DVD spec. This is one reason of many that I stick to Sonic Solutions software (Reel, DVDit!).

[BJ_M]

the middle pic above is really bad -- what is that supposed to prove ? that people like macroblocks

bottom pic is non movement and doesnt do anything -- might as well post a jpeg as that is about what that would be .. though look around the faces edges..

[rds_correia]

The biggest problem I have with the whole thing is that you are creating non-compliant files.

Hi John ,
It's true. I don't try to hide it from anyone.
But that's only when you're talking about K(S)VCD.
Maybe some guys still have players that can't read it and that's a fine opinion from you, of course.

As for KDVD being compliant ... I just don't buy it ... it's too far out-of-whack to be 100% compliant. Nothing you can say will convince me otherwise.

Now it gets a little bit more complicated.
I show you the KDVD specifications.
Remember that I have been using them with meny encoders such as tmpgenc/cce(just for tests)/MCE(tests)/FFvfw(tests)/FFmpeg(tests)/MEncoder(still testing):

For DVD compliant MPEG files, select the standard DVD parameters for your encoder, but change (modify, patch, etc.) the matrix on your encoder to use the KVCD "Notch" Quantization Matrix. This will enable play times of ~6 hours on a 4.7GB DVD(+-)R(W) media at a standard resolution of 720x480(576 ) Full D-1, Wide Screen encodes, or ~10 hours at a resolution of 352x480( 576 ) Half D-1.

( Specifications subject to change without notice )
Copyright© 2002, 2003 Softronex Corporation. All Rights Reserved.
The names "KVCD" and "K Video Compression Dynamics" are trade marks of Karl Wagner.

Now, John, can you point me to the out-of-whack part of the KDVD format ?
KDVD is plain "old" standard DVD specifications just with the KVCD Notch Matrix added to it .
Can you elaborate on this John?
TIA
Cheers