DV _camera recordings vs. analog input recordings _sync loss

[jg0001]

I have what I think is an unusual problem. Everything below relates to my Panasonic DV-953 mini-DV camcorder and Pinnacle 8.

(1) When I (Firewire) import an entire mini-DV tape (1 hour) into Pinnacle 8, if it was footage that I shot using the CAMERA itself (even with gaps, multiple stops, etc), I get the whole hour in perfectly, with no dropped frames and perfect audio sync from beginning to end. I can cut it up, do whatever and it never loses sync.

(2) I tried to use the pass-through method to convert an analog tape (playing from my VCR) to DV-AVI and while my camera seemed to be doing the job passing the DV, the resulting DV file (in Studio 8 and in WMP) had audio sync problems that are barely evident at about the 25 minute mark and very pronounced at the 1 hour mark (1-2 seconds behind).

(3) Next I tried transferring the analog tape to a DV tape, then transferring the DV tape to the computer. While the recording on the DV tape is in perfect sync all the way from beginning to end, when I imported it in one lump hour, it lost sync again! This was baffling since the DV tape itself was in perfect sync (and since I've imported 10+ hours of home movies (recorded with the camera, not from analog sources) with never any loss of sync).

(4) I ended up using the DV tape and playing only 12-13 minutes at a time into Pinnacle, stopping, then restarting into new files for each 12-13 minute segment, overlapping a minute or so on each end. In the end, I then used Pinnacle to stitch the files together (the auto-scene marker helped tremendously) and there was NO loss of sync in the resulting megafile.

How is it that there is any difference (that Pinnacle can see) between tapes recorded natively on the camera and those recorded through the analog inputs on the camera? How is this a problem especially when the DV tapes themselves never lose sync? Is it possible that since the footage I shot had a few built in end-points (which Pinnacle skips) (i.e. I didn't use the camera to record for 60 straight minutes) that the synchronization problem just never had a chance to become evident WHILE the analog tape recording is non-stop for the entire period?

Any answers would be appreciated.

[PhreakPhish]

I have the same problem - I was capturing them around every 10 minutes or so. I am getting tired of doing it b/c I have over 40 8mm tapes to convert and I shouldn't need to do this. I can capture it with an hour or w/e and the sync os perfect. I am also using Pinnacle 8 and moviebox. When I go to make the DVD with Pinnacle and I lose sync. I tried TMPGenc and TMPGENC author and I lose sync. When I convert to a DVD compadible format I lose sync. I tried demuxing and changing the audio around from 41,000.mhz and 48000 - I tried changing the bitrate of the audio also - Is this a capture problem? Is there a way to capture it in mmpeg2 dvd compadiable format? When I author it what can I do so the audio doesnt get converted? I looked at the enviornmental settings to use an outside encoder but I can only find out for TMPGenc, I haven't tried it yet. I have been on this problem for over a month now. Hopefulyl someone can help both of us out. I figured my problem was releated to yours and maybe though my problem we can both figure out whats wrong since we are using Pinnacle. I know there aer soooo many sync post and each one says that too. But I read over 50 post and none of them helped. Thanks

[donpedro]

First... there are so many OOS issues arround and it is so hard to identify why and what is causing them.

Second... most of the people who have got tired of this issue when recording from VHS tape bought Standalone DVD Recorders and they are very happy now.

Now back to issue. I saw in some posts that people had better luck when captured with different tool. I am not sure if this is the right one, but try ScenalyzerLive.

[PhreakPhish]

Ok ..So I think I finally figured it out . I am making the DVD right now in TMPGEnc Author - I used Sound Forge to subtract what the audio was going over with the video (i found out with virtual dub) . I made a new wav with soundforge with the same length the video is, since the audio was over. I belive this will work. I then just loaded the new wav file and old video file(i got from TMPGenc from de-muxing) into TMPGenc Author. I found this guide on here and I'm pretty sure this is going to work. If you need a link ask me and I'll find it later -=]

[jg0001]

Phreak, I appreciate your comments, but your problem doesn't sound like mine. My problem is that ONLY analog-to-DV tapes seem to get out of sync when brought into Pinnacle (but not on the tape itself), yet home movies recorded on the same camera import perfectly. Once I have a good, in-sync DV-AVI file, I use TMPGEnc Plus and have NO further problems. (So, my problem isn't in making the AVI's into something else, it is creating the AVI's to begin with.) What I don't get is why there are sync problems, but only with stuff I recorded from the input lines.

