Capturing directly to MPEG-2 - Is this a viable option?

[MrMungus]

The reason I'm asking is because I can capture to DV AVI now and I'm thinking about getting the VideoOh card to capture directly to MPEG-2 (to remove the AVI > MPEG-2 step) and I'm wondering how hard it is to EDIT MPEG-2 after capture.

Also, what editors can edit MPEG-2? Are there freeware editors or would I have to buy something?

TIA

[housepig]

it will depend on what quality is acceptable to you.

with my card and my software, I can capture straight to mpeg-2, however the quality takes enough of a hit compared to capturing in avi and encoding, so I end up doing it the long way.

you may find that your combination of hardware and software gives you great results, and there are plenty of people here who swear by their captures, but it's a case of individual perception.

[MrMungus]

it will depend on what quality is acceptable to you.

with my card and my software, I can capture straight to mpeg-2, however the quality takes enough of a hit compared to capturing in avi and encoding, so I end up doing it the long way.

you may find that your combination of hardware and software gives you great results, and there are plenty of people here who swear by their captures, but it's a case of individual perception.

Thanks for the reply.

Which card?

Also, do you know anything about the viability of editing MPEG-2 instead of editing DV AVI's?

[adam]

That's the rub. Even if you are satisfied with the quality of the mpeg2 capture, editing is always going to be a problem. As far as free editors, the only one I know of is TMPGenc using its mpeg tools and that is extremely cumbersome to use (go through make all cuts, then go back and join them all) and horribly problematic. I'm honestly not sure whether its possible to make say 3 edits without it loosing sync in TMPGenc. Mpeg2 is just inherantly difficult to edit because the only actual pictures are the I frames, which appear maybe once every 15 frames. This is the only place you can cut directly, any other place and the program has to manually insert an I frame and then re-encode all the remaining frames in the GOP, which usually results in errors and sync problems.

Womble mpeg2vcr is a pretty cheap mpeg editor and M2 Edit is a more high end app but honestly, neither of these work all that well either.

I'd definitely do some experimenting with your existing mpeg files and mpeg editors to determine if they suit your editing needs. If not then I wouldn't bother upgrading your hardware for mpeg2 capturing.

[MrMungus]

That's the rub. Even if you are satisfied with the quality of the mpeg2 capture, editing is always going to be a problem. As far as free editors, the only one I know of is TMPGenc using its mpeg tools and that is extremely cumbersome to use (go through make all cuts, then go back and join them all) and horribly problematic. I'm honestly not sure whether its possible to make say 3 edits without it loosing sync in TMPGenc. Mpeg2 is just inherantly difficult to edit because the only actual pictures are the I frames, which appear maybe once every 15 frames. This is the only place you can cut directly, any other place and the program has to manually insert an I frame and then re-encode all the remaining frames in the GOP, which usually results in errors and sync problems.

Womble mpeg2vcr is a pretty cheap mpeg editor and M2 Edit is a more high end app but honestly, neither of these work all that well either.

I'd definitely do some experimenting with your existing mpeg files and mpeg editors to determine if they suit your editing needs. If not then I wouldn't bother upgrading your hardware for mpeg2 capturing.

Thanks Adam. Useful info. I thought I'd heard in the past that editing MPEG-2 video is a pain and my fears are being confirmed.

One reason I'm asking is because it seems like there would be some benefit not only to not having to do the DV AVI > MPEG-2 conversion but also because I'm assuming that if you go directly to MPEG-2, you also can skip the Source > DV compression. In other words, is getting around the DV compression (on capture) even an issue I should care about? Seems like any compression = bad...but maybe it doesn't matter (?)

[lacywest]

I didn't read all the posts in this thread ... but for video capture with my ADVC 50 I use InterVideo WinDVD Creator 2. I use the High Quality DVD compliant setting ... my system can handle that highest setting WinDVD Creator 2 has.

For editing ... removing commercials ... Womble mpeg-vcr works extremely well ... it is to me ... the best program for removing commercials.

Gets right up to the edge before the commercial starts and right at the edge before the show starts again. It doesn't re-encode ... just makes a copy.

Smallville episodes have never been better.

If I use my Panasonic DMR-E50S ... and record on DVD-RAM ... the VRO file is also seen in Womble mpeg-vcr for editing out the commercials.

