Conflicting opinions about DVD recorders

[jimdevo]

Hello and forgive me, this is my first post here although I am not neccesarily a "newbie" as I have successfully recorded DVD's on my PC. I really hate the long times involved with processing so I am going to buy a DVD recorder that will be used for archiving only. In other words it won't ever be hooked up to my TV. I also have done extensive research about DVD recorders here and elsewhere on the net. I am narrowing it down to the Sony RDR GX7 or the Panasonic E60 (for firewire input). I keep getting conflicting opinions in my research though about the different recorders out there. Seems some people are just fans of a certain brand and bad mouth anything that's not that brand. That is really frustrating for someone like me who is trying to find unbiased opions. It's a big investment for me. I am copying old home videos and some are nearly 20 years old. I believe both the Panny and Sony have TBC and can make the video look as good or better than the original. Any comments? Price isn't reallya factor although the Panny is cheaper. But I don't really have use for the RAM I don't believe. Any comments would be great. Thanks and pray for our troops in Iraq. I have a nephew there and his stories would shock you.

[piano632]

I think all the DVD recorders have some sort of TBC or image stabilizer. I would go for the one that has the most features you want. There really isn't one that stands out way above the rest. If you plan to use the firewire, I'd go with the Sony as it is less finicky about what is connected to it (I believe the Panasonic has some trouble recognizing certain cameras/PCs connected to firewire).

[RabidDog]

dont dismiss Dvd-ram so easily, if price is no object then ram is a very good solution as it will last longer (and is certified to do so) than the other two. Its just that the blanks are about double the price. panny have been making dvd recorders longer than sony ... try b4 U by. pray 4 all n iraq.

[FulciLives]

Dual layer DVD recordable formats will be available sometime next year and I wouldn't be surprised if stand alone recorders eventually adopt this although I figure it will be at least another year before that happens but it is worth waiting for if you ask me ... at least as far as stand alone DVD recorders go.

Your VHS collection can wait another year ... I mean one more year isn't gonna make them turn to dust!

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[DaveS]

in my limited experience w/ my somewhat new sony, it has been a very good unit (RDR-GX7, as the only model currently available in the US.

You mention that you are converting your own tapes, some of which are 20 yrs old. I would assume from that that they are analog tapes. If so, the firewire input won't be what you want as you will need to use your analog output from your vcr (s video or composite, etc.) into the recorder. Using the analog input to the recorder will pass it through the TBC and any other analog correctors the unit has (and for the TBC, it may not be quite as extensive as standalone TBC, but may be enough). Even if your VCR can convert the analog to digital and put it out on the firewire, you would be missing out on the features provided by the recorder that way.

In terms of whether they are all the same, they aren't. For example, what sold me on the Sony, which costs more than others and doesn't even have a HD, was the spec on the analog to digital conversion, which is done at 12 bits 108 mhz. I think some of the others may be 10 bits and 54 mhz. I can't tell you how much of a difference that will make in how the DVDs you record will look, but my guess is that it would make a noticable difference using analog source as the input. For me and my old tapes, my preference was to squeeze as much as possible out of the tapes and so went w/ the sony. I don't feel I have a big need for time shifting, and do any real editing on the PC, so no HD wasn't that much of a big deal for me. (and for big time shifting, I would go w/ a unit w/ the Tivo program guides and HD based on everyone's great reviews of tivo as a guide, but I'm sure others are ok).

I have noticed that the sony doesn't always interoperate 100% w/ other devices on the firewire. For example, it can receive video signals from my JVC deck via firewire, and successfully told the JVC deck to rewind, but didn't know when the JVC deck had found the start of the digital tape. So, one touch dubbing is out, but I can pretty easily work around that - it would have been a nice luxary but it doesn't work (in my one or two tests). Sony's response was that they can only really track down these problems for an interconnected Sony device - my take is that there aren't standards (yet?) for all of the deck controls over firewire or that sony augments them w/ it's own.

In terms of waiting for consumer dual layer, I guess it comes down to a personal choice / preference w/ no right or wrong answer.

Good luck & keep us posted!

[piano632]

I think the 12-bit/108MHz or 10-bit/54MHz refers to digital-to-analog conversion upon playback, not for analog-to-digital during recording. Correct me if I'm wrong. I think they all use 8 bits during recording (including capture cards).

[davideck]

jimdevo - it sounds like you already have a DVD burner in your PC. Why not buy a real time MPEG2 capture card, like the Haupaugge PVR-250 or equivalent. I have also been transferring my old VHS tapes DVD. I am using this card because the process is quick, the video quality is outstanding, and I can still do some minor authoring whenever I want. I do have an external TBC, and that does make a big difference.

[donpedro]

Why not buy a real time MPEG2 capture card...

