Composite signal length (ADVC-100)

[Will Hay]

As some of you know I bought an ADVC-100, having spent the last eighteen months successfully using my ATI Radeon 64mb DDR ViVo.
I loved the ATI, it was my best hardware bargain but having used firewire and in advance of converting some poor quality tapes felt the time was right for the Canopus.
I've briefly documented my disapointment with the ADVC-100 insofar as I'm getting significant red colour bleed, which is completely unacceptable and not worthy of wasting a DVDr.
I never got this with the ATI.
Yes, I can hear all you ATI supporters already....
"....whoo-hoo, there's the proof, the Canopus is not the best kit there is"
Yes, okay, so I can alter the colour, saturation, brightness (the ADVC-100 is rather dark as well as poor at red colour representation) in TMPGEnc but as I don't get it with my ATI would like to determine the source of the problem.
I was wondering if it was my signal.
I haven't a VCR directly connected to the Canopus.
Instead, I have a VCR in the fornt room which runs up to a box in the loft and is distributed to each of my bedrooms.
My computer is in one of the bedrooms.
I 'capture' a TV signal from one of the TV's in the bedroom, ie the signal comes from the loft to the TV and then out via a scart to composite adapter.
I suppose the test would be to hook up a VCR directly to the Canopus but I wondered whether the length the signal has to run would affect the colour balance.
I know I'm clutching at straws as the ATI doesn't have this problem, but I'm close to selling it and going back to the ATI (which I really don't want to do, I love the risk free 'capture' process of the Canopus).
Will

[Will Hay]

Could I just re-iterate that my signal path is...


VCR > TV > ADVC-100

Could it be that the TV is altering the signal, and ultimately the colour representation?
If this is the case then I'm buggered, as I'll not be able to capture directly from the TV again
Will

[johns0]

It depends on if the signal goes thru the tv tuner,do a 1 minute capture with one of the colors cranked up or down,then do a capture bypassing the tv straight from the vcr to your capture card,putting the signal thru 2 composite signal circuits might lead to more fringing and weird effects.How does the picture compare with straight tv capture to vcr thru tv capture and vcr straight to capture?

[gmatov]

Will,

How do you mean VCR>TV>ADVC? You have an out lead on the TV?

If you are on cable, split the VCR out before the TV. Or after the "box". I don't think the signal is actually going into the TV tuner then back out, scart or no. (Of course I could be wrong, don't know Euro system.)

Hell,I don't even know if the ADVC has a tuner in it.

Cheers,

George

[Will Hay]

How does the picture compare with straight tv capture to vcr thru tv capture and vcr straight to capture?

It's the same, ie. piss-poor
If I put the TV on BBC1 (ie. not the video channel and ultimately not the signal from downstairs) the 'red' is far too saturated.
If I set the TV to channel 7 (ie. the video channel/whatevers playing on the VCR downstairs) the reds are just as bad.
Will

[Will Hay]

Will,

How do you mean VCR>TV>ADVC? You have an out lead on the TV?

If you are on cable, split the VCR out before the TV. Or after the "box". I don't think the signal is actually going into the TV tuner then back out, scart or no. (Of course I could be wrong, don't know Euro system.)

Hell,I don't even know if the ADVC has a tuner in it.

Cheers,

George

I stick a scart adapter into the back of the TV which is effectively a male scart lead which returns to three female scart connectors, like this:



In one of these female ports I have a single scart adapter with the three composites in, like this:



This then outputs to the canopus via the conventional yellow, red and white composites.
This was the setup I used with the ATI and had none of these 'red' issues.
I'll try taking the VCR signal and plug it directly into the ADVC and see if it improves.
Will

[Bondiablo]

First thing I'd try is, like you said, connect it directly to the VCR. Have you checked the jumper settings on the bottom of the ADVC? Also, what DV codec are you using to play the files you've captured? I'm assuming it's the MS codec but what version and have you tried playing them with the Canopus DV Codec? That can make a big difference and it's the only one that's easy to force. Just use Scenalyzer Live to capture to a "Canopus Compatible" file or change the FourCC code of your captured files to CDVC. If all else fails you could always try the Datavideo DAC-100. It's fussier about the input quality but supposedly the colors are more natural.

