Creating KVCD with Canopus

[red_squirrel]

Can anybody locate me to a step-by-step guide (or tell me in this post) how to create a KVCD using Canopus ProCoder.

[lordsmurf]

Can anybody locate me to a step-by-step guide (or tell me in this post) how to create a KVCD using Canopus ProCoder.

KVCD is not a format. That's a crappy augmentation of TMPGENC for MPEG encoding. Nothing more, nothing less. What you ask is therefore impossible.

[dafreak]

hey lordsmurf,
I was just curious about something. this is the second time i've seen you post about how crappy the kvcd template is. Can you tell me why it's so crappy?

Thanks in advance

[FulciLives]

The whole thing is so far "out-of-whack" aka non compliant that it is really just a waste of time.

I could almost see the need for it back when DVD burners didn't exist and people were trying to get better VCD and SVCD quality.

But now that DVD burners are so cheap and even the media is now cheap so ... no point now to using it.

By using it you really risk future compatibility since it works on so few DVD players.

Why take that risk?

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[red_squirrel]

Well, thanks so much for your absolutely brilliant help.

[DVWannaB]

red_squirrel,

sounds like you are getting upset by comments above. You should not. They are after all correct. I too have used KVCD and still own some disks with the various KVCD/SKVCD/KDVD templates. They are also good for understanding compression and playing with the settings outside of what is standardized.

The quick answer to your initial question is that:
1. No one will give you the answer you are looking for. Remember KVCD was done with TMPG in mind. No other encoder. Each encoder is set up differently and by playing with the settings will give you varying results from one to another.

2. Post your question on KVCD.net forum. All the gurus are there. But be prepared for a similar response as those above.

If you really want great compression, why dont you try DivX or XviD. Better compression than KVCD and you can get 3 great looking movies on 1 DVD disk with compatibility with more and more players every day..

Good luck.

[red_squirrel]

Fair enough dvWannabe, but I asked if anybody knew how to create a KVCD using Canopus - not a lecture on why people think the KVCD format is rubbish. I happen to think it offers great picture quality and saves on CDs because I do not own a DVD writer, which is why I ask.

[adam]

The closest you can do is to load up a KVCD template in TMPGenc and just compare the settings used to yours in Procoder. Just try to match them as much as possible and then just aim for whatever bitrate you need to fill the desired amount of disks.

As far as I know, Procoder won't allow you to edit the Quantize Matrix, and that is the main feature of the KVCD templates, so what you are asking probably isn't possible. You can still make use of the general settings and some of the typical filtering suggestions used over at kvcd.net.

[red_squirrel]

Thanks Adam, I will give that a go for definite.

[lordsmurf]

Fair enough dvWannabe, but I asked if anybody knew how to create a KVCD using Canopus - not a lecture on why people think the KVCD format is rubbish. I happen to think it offers great picture quality and saves on CDs because I do not own a DVD writer, which is why I ask.

I answered your question. That's a TMPGENC augmentation. So no.

[red_squirrel]

how is it impossible? i am sure there is a way of creating KVCDs other than through TMPGEnc - does anyone know of any other programs which can do this?

[lordsmurf]

how is it impossible? i am sure there is a way of creating KVCDs other than through TMPGEnc - does anyone know of any other programs which can do this?

The key ingredient to kwag's formats is altering the matrix. This feature is a part of TMPENC only. Even if another program let you alter the matrix, it would still not be the same method (the encoding engine used by TMPGENC is assuredly different than the encoding engines of other software).

Everything else about this format is simply altering settings (bitrate, res, etc).

Again.... no.

[rds_correia]

The key ingredient to kwag's formats is altering the matrix. This feature is a part of TMPENC only. Even if another program let you alter the matrix, it would still not be the same method (the encoding engine used by TMPGENC is assuredly different than the encoding engines of other software).

Everything else about this format is simply altering settings (bitrate, res, etc).

Again.... no.