[jg0001]

I'll try ScenalyzerLive... does anyone know if you have to select DV type 1 or 2? What type does Pinnacle capture in? (lastly, did anyone who pre-ordered Pinnacle 9 receive it yet? I did, haven't got it yet, but DID see it in boxes at Best Buy earlier this week).

[bugster]

Is your source VHS tape particularly old or worn?

It is possible that during the conversion from analog to digital by the camera some frames are dropped due to too much noise in the signal (often cause by old or worn tapes). This could account for the audio sync loss.

[donpedro]

I'll try ScenalyzerLive... does anyone know if you have to select DV type 1 or 2? What type does Pinnacle capture in? (lastly, did anyone who pre-ordered Pinnacle 9 receive it yet? I did, haven't got it yet, but DID see it in boxes at Best Buy earlier this week).

Check Pinnacle Help file. It should be there iwhich type they use.

The box in Best Buy is full version. The one that you ordered is an Upgrade. It is different CD. Upgrade is looking for old CD and software installed on PC, while Full version not. That is my understanding. I didn't order upgrade directly from Pinnacle so I am not sure if they started to ship, but release date is Feb. 16th.

[PhreakPhish]

My sync problem is fixed now-=]
I didn't order Pinnacle 9 -
I love 8, but it only allows you to save something around like 2.4gigs for a DVD - This sucks when my videos are greater then 2.4 because the templates are awesome and I lose using them. Is there anyway around that? So I use Pinnacle to capture - I capture in DVD high quality format -when I watch the mpeg it is in sync. But when I go to make a DVD it changes the format around (I'm thinking its not really a DVD type format). So then when creating a DVD mpeg format I lose sync. But now I have fixed it with Sound Forge and Virtual Dub. So for your question what format it captures in, you can choose in setting what you want it to capture in. But for some reason for me, after you capture and make an mpeg DVD format it goes out of sync. Maybe they have fixed these 2 things in Pinnacle 9. For now, until I figure out how to capture in the REAL DVD format in sync I will have to keep converting files. For your problem maybe you might just have to do the same thing. After it is captured out of sync, you will need to de-mux it and change the audio length to the video length. After that is done you can just simply take that wav file or w/e format it is in and the video file into TMPGenc and Author it, or you can mux it into an mpeg and load it in Pinnacle. Unless there is a program out there that will capture in sync in a dvd format? I haven't tried virtual dub yet for this because the version I had (d/led mpeg 2 mod of Virtual Dub last night and didn't have the chance yet) wouldn't recognize moviebox (capture hardware).

And as for the DV type 1 or 2 I am not sure. I am kind of new at this.
I also haven't tried ScenalyzerLive yet. Wish I could help out.

I hope this helps.

[donpedro]

I love 8, but it only allows you to save something around like 2.4gigs for a DVD

THI IS NOT TRUE

[PhreakPhish]

hmm..maybe I am doing something wrong? Will it allow you to save a full 4.6? When I create the DVD for some reason it creates a folder with a bunch of other files I don't need. I belive it is counting these files for the other half of what the DVD should be so I am only getting up to 2.4 ( or around) for my DVD allowed. This would be great if I can make a 4.6 g mpeg onto a a DVD.

[donpedro]

DV File Types and Pinnacle Studio Compatibility.

The Studio software supports type 2 DV AVI files as they are generally more compatible with video editing applications. Type 1 DV files are not supported. The following article is a description of each.

Microsoft about DV AVI

[donpedro]

hmm..maybe I am doing something wrong? Will it allow you to save a full 4.6? When I create the DVD for some reason it creates a folder with a bunch of other files I don't need. I belive it is counting these files for the other half of what the DVD should be so I am only getting up to 2.4 ( or around) for my DVD allowed. This would be great if I can make a 4.6 g mpeg onto a a DVD.

If you can be more specific, maybe I can help. But perhaps new post is appropriate (send me PM with link).

[donpedro]

BTW: What do you call "REAL DVD" format ? Capturing from MiniDV camcorder in DV AVI is more like copy data then real capturing. It is same format as stored on tape inside camcorder. No loss, no re-encoding. In the process of creating DVD, DV AVI file is encoded to MPEG2 that is used on DVD.