[trevlac]

If you do not get the same problem with the ATI, using the same setup (VCR as a tuner), then it maybe the DV codec.

A better (decompression) DV codec may help the problem.


Please note: I recently have seen bad red color bleed on a TV I have. I suspect my cables and connections. This is deffinately the 1st place to look. Does the ADVC have an s-video input? Have you tried that?

[Will Hay]

Does the ADVC have an s-video input? Have you tried that?

It does, yes, but I don't have a s-video enabled VHS layer.
I do have an s-video cable however, are you saying I can run the cable from the s-video connection on the scart adapter I have (see picture above) and run it to the canopus as an input?
I'll give it a try.
Thanks,
Will

[Will Hay]

First thing I'd try is, like you said, connect it directly to the VCR. Have you checked the jumper settings on the bottom of the ADVC? Also, what DV codec are you using to play the files you've captured? I'm assuming it's the MS codec but what version and have you tried playing them with the Canopus DV Codec? That can make a big difference and it's the only one that's easy to force. Just use Scenalyzer Live to capture to a "Canopus Compatible" file or change the FourCC code of your captured files to CDVC. If all else fails you could always try the Datavideo DAC-100. It's fussier about the input quality but supposedly the colors are more natural.

Thanks for the tip.
I've downloaded the codec, but I'm a little stuck now
It's for playback, right?
How do I ensure it's used during playback?
The FourCC code?
I don't think there's much I could get wrong on the btm of the ADVC is there?
Thanks
Will

[trevlac]

I can run the cable from the s-video connection on the scart adapter I have (see picture above) and run it to the canopus as an input?

That's what I was thinking. Maybe the RCA jack on the ADVC has a problem. It's worth the cost of an s-video cable to give it a test.

Trev

PS: I have not tested out my red-shift problem. For me it has nothing to do with an ADVC seeing I don't have one. I think my problem is due to either the output from my satalite receiver or a cheap video switch I am using. I don't see the problem in my other receiver which I capture from. Those damb connections...

PS: It could still be the codec thing. This however should be a subtle problem. PAL DV is 4:2:0 same as MPEG2, so I don't think it should jump out at you. This is about all I know. If I said any more, I'd be talking out my arse.

[Will Hay]

Well, the s-video cable idea works perfectly and totally eliminates the saturated red problem.....










..it captures in B&W!!!!!!!!!!
Will

[witchboard]

My ADVC-100 came with a composite to SVideo cable in the box. Well, kind of, I noticed the SVideo connection had more pins than the norm, so I couldn't plug it into the front of the ADVC-100. The manual recommended that I use this cable when possible. If you plugged your SVideo connection in the back, maybe try the front? I just got mine, so I'm grasping at straws here. I haven't even captured more than 5 minutes with it yet. Still playing around.

[Will Hay]

Erm, not quite sure how to put this, so for now, I'll just add:





It would appear I hadn't slid the input/output switch far enough to 'output'.
Oops

There is still some saturated red but nothing like I was suffering before plus the picture has lightened dramatically.
Man, I feel so dumb.
Thanks for all your help (I will still try the 'direct VCR' idea, but I may have solved it)
Will

[racerxnet]

Composite=Crap Svideo=Better Component=Best

Y/C versus composite video -

Super VHS and HI8 VCRs manufacture two kinds of video,
composite and Y/C (sometimes called S for super). The Y stands
for luminance, the monochrome parts of your TV picture. The C
stands for the chrominance, the color parts of your picture. Put
them both together and you have a full color picture (actually a
black-and-white picture with color painted over the top of it).
In composite video, the color and luminance signals have
been combined into one signal traveling over one wire. With Y/C,
the color signals travel over a separate wire from the luminance
signals, using two wires instead of one.