Hello,
@red_squirrel
Please be so kind to visit http://www.kvcd.org/portal/articles.php?lng=en&pg=20
Those are the key ingredients to use K(S)VCD/KDVD formats .
Almost every option explained there is present in other compression engines besides tmpgenc.
@all,
Also be so kind to understand that KDVD is fully DVD compliant, period.
You all may argue on K(S)VCD which is basically more than 80% compliant but not 100%, and that I have to understand.
But not with KDVD!
Also I agree that the basis for these formats are the KVCD matrix but other details are also very important.
Be aware that almost every encoder out there can receive new matrices!
So that's not an argument!
Many members have done K templates for CCE, MCE, etc.
So K is not attached by any way only to tmpgenc.
We just find tmpgenc a very good and affordable encoder, that's all.
Cheers

[Cecilio]

Smurf, it is possible, the only thing you have to know is about writting scripts. If you are running on Windows, you can make either a VBS script, or or a registry script. you can imput the matrices into the registry, or vbs script, and this should allow you to use the kvcd matrices on Canopus Procoder. I have a registry for KDVD and K(S)VCD for CCE, but i dont like the matrices much, i would much rather prefer the Cinema Craft Encoder Smooth Matrices if I am trying to conserve space. If i am not trying to conserve space, then the standard matrix is the best in my opinion.

[lordsmurf]

I trust the matrix of Canopus and MainConcept more than some dude named kwag.

[rds_correia]

Ooooh,
Is that a personal problem I sense here
Say, have you tried it yourself yet
If so, why not help the guy give it a try and decide for himself
It's wonderful seeing that somebody can claim something is "crappy" and everybody else will have to play along with him .
Gather the KVCD matrix and a bunch of the KVCD format encoding options that are SVCD compliant, and you'll end up cooking a fully compliant SVCD backup 8)
But we're all too convinced that this ain't true, aren't we
My personal opinion on it always: test something and draw my conclusions afterwards
If more people did the same, the less remarks like these we would have to read...
Just my 0.02€
Cheers
PS-This is the main reason why I haven't posted here for a long time.
Maybe I'll start posting again, or at least browse the forums more often.
I think I'll have a good time reading some posts like these .

[pacheco]

I trust the matrix of Canopus and MainConcept more than some dude named kwag.

Does that mean we can't trust the guides made by some dude named "lordsmurf"

rds_correia:

I almost never post here either. But I do browse this site every once in a while.
It seems there has been some friction between some users here and kwag. I still don't understand why advanced methods are rejected here, if they can clearly be applied to standard procedures.
Frankly, I had good experience with kwag. I posted here for some help several weeks ago, and I never had a reply!. So I PMed kwag over at his site, and he replied with a very good answer to my question, related to calcumatic and cinemacraft., which btw I think it's the best bitrate calculator without a question!
My recommendations to everyone asking questions about KVCD is to post at their site. Not here!
This is clearly a newbies site, and their rules are apparently very strict, so they won't answer questions related to non-standard methods.
But I agree with your comments about KDVD stuff. It's 100% compliant, and that's what I'm now doing all the time.
I have no complaints!
Cheers!

[SatStorm]

TMPGEnc Express 3, do xDVDs same way KDVD.
But this is a built in fuction of this new version. TMPGenc call it xDVD
http://www.pegasys-inc.com/en/product/te3xp.html


"It has also introduced the XDVD (extended DVD) format, a unique and original format that allows to make MPEGs for High Image Quality and Long Playing DVD's, pushing the DVD-Video standard to its limits!!!"

This is KDVD with another name. The correct name. But the fact is that TMPGenc authors got kwag ideas (and not only: Those -X- ideas are floating in the net years now...) and make them built in fuctions for their product.

Kwag (and the rest with those -x- ideas) didn't earn something for this.

IMHO, any "x" is crap and I don't care about it. But this is me, others are using x" for their needs and like it. It is their choice. And among them, Kwag prooved himself in a point that nobody can doubt.

[pacheco]

And among them, Kwag prooved himself in a point that nobody can doubt.

What point is that?
Could you explain what you mean? Because I don't understand
What I can doubdt, is the kind of comments I read on this site every day about kwag and kvcd!
Because all I can see is results, and clearly superior results to the way I used to do my encodings.
I don't know if some of you are aware of what to expect from KDVd, but I'm very aware of the results!, and results is what I want.
Have you seen the latest techniques these people have developed, specially with mencoder?
If you havent, I think you should seriously take a closer look, because I think many people here are missing some key points, which are to our benefit
Please don't tell me that what you'll see in this link is crap, because if you think it is, then I really don't know how you guys measure quality a encode!
http://kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11448&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=96

[SatStorm]

Pacheco, Kwag developed his ideas here you know... Few years ago, when this place here called VCDhelp.
So, we pretty know here (the older members at least...) what kvcd is all about.

It is an -x- format and nothing more. What piss off most people here, is that he don't accept this fact, and call his solutions "format".