Tried it, still a lot of problems with out-off-sync and authoring.... That is advantage of DVD Recorders.

[DaveS]

I think the 12-bit/108MHz or 10-bit/54MHz refers to digital-to-analog conversion upon playback, not for analog-to-digital during recording. Correct me if I'm wrong. I think they all use 8 bits during recording (including capture cards).

Don't know but I'll try to find out...I did see one pretty detailed comparison of the major recorders maybe 2 mos. ago somewhere here...the scope of testing was limited by the nature of the tests, but the writeup was pretty good and this one person seemed to see a noticable difference in 'quality' of the sony unit's conversion over some of the others...I can't vouch at all for the objectivity or approach of the test, don't know what equipment it was on, can't say what this persons experience is., etc. but I thought it was a good writeup for what it was. Anyway, I'll post back if I find anything out...

[thoots]

jimdevo,

Yeah, we all have our biases, kinda hard not to. And, you betcha, most of us haven't gone out and bought a half-dozen machines and tried 'em side by side. So, glean from us what you can, and take each of us with an appropriately-sized "grain of salt."

Now, let me give you my perspective on the issues you raised:

I would agree with your narrowing things down to the Sony or Panasonic units. Personally, you won't see me considering any others.

Regarding DVD-RAM, I'll continue to yell from the highest mountains that whatever "rewritable" format any given machine might have, it's really a "non-issue" -- you just won't be using that to "archive" anything. Whether you've got DVD-RAM or DVD-RW or DVD+RW, somewhat less than maybe "half" of the home DVD players on the market at any given time are going to be able to read one of those things. I still believe that the only people who could possibly care about the "rewritable" format are those who intend to take those discs and transfer the captured video onto a computer. And, you're like me -- you have experience on the "computer" side of the story, and if you're like me, you probably think that people who would have anything to do with that anymore is either some sort of "professional," or has rocks in his or her head. Oh, not too politically correct, I'm sorry -- maybe let's leave it as one who has an amazing amount of free time to spend hours and hours and hours and hours working on individual DVD's.

OK, off that soapbox. Regarding firewire, I can't speak for that, except to reiterate what DaveS mentioned -- indeed, unless you've got some "digital camcorder" you intend to record from, firewire is probably a non-issue for you, as you aren't going to have any other kind of video that'll go into a DVD recorder via firewire. As for "compatibility" with whatever digital camcorder you might have, it sounds like the best advice there would be to buy from a dealer that accepts returns easily, then try it and see if it works or not.

Regarding picture quality, I have indeed seen one report that thought the Sony picture quality was the best overall. I'm not sure what the source material was or what any other variables might have been, but it sure seems best to "consider the source." I've got a hard time imagining the Sony being clearly better than a Panasonic if the source is a "VHS videocassette," for instance, as the VHS tape would certainly be the limiting factor. You stop a little short of mentioning what format your source video will be, so I'll leave the rest of that equation up to you.

However, I can give you my personal opinion of the picture quality I've seen on my Panasonic machines. I started with a setup much like you describe -- I bought a Panasonic DMR-E50, and didn't get that anywhere close to my "main" audio/video system. I've got it set up on my "computer table" along with a VHS VCR, and I monitor the goings-on with a Sharp 15-inch LCD TV set. (I note you mention that yours "won't ever be hooked up to" your TV -- bear in mind that you have got to monitor these recorders on a television monitor of some sort -- they use on-screen menus for many of their functions, at the very least...) At any rate, as I have written before, I had previously spent two years and untold thousands of dollars on computer hardware and software trying to make a decent-quality DVD, with just stinkingly AWFUL results. My captures looked fine, but I tried more than a dozen programs to encode the stuff to DVD, always trying to use the highest-quality bitrates, and the picture quality always came out looking like "worse than the slowest VHS speed." After popping a tape into the VCR and dubbing it to the DMR-E50, I played the thing back in my main system's DVD player, and I darn near broke down and cried, the picture quality was so good. I consider myself the most anxl-retentive, ultra-super-critical judge of ultimate picture quality, and I am swimmingly happy with the picture quality from my Panasonic recorders. I'm talking about ultimate-best-quality "XP" picture quality, and even pausing and frame-advancing through the recorded DVD's to judge the picture quality. If the picture quality satisfies me, I can't believe that it wouldn't satisfy most anyone else.