Actually composite video travels over two wires, one is a
shield or a ground wire which nobody talks about. In the case of
Y/C, there are two ground wires that nobody talks about.
So what's the big advantage of Y/C over composite? There
is a basic law of electronics that says, "The less you mess with
a signal, the less you screw it up." When you combine the color
and luminance signals, you damage them a little. When you
separate them (as a TV and most video devices must do in order to
use the signals), you damage them even further. In fact, VCRs
costing under $2000 generally drub the detail out of the signal
when separating it. Industrial VCRs costing $6000 or so have
comb filters and Faroudja circuits that delicately separate the
color from the luminance with minimal injury to either. The
damage is seen as reduced picture sharpness (resolution) and
color artifacts (moire and color dot crawl).


In a nutshell, it is better to keep the color and luminance
signals separate as you go from camera, computer, character
generator, or other source, through your switchers, proc amps,
TBCs, and into your video editors or recorders. If possible,
keep the Y/C signal separate all the way to your TV monitors.
Before we get too excited about Y/C, we should confront the
sad truth that Charlie Couch Potato is unlikely to notice the
difference one way or the other. Those of us who take video
seriously will discern the color dot crawl, moire, and soft
picture, and will find it annoying. And those of us who edit our
videos, will see the mayhem multiply before our eyes.

In other words, use the Svideo cable or RGB connections when possible with the shortest lead feasible.

[trevlac]

In a nutshell, it is better to keep the color and luminance
signals separate as you go from camera, computer, character
generator, or other source, through your switchers, proc amps,
TBCs, and into your video editors or recorders. If possible,
keep the Y/C signal separate all the way to your TV monitors.
Before we get too excited about Y/C, we should confront the
sad truth that Charlie Couch Potato is unlikely to notice the
difference one way or the other. Those of us who take video
seriously will discern the color dot crawl, moire, and soft
picture, and will find it annoying. And those of us who edit our
videos, will see the mayhem multiply before our eyes.

In other words, use the Svideo cable or RGB connections when possible with the shortest lead feasible.

True, True, .... but unfortunately with the low quality(price) switches/monitors(TVs)/etc. we have, sometimes it's hard to say what is going on inside the box.

Will clearly gets a PAL component feed (unless he has a digital tuner). His TV must do a good job at comb filtering. His connector probably recombines the signal for the yellow RCA out. The ADVC then has to again break it back out. I'd say the color shift happens because there is a delay introduced in the R-Y component. I'm not sure the problem he describes is due to the inability of the ADVC to comb the Y and R-Y appart. Although seperate/join/seperate can't be a good thing for a signal. Also not sure why it looks ok for the ATI.

Just some thoughts from someone who likes to read about this stuff, but doesn't really know what he is talking about.

BTW: Thanks for pointing some things out on that raid post. That other poster is sometimes full of cr@p. Not sure he'll admit it though.

[Will Hay]

Thanks trevlac, and thanks to all for all the help.
As soon as I shake this bug and feel a little better I'll capture the same footage with the ATI and canopus and post some screenshots.
Will

[lordsmurf]

Composite=Crap Svideo=Better Component=Best.

I used to think that too. But which wire is best will sometimes depend on the source being played. Crap can look better on crap (composite), as compared to s-vid or component, especially if the signal damage is compounded severely.

Something I'm actually dealing with on my current restoration project. Huge pain to deal with. Only thing saving my butt is the weak Sima SED-CM and some composite cables. S-video and full TBC kill the quality even further.

BTW: Thanks for pointing some things out on that raid post. That other poster is sometimes full of cr@p. Not sure he'll admit it though

Hey now! My RAID experiences sucked. Just sharing. Sheesh. It's in the other post for you to read. What's better for you wasn't working better for me.

[Will Hay]

BTW: Thanks for pointing some things out on that raid post. That other poster is sometimes full of cr@p. Not sure he'll admit it though.....