Okay ... Smurf has made a post.

If your video capturing TV Shows and want the commercials removed ... Womble mpeg-vcr ... will do a very ... very good job.

Try removing the commercials with TMPGEnc DVD Author and after seeing the results ... you will look for a better tool ... Womble mpeg-vcr is the tool I use.

[lordsmurf]

Is it viable? Maybe. It depends on what you call "editing" and what hardware/softwre is being used.

I've got a Matrox RT2500 on my wishlist. Supposedly it can realtime capture, render and edit MPEG-2 files with great ease.

I can "edit" MPEG-2 from my ATI AIW card, but I call it splicing, not editing. I remove commercials with a quick splice in Womble MPEG-VCR (MPEG-2 edition). Editing is really more advanced than just chopping out unwanted pieces.

There is no blanket statement of "MPEG editing bad" without considering all the variables.

About DV, you are 100% correct. Needlessly compressing video to DV format is redundant and harmful to the video. If it was shot in DV format on a DV camera, that's one thing. DV is the source. If it was analog (VHS, S-VHS, whatever), then compressing to DV prior to recompressing to MPEG is a waste. If you want to edit analog source, then capture as an uncompressed AVI source (or one of the "lossless" compressors like MJPEG or HuffYUV) and then edit, converting lastly to MPEG (and entirely skip needless DV conversion).

[CrustyCurmudgeon]

I use the WinTV PVR 250 from Hauppauge for NTSC to MPEG-2 captures. It has a hardware encoder so it can go up to 12Mbps for best quality. It came with a 'cuts only' mpeg editor (NanoEdit from NanoCosmos) that does great, no recompression. It's fast and reliable. The PVR also came with the Ulead DVD Movie factory (SE) that's usable, but not terribly good at actually burning a DVD. I use Nero express and IMGtool.exe to burn the image files from my HD. Never a coaster that way.

[Gazorgan]

You can change the GOP to make editing very easy. You also make the size large in comparison to a TMPGEnc encoded file.

For capturing a Movie or premium cable channel it's fine. If you have to edit out commercials, your out of luck. Most prime time shows come in 4 parts (1/2 hour, 3 is you don't want the intro) or 5 (1 hour show, sometimes 6 pieces during sweeps month). You can Author it that way and it will play fine (there is a hiccup at the breaks, but there would be with the commercials cut out anyway).

[epo]

I do only MPEG-2 captures and lots of (from PVR-250 and DVB-S broadcasts). HW encoders do great work today, but twice a bitrate should be used, compared to SW or pro HW encoders (90-100 min/DVD from PVR and up to 3 hr/DVD from DVB-S, same visual quality). But this should not hurt as much as encoding times for really good results with TMPGEnc do.
My toolpack is:

Womble MPG2VCR - does excellent work, but may have problems with sync. Does all mux/demux, cuts/joins only reencoding affected GOP, if bitrates mach (so editing on any frame and no actual quality loss). People tell tough, that sync problems are resolved now. Other than just trimming, I do audio editing with

Goldwave (it is very easy to calculate frame points in PAL with exactly 40 ms frames ) and reencode with

TooLame.

Bitrate Viewer - to make bitrates mach

Ulead DVD MF2 - for most of authoring

IFOEdit - for authoring with nonstandard resolutions and subtitles

Nero - for burning (Ulead sometimes makes bad disks if some other work is done, while burning. Mostly I'm capturing, burning and doing my work at the same time)

Normal sequence is PVAStrumento(DVB specific tool)->Womble->Ulead->Nero

All these on I-Frame editors (there are many) have one problem. (At least for me) Audio gets all messed up, if cut is made on silent point.

[Barnabas]

Get yourself a Hauppauge PVR-250 which does real-time encoding via hardware. Set the capture profile to "program" rather than "DVD" and you can edit to your heart's content. TMPGEnc DVD Author will author and edit the captures fine. Mpeg-VCR will also edit the files correctly, as welll as several other fine editors. It IS possible to edit mpeg-2 real-time captured files correctly, provided the file does not have problems to start with, such as dropped frames due to a poor source tape. Old timers here can tell you that capturing from video tape is the hardest to do with out sync issues.