Finally, let me toss one more bit of perspective your way. My usual advice in regards to the Sony unit is "you could buy the Panasonic hard-drive model for that kind of money." And, perhaps the hard-drive business is something you've decided you wouldn't care about having. All I can tell you is how the concept of having that hard drive will grow on you as you put your shiny new hard-diskless machine to use. The hard drive opens up a whole host of editing options to you -- you can simply make a much more "finished product" with those options. And, if you're still recording stuff on a VCR in your "main system," it won't take you long to wonder "why the HECK am I still using that thing anymore?!???" It took me about a week to realize that I wanted one of the hard-drive units for my main system, BADLY. So, it took me a few months to dig up the dough, but as soon as I had enough in hand, I went out and got a Panasonic DMR-E80H, which I use to "time shift" TV programs with ease, and make WONDERFUL DVD recordings of the programs I decide I'd like to save. Between the E80 working on the broadcast stuff, and the E50 working on the VHS library, I keep both of those things humming daily!

Well, I hope this helps! By all means, just keep on asking more questions if you have them, and/or bring your thoughts to us, and ask if that's possible/reasonable/whatever. There are a bunch of folks here like me who would love to help you dive into the wondeful world of standalone DVD recording!

Good luck!

thoots

[lordsmurf]

I think all the DVD recorders have some sort of TBC or image stabilizer.

Actually, no, only a few do.

[indolikaa]

I am copying old home videos and some are nearly 20 years old.

Indolikaa wrote a thesis (just hasn't posted it yet) on his progress transferring a VHS/Beta collection that numbered nearly 2000 tapes. Many of those tapes were from the Format Wars glory days (1979-1983) and survived the extraordinarly dry climate of the high deserts of New Mexico. Just barely.

I used a Sony SLV-R5U for the VHS tapes and a Sony SL-HF2000 for the Beta tapes. These are Flagship models (I paid $1299 for the -R5U and about $1700 for the -HF2000) that were maintained meticulously and I still required a solid TBC to save some the oldest tapes.

I went straight for the DataVideo TBC-1000.

I am VERY happy with my results.

[louthewiz]

I bought a dmr-e20 cheap just for transferring my old vhs tapes to dvd and I can tell you that I am very happy with the results and I am waiting for the e-30 to go down in price to have a second recorder ,also I think the dvd ram is like having a hard drive without the expense .Also i have the s35 dvd player which also reads dvd ram just in case I need to transfer anything just my 2 cents

[DaveS]

Indolikaa wrote a thesis (just hasn't posted it yet) on his progress transferring a VHS/Beta collection that numbered nearly 2000 tapes.

say, if you get a chance or feel like it, posting the thesis would be pretty interesting...

[indolikaa]

say, if you get a chance or feel like it, posting the thesis would be pretty interesting...

I plan on it. Should be up later tonight!

UPDATE: Look for it this weekend.

[DaveS]

I think the 12-bit/108MHz or 10-bit/54MHz refers to digital-to-analog conversion upon playback, not for analog-to-digital during recording. Correct me if I'm wrong. I think they all use 8 bits during recording (including capture cards).

Don't know but I'll try to find out... I'll post back if I find anything out...

one of the sony cust service reps emailed me back and although the email was not that detailed, he basically said that the converter is used in both recording & playback. I would expect this to be true, e.g. there's only one d/a converter in the box so it would be used for both directions. I thought you needed 12 bits to do a 4:2:2 conversion, but I can't remember & don't know how the sony is doing the conversion. just thought I'd post back the sony response.

[jimdevo]

Hey guys
Thanks for all the great responses. A little extra info I forgot to include. My home videos are VHS and the reason for the firewire is because I have a mini DV. Almost everything I have is Sony from the VCR to the Vaio computer to the camcorder which is why I was also sorta leaning toward the RDR GX7. One other thing...THIS FORUM ROCKS. I have learned almost everything I know about burning DVD's, authoring, encoding, what works, and what doesn't from this forum. I don't know who started it or who runs it or whatever but wow what an unbelievable wealth of info and help this site provides. Thanks ya'll.

[donpedro]

I don't know who started it or who runs it or whatever but wow what an unbelievable wealth of info and help this site provides. Thanks ya'll.

I Believe it was Baldrick and you can use "Feedback" forum to thank him.

[markjj]

jimdevo.

I bought an E50 after much research and help from this site, for which I'm eternally grateful. I can only echo thoots comments. I've been really happy with my Panasonic and have transferred lots of footage from my HI8 and DV camera across using composite. I'm not exaggerating when I say I think the recordings seem to be better than the original source. I don't miss the absence of firewire on my model.

A former colleague recently asked me for advice on a recorder. He has 8mm, HI8 etc which he wanted to transfer to disc. This guy is very picky about his hardware (traditionally purchasing B&O AV equipment). He spent a considerable time with a local retailer and was sold on the HS2. He's had that a fortnight now and is over the moon.

I'd admit to being biased on the E50 and rightfully so but I respect other people's opinions on recorders and that's one thing that makes the forum so good.

Good luck with whatever you buy.