His solutions are not formats. Neither "advance" encoding methods. There are simply alternative non standard encoding technics, with high risk of non compatibility with the formats as determined by those who made them. The big ones that is. End.

There were others beyond Kwag, you know. They use to do the same things with other names: For example, his kvcd once was called "CVCD", from the legentary vcdhelpspain.com
Also some Germans have something call MVCD.
Our own sefy presented SeVCD and SxVCD.
So building -x- alternatives is not something rare.

And about the results you see with KVCD / KDVD: I can succeed the same -if not better- results, without being -x-
So many others here.
I manage to succeed this after years of testing and learning about this hobby. I can do this with various alternatives and methods.
Where is the difference then, and why you see better results with the ready Kwag templates?

Well you see, what Kwag do (so anyone who wish to present those kind of ideas as something unique", is to determine a specific method, root if you like to say, to succeed results.
That way, by following his exact steps, you can succeed the same results , with little effort.

The diffence here, is that in this forum, we present this hobby as a whole. There are guides, but we don't determine steps, neither we present specific solutions to succeed results. We present all the alternatives and we let the one who ask about them decide what he likes more.

Personally, I don't like those who follow ready solutions (that's why I dislike avisynth also: Most users of avisynth simply use ready strips, they don't made their own neither know what they are doing). And the reason I'm on this forum, is because the majority of the users here, are thinking like me. So, we have a philosophy here, that we follow. The long timers at least.

There are some who like to approach this subject different: Those soon or later move to a forum more suitable for their needs.

What is unique in this forum, is that we are probably the only one in this scene, offering an active and supporting newbie section. On this, the other forums of this scene fail. So, we are the one feeding this scene and you gonna realise that, when (and if) this forum one day stop exist.
That doesn't make us a newbie forum: A quarter of all the newcomers stick here for very long, and statisticly this is a very good number.

The advance sections of this forum, are probably among the best you can find in the internet. The international nature of this place , gurante active forum members outside US/UK/Canada/Australia, which is a positive plus. Only the off topic section is Agglosaxocentric and that because of the language barrier. All the rest technical sections of this forum, are active with members all over the world which is a positive thing: We talking PAL and NTSC equal here, while on other places are talking only PAL or only NTSC. Thanks to ******** like me, there are here PAL answers which is rare for the english speaking forums in that detail.

The bottom line is, that this is a general forum. Has entry and advance sections. You don't like general forums, search for dedicated ones. All the rest, is only chating.

[Oscar wallace]

Done my first KVCD this week been learning slowly from Kwags website for a couple of weeks now, done a back up of " HOLLOW MAN" and got the entire film on to 1 CD-R using the SKVCD template and one of Kwags scripts and a few tweaks......The quality is brilliant and people find it hard to believe it's all on 1 CD!.
I am going to try and alter the settings and edit the Matrix in MainConcept encoder simply beacuse it's faster then TMPGEnc and some say better? I could buy a DVD burner and use shrink and then yawn a lot, but the idea of getting over two hours of good quality film onto one CD and using about seven different programmes to do it is rather appealing, and after all it's one of my hobby's.

[rds_correia]

Hi
Very wise words SatStorm.

And about the results you see with KVCD / KDVD: I can succeed the same -if not better- results, without being -x-
So many others here.

Can you point us to a place in the forums where we can get such as good as/better than -x- video quality encodes.
Or maybe a ultimate guide for it?
What I really don't like is reading something like:

KVCD is not a format. That's a crappy augmentation of TMPGENC for MPEG encoding. Nothing more, nothing less. What you ask is therefore impossible.

You know SatStorm, that, that is not impossible.
And saying something is crappy without explaining why is not a very good thing to do.
That's basically my point.
Want to call is -x- instead of KVCD format? Go ahead.
Want to show us a better way than KVCD/-x- we'll be delighted.
Just saying crappy without justifying our words doesn't seem to be an option to me.
I prefer helping and letting people test 1st and choose their own way.
That's why I posted in the 1st place.
And just for the record, KVCD/-x- is NOT by any way attached to tmpgenc.
It can be used on almost all encoders out there.
Cheers

[SatStorm]

How it is possible to feet any 120min movie, on a 80min CD: Really fast guide by SatStorm

- You rip the DVD and with the use of DVD2avi, you create a d2v project and a ac3.wav one from the ripped movie

- You convert d2v using vfapi plug in so to be possible to be read in virtualdub.