[Oliver]

jg0001,

This may or may not help you, but I ran into an audio problem converting my home DV tapes to DVD. The resulting AVI would have video only, no audio at all. When I viewed the file's properties, it showed that it had an odd audio track at 44.3Khz, 12-bit. What I finally figured out was that at the beginning of my DV tape there was apparently some garbage video data, probably about 15 frames or so, that would corrupt the resulting file copied to my harddrive. So instead of starting the capture before or at the same time I hit play on my camera, I would click to start the capture for about 1/2 a second after I press play on the camera to skip over the bad data at the beginning of the tape. I use WinDV to capture with, and have been very happy with it, you might also try that. Good luck.

[PhreakPhish]

BTW: What do you call "REAL DVD" format ? Capturing from MiniDV camcorder in DV AVI is more like copy data then real capturing. It is same format as stored on tape inside camcorder. No loss, no re-encoding. In the process of creating DVD, DV AVI file is encoded to MPEG2 that is used on DVD.

I am capturing from a 8mm tape. By what I mean as "real dvd" format is mpeg2. When I use Pinnacle to capture in setting I hit High Quality DVD mpeg2. Witch is what I was calling "real dvd" format. But when you make the DVD from Pinnacle, or TMPGenc Author I am losing Audio Video Sync. But after I shrink my my Audio file that I have Demuxed from TMPGenc or TMPGenc DVD Source Creator and create a new mpeg2 it works fine. For some reason I am guessing the format is changing. That is why I said I dont think Pinnacle is actually capturing my video at the correct DVD Hight Quality mpeg2 format which is what I was calling "real dvd" format.

[donpedro]

When I use Pinnacle to capture in setting I hit High Quality DVD mpeg2.

Ohh !!! You are capturing in MPEG2 ? That is totaly different story all together. jg0001, is capturing in DV-AVI.

[PhreakPhish]

I belive he could still use the method I am using to sync the sound . As long as there is way to grabe the audio out of his avi file.

[hiptune]

for analog capture into Studio 8 (or 9), get the ADVC-100 analog to DV converter.

That will end your sync problems for good.

Jeff

[ccteng]

I believe jg0001 was capturing an analog tape which has the macrovision protection code through the DV camcorder. My experience is that if I capture an analog tape without a sofisticate protective scheme passing through a DV camcorder, I have no problem at all with the audio sync . But it is a different story if I capture a well protected tape. I believe the protective code generate some kind of garbage either in the audio or video stream and create the sync problem. In this situation, the DV AVI file was in perfect sync, but the encoded MPEG2 file was out of sync after 20 minutes or so. A similar problem would happen if I transfered a DV tape with some bad data region on it. The DV AVI file seems OK but the encoded MPEG file would be out of sync after the bad region. I am still looking for a remedy for this problem. Hope this help.

[jg0001]

Scenalyzer to the rescue!!!

Reporting back: Scenalyzer DID the job perfectly. I used the same DV tapes I had for my test with Pinnacle 8 and they worked without any loss of sync whatsoever. I didn't make any real changes to the default setup (DV type 2 Premiere...) except to change the max file size to UNLIMITED (I'm running WinXP with a TERAbyte of harddrive space) and to turn off scene identification (which I performed later in Studio).

Wow, I appreciate all the suggestions. I think Phreak's insertion of his questions caused a little confusion about what my problem was, but that's okay (my problem occurs at the point of import, not at the point of conversion to MPEG2). Just to clear it up, here's my story again:

-I was trying to IMPORT from my miniDV camera a miniDV tape that was recorded from a non-commercial VHS tape INTO Pinnacle Studio 8 AS a DV file (a wedding video made 10 years ago-- no protections as a family friend made it). While I never had any problems transferring in my own home movies recorded WITH that camera, this tape just wouldn't come in without audio sync problems EVEN though playing the tape back on the miniDV camera never shows any sync issue.

-At the suggestion of the group, I tried out Scenalyzer on the same tape and it worked perfectly the first time. After importing the file (as DV), I brought it into Studio 8 and let it do the scene detection based on Video Content. Everything is flawless and on my PC in DV-AVI format now.

-Regarding one of the previous posts -- there was a bunch of crap at the beginning of the tape and that could have been what threw off Studio. My home movies were recorded on new tapes and had no 'garbage' or static at the beginning.

[donpedro]

I am glad that you found workaround.