You've been great and all with your help in my thread (and polite with it too), but with comments flying around like this it often amazes me how the smurf-king manages to keep his temper.
He must be a saint.

For what it's worth I too used RAID 0.
I have a couple of Maxtor 80gb D740X's on a Promise and incredibly, like smurfy, I was never happy with the frame loss.
All this went away when I split and captured to a freshly formatted single drive.
Never did figure it but both here and over at matroxusers I was sold the heaven that is supposed to be RAID 0.
Regrettably it never worked for me, I never did figure out why.
Perhaps some of us aren't mean to be blessed
Will

[arcorob]

Hi Will,

I have the ADVC and just want to point out I get PERFECT capture BUT I did find that I had to use the little supplied S-VIDEO for the video input and not straight RCA plugs. WHy ? WHo knows, an ADVC quirk I guess. Otherwise I have had awesome results with both INPUT and more importantly , EXPORT to tape. This something ATI (which I have) is piss poor at as it require the monitor to be put in TV mode, etc etc...

I am glad I purchased.

[racerxnet]

Hi Will Hay,

If you look at my last post regarding the issues with dropped frames using a raid card, I gave the technical answer to why it occurs. It is not the fault of the card, but a poor choice for the given application. All high end editing units are configured with a raid card for input/output throughput. Here is a direct quote from the post.

" Smurf,

The reason the Promise card did not work and dropped the frames is because it is a software based solution. In other words, it relies on the interupt of the processor for its needs. I can prove this by watching the API with my Soyo Dragon plus. It has the PDC 20265 chipset on it. It is a software based solution, just as your TX series card is. You would not believe how many requests are used to run this card. That is why all onboard (or hardware based) cards are far superior to your TX solution. You essentially shot yourself in the foot before you started installing the card for the intended purpose. The 3ware cards all have an onboard processor, eliminating the interupt request on the CPU.

I hope this sheds some light on the subject for you, it is accurate and to the point. Your position regarding raid cards is completlely inaccurate and does a dis-service to all who look to you for advice."


I am not trying to slam Smurf, I am giving him a technical reason why the problems occur. I detest poor advice regarding the raid card usage without the knowledge to explain why it did not work. When people look up to someone as a mentor in the learning process, I try to do the homework and provide solid advice based on the true reasons for failure.

I do appreciate all that Smurf is and has done for the people at this site. Good advice is golden!!!

MAk

[Bondiablo]

Thanks for the tip.
I've downloaded the codec, but I'm a little stuck now
It's for playback, right?
How do I ensure it's used during playback?
The FourCC code?
I don't think there's much I could get wrong on the btm of the ADVC is there?
Thanks
Will

Yes, the codec is for playback but that's all it's used for when you're converting to another format so it will make a difference in your encoding as well. What you can't use it for is editing and saving in DV format. If you use Scenalyzer to capture to a "canopus compatible" file or change the fourcc code of the files you've already captured your files will ONLY be able to be played with the Canopus codec, makes it pretty easy to ensure. I think there's a little program in the tools section for changing the fourcc code but it may have been included with something else, I don't remember where I got it. If I remember correctly that only works with Type 2 files, if you try it on Type 1 files you lose the audio, haven't tried this in quite a while.

One more thing, if you're using TMPGEnce, check the general environmental settings. There are a couple options in there specific to the Canopus codec.

[trevlac]

Composite=Crap Svideo=Better Component=Best.

I used to think that too. But which wire is best will sometimes depend on the source being played. Crap can look better on crap (composite), as compared to s-vid or component, especially if the signal damage is compounded severely.

....

BTW: Thanks for pointing some things out on that raid post. That other poster is sometimes full of cr@p. Not sure he'll admit it though

Hey now! My RAID experiences sucked. Just sharing. Sheesh. It's in the other post for you to read. What's better for you wasn't working better for me.

On #1 I couldn't agree more. For example, going from composite to Y/C to composite to Y/C is probably going to do more damage than just sticking with composite. Don't know until you try it.