- You load this fake file (let say m2v) to virtualdub

- You letterbox your picture: So any 16:9 movie turns 4:3 with black up and down boarders

- You add filters like: Static Noise Reduction ( 8 ), Dynamic Noise Reduction ( 8 ), Sharpen (8). You resize to 352 x 576 and you frameserve to TMPGenc

- You load the virtualdub vdr frameserve dumm file to TMPGenc and you load the SVCD template. You unlock it and set: Video 352 x 576, @ CQ 0 - 2600 @ 50%. Audio 44100Khz @ 128kb/s
You also set "no motion search for half picture" and "reduce block noise".
At TMPGenc you go to filters and you crop the black boarders of your letterbox picture. You set keep aspect ratio 2 to TMPGenc also "4:3 display" in the input.
You hit encode and you wait.....

It is always more than 110 min that way. I have projects that way, end up 136 minutes per 80 min CD, but never a project end up less than 110 min.

That's it: Enjoy your 2 hour movie on a 80 min CD, with the same crappy quality of any xSVCD. The difference is that you are not anymore -X-. Also, your file are ready for DVD! Why? 352 x 576 is a valid framesize for DVD Video.

[rds_correia]

Nice gesture Satstorm
I'll give it a shot tomorrow and I'll tell you the results.
I promisse to fair in the test
Cheers

[Oscar wallace]

That's it: Enjoy your 2 hour movie on a 80 min CD, with the same crappy quality of any xSVCD.

Tried VCD, XVCD, XSVCD and SVCD, the only one I was happy with was the SVCD using DVD2SVCD but it was taking 3-4 CD-R's ,found Kwag website and I will never backup a film any other way, even when I get a DVD burner I will use the same process to get at least 5 films on one DVD, and not with crappy quality but with very high quality that KVCD gives to those that use the process right.

[LSchafroth]

How about this??

People who know something about KVCD or KDVD and can help, post the suggestions.

People who do not like it, don't post, or simply note the Pros and Cons of the method. The help you get here is usually terrific so let's keep it that way!!

LS

[SatStorm]

I have a better idea:
Those who like to talk and try kvcd / kdvd /etc, better visit www.kvcd.org.
After all, they do have an active forum there, and they are very friendly and supporting on their community.

So, why posting those questions here firstplace?

The only thing I can guess about questions like yours, expecially from newcomers like you Oscar wallace, you rds_correia and you pacheco is that you are not here to ask questions. You are only here to speak about it.

And because I don't wish to bite anymore, from now on, I'll suggest to all the members of this forum the amazing portal kvcd.net each time someone asks about this miracle called KVCD / KDVD.

Starting from right now:

To all you kvcd lovers: http://www.kvcd.org/portal/index.php

You gonna find all the support and all the infos you need there and only there.

[chicola]

Lordsmurf,

I agree that your word has some weigth, so a negative opinion without more explanations can unbalance things prematurely..

Satstorm,

I'll not refer to the "K" word 8) I promise

I think that you'll agree that LSchafroth's way is the thing that makes this forum great so, don't be so hard on the "K" thing.

All portugueses involved,

Let people bash the "K" method... It's a democracy. Present your Pros and let other specify Cons...

Let the reader see different opinions and try to decide for himself!

If you blindly defend your queen against all others you start to loose credibility.

BTW, I'll try a "K" matrix just for the heck of it!

[pacheco]

So, why posting those questions here firstplace?

You are correct satstorm
Sorry for posting in the wrong forum
Guess I'll move over and post at the correct (kvcd) forum for my video needs.

Bye!

-----
edit -- I feel too much hostility here

[lordsmurf]

Lordsmurf,
I agree that your word has some weigth, so a negative opinion without more explanations can unbalance things prematurely..

My time these past few weeks is limited. Sorry if my brevity causes confusion or anger, but it's the most I can do these days.

Like I said, "K" formats are merely an augmentation of TMPGENC. When you start to alter other programs, not only are you not following specs, you're not following kwag either. So again, impossible. It seems on the KVCD site some other software is being tested, but nothing I care to look into... maybe this will change in the future. Go there, read, have fun, good luck.

I strive to do things the CORRECT way, with the MOST COMPLIANT specs, and in the HIGHEST QUALITY possible. I see squeezing 5 movies onto a DVD as pretty stupid. Time is money. It's cheaper to spend an extra 50 cents on another PRODISCS03. And you never know if your out-of-spec files will play in the future.

And "higher quality" is very subjective. I am not at all impressed by "x" variants. Nor do I care for the ego trips of kwag and his minions (because he thinks he invented "x").