On #2 Sorry I did not read your other posts. You really didn't say much in that one but "raid sucks". Like racerxnet, I really respect all of the work you have done and time you have spent to try to help newbies. It just bugs me when anyone makes comments like that without some sort of backing. I don't know if raid would work for everyone, but it has been the best upgrade I've ever done. I think BJ_M pointed it out a while ago.


@Will Hay

Generally, I try not to dispute smurf. He puts in great effort to help people, some who can not take the time to try somethings themselves. Unfortunately, he has put himself up as a target, because he takes the tone that he knows it all. His site is great and he gives good detail/reasons/circumstances for what he says. His posts sometimes leave a bit.

In contrast, pointing out, as above, that s-video is not always better is great! Anyone who wants absolutes doesn't want to think about what is going on.

So in summary, Baldrick is a saint.
==

[rhegedus]

As soon as I shake this bug and feel a little better I'll capture the same footage with the ATI and canopus and post some screenshots.
Will

I've been capturing all of this seasons Top Gear programs and I'll be doing the same for this Sunday's episode. Fancy doing a comparison of captures to see if different setups make a difference?

[Will Hay]

Hi acro,

I have the ADVC and just want to point out I get PERFECT capture BUT I did find that I had to use the little supplied S-VIDEO for the video input and not straight RCA plugs. WHy ? WHo knows, an ADVC quirk I guess.

So if I understand you correctly you run the yellow composite from the source but plug it into the supplied Canopus adapter (and then into the unit), rather than the yellow composite 'in' (directly on the ADVC)?
If I have it right I'll give it a try tonight, thanks.
Will

[Will Hay]

As soon as I shake this bug and feel a little better I'll capture the same footage with the ATI and canopus and post some screenshots.
Will

I've been capturing all of this seasons Top Gear programs and I'll be doing the same for this Sunday's episode. Fancy doing a comparison of captures to see if different setups make a difference?

What, so you can gloat?
No, piss off
Will











actually, it depends on how well Leeds do against Fulham in teh afternoon
Seriously, sure, I'll capture the lot and then you upload a pic and I'll match it with Power DVD and upload to the same thread.
Let me know what time it's on (BBC2, right?), and also whether you'll encode the clip first or just take a screenshot of the avi.

[lordsmurf]

he has put himself up as a target, because he takes the tone that he knows it all.

I assure you I don't know it all. A bunch, but nowhere near all.
Some of it is useful knowledge, some is useless trivia.
Byproduct of my chosen profession.



:P

[arcorob]

Hi Will !

Yes, exactly. I have a funny story about that too.

The day I first tested my ADVC i was very disappointed. I was using a straight RCA (L R audio and VIdeo ) plugs and experienced the same color bleed you mentioned. I said "This is crap". So then I noticed the small supplied adapter plug and said "Okay, i'll try it" well, I hooked it to the RCA Video lead then went to plug it in to the ADVC.

Now you know, the AUDIO plugs are in the front for INPUT. SO seeing the S-VIDEO connection in the front I tried to connect. It would not plug in. I looked at the pins, looked at the plug and said "This can't be" I said "Dang, they sent the wrong plug"

Took me a half hour of stumbling before I finally caught on (In the manul ) that the S-VIDEO IN is in the back (poor design.....)

After that , it works excellent. I have copied tapes and home movies IN to the Computer using Vegas Video. I have also used the PRINT TO DV funtion of vegas which lets me copy from the timeline out to a VHS tape.

Best of luck to you !

[trevlac]

@Texas Smurf

I love it! I want one! Got an ebay link ?

I hope someday I qualify for the "red tips".

Cheers,

Trev

Edit Never mind, I found them. Ebay.

It's begining to look alot like christmas, ho ho ho.


@Will

I've been trying for that "piss off" for a few days now. There you go and give rhegedus right in front of me. You bastard.

[Will Hay]

Okay, the season might be a factor here but man, I LOVE this site
Will