3 hours of video on a DVD?

[nyhack56]

Hi,

I am very new to this game and I have a few questions I hope someone can answer for me.

I have a few VHS tapes I want to put on DVD and they run around 3 hours. I've looked at web sites for this but to no avail. I'd figure I could ask here because you guys already do what I want to learn how to do.

How do you / can you guys fit 3 hours of video onto a standard DVD-R?

What does the picture generally look like?

Is there always going to be blocks of noise especially for 3 hours?

What bit rate do you use?

What program to you use to encode it?

Do you use Dolby AC3 audio?

Right now, I have a simple Avermedia Stereo capture card and PowerVCRII.


I hope someone can help.

Thanks,

Mark Hackenberg

[Don2050]

I am sure you will get alot of responses...thier are alot of people who do this on this site.

I will say that it depends on your source VHS tapes and type of video. ie...cartoons or real video. For cartoons I was easily able to get 3 hours of video on 1 DVD without noticable pixelation. I used TMPGEnc to encode, and set the bitrate around 2600 average I believe. You may need a little higher for real video or fast motion movies.... Also, it depends on what you will be watching the DVD on... big screen HDTV or 27" regular TV.......

For audio I just used mp2 audio. The resulting quality for cartoons at this level was excellent on a regular TV.

Goodluck...

[Craig Tucker]

It will fit providing you lower the bitrate enough, whether the subsequent reduction in quality is acceptable, then that is your decision. For home movies and important video's I try to keep it down to 90 minutes per DVD to maintain as much quality as possible.

Use a bitrate calculator to decide what bitrate you need for the duration of the movie then encode a few minutes of it, you can then decide if the quality is good enough before encoding the whole thing.

[nyhack56]

Oh OK thanks.

The tapes I have are sports tapes, boxing, wrestling, MMA, UFC, so motion is high. I'll be watching them on a regular 32" TV.

Anyone have anything to add? I'd like to learn as much as possible and I really appreciate your input.

[SquirrelDip]

Setting your video to half D1 (352x480 NTSC) will give better quality at the same bitrate. If you're capturing from VHS there is really no reason to go to full resolution. There is a good discussion here:

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=98177

[Gazorgan]

1/2 D1 video resolution is the way to go. Your source (VHS) has a lower resolution than DVD D1, and lower than DVD 1/2 D1 so don't worry about loss of quality: It can't be better than 1/2 D1 to start with.

You can get 4 hours on a DVD. Your Audio will be 2 channel AC3 (PCM is a disk hog, and MP2 isn't standard for DVD) at 128 kbs, maybe 192 kbs which doesn't take up much space over 3 hours.

[overloaded_ide]

How do you / can you guys fit 3 hours of video onto a standard DVD-R?
What does the picture generally look like?
Is there always going to be blocks of noise especially for 3 hours?
What bit rate do you use?
What program to you use to encode it?
Do you use Dolby AC3 audio?

Yes you can do 3 hrs. Although you can play with various settings and filter, your capturing VHS, SO VHS is the best quality you can get, though you may be able to make it look a bit better.

Mostley time is just a matter of bit rate. Higher rates are better quality and larger files, lower is poorer quality and smaller files. Then there is resolution, D1 half is probably all that's needed for VHS.

Depending what you do, their is no block or noise problems, or you can get tons! It depends on many factors.
Bit rate depends how large a file you need and the space you have to put it in basically. I go for 4 gig files for space, so the shorter the movie the higher the rate, or longer movies lower rates.

If it needs encoded most seem to like Tmpgenc plus. I capture to mpeg2 files directly and don't use an encoder much. Audio is captured in the mpeg2 file at 48,000hz.

Picture generaly looks like I am watching the tape or better.

Many ways to do things and settings to choose for best results.

As for 3 hours on a DVDr, you can get excellent quality for that length of time. I made a backup copy of Two Towers and Fellowship of the Ring, both movies are 3 hrs each. I did a full backup copy of my DVDs and both movies are perfect as far as I or anyone else here can tell. Granted I did start with a DVD as my source, but it goes to show 3 hours should work fine! I have 2 3hr DVDr's that look like comercail DVDs!

[handyguy]

I use a dvd recorder in LP mode so this gives me 4 hours on a dvd.

You could just use dvd2one to get it on one disk if you don't have a recorder.

[pijetro]

Although I agree with most people on capturing 352x480, and encoding for half D1, I don't have the same optimism as they do for quality. A lot depends on the tapes themselves. Unless you have footage that looks fantastic on tape, or that was recorded with high end equipment, you're gonna have an uphill battle to get up to the same quality..

Personally, I would either 1) cut out unnessary parts, to free up some time (thus allowing for more bitrate) 2) put it on two disks, or 3) live with what you get??

[holistic]

QUALITY is SUBJECTIVE

3 hours of video on a DVD is possible ,hell, 6 hours is but it looks like crap.
3 hours will require a bitrate of ~3200 with 192 audio.Great for cartoons, kids shows,dramas but I doubt it will satisfy you for sporting events.
Calc here (learn it) : https://www.videohelp.com/calc.htm

TMPGEnc is recommended because you can "force pictue" settings. ie: manually increase the bitrate on fast motion if necessary.
Audio conversion for AC3 is quick and cheap with BeSweet.
https://www.videohelp.com/tools?tool=92#comments
Unless your soundcard captures 48kHz (which i doubt) that too will need resampling from 44.1 -> 48 to be in DVD spec.
][

[FOO]

Don't forget that doing an IVTC buys 20% in bitrate
Make damned sure you do it Last

[SquirrelDip]

From the link I gave above:

The resolution of 352 X 576/480 also happens to be the official SVHS resolution.

So, capturing in half D1 will allow you to get more bang for your buck with regard to bitrate. Basically 2500 at half D1 is equal to 5000 at full D1. Captuing at a resolution beyond your source will not produce better results.

[Vejita-sama]

First the only supported SVCD resolution is 480x480/576, NOT 352x480/576. See the what is sections to the left.

There are 3 supported DVD resolutions:
720x480
352x480
352x240
(704x480 is also supported but used primarily for menus and subpictures)

Video quaility is a combination of resolution and bitrate. The higher the resolution and the higher the bitrate the better the quaility.

File size is a combination of bitrate and source runtime.

So you'll notice that bitrate is involved in both file size and quaility. If you lower the bitrate (to get more video per disc) you'll lower the quiality. However, at lower resolutions this lost in quaility is hard to notice, because you can still maintain a high bitrate per pixel ratio.

Image a 320x240 divx (or jpg) you d/loaded. It looks good right. Now blow it up to full screen 1280x1024, it looks like crap right. That's because the bitrate is to low to support that high of a resolution.

Even thou going from 720x480 to 352x480 sounds like a big hit the truth is that the human eye can really only pick up changes in the vertical. Given the poor quaility of most VHS tapes encoding to 352x480 tends to be the way to go.

Not sure if that helps or confuses the issue more

[nyhack56]

So, you are saying, for example, that 3 hours of 720x480 video recorded at 3000 b/s that is 4 GB roughly is equal to 3 hrs of 352x480 recorded at 6000 b/s?

If so that is amazing.

[SquirrelDip]

@Vejita-sama: Please read the quote again -> "official SVHS resolution" not SVCD resolution...

I agree totally with holistic in that quality is subjective. What I am saying is that if your source is tape as nyhack56 says in his original post that there is no benefit in capturing in full D1 resolution - his source is only, at best, half D1.

The file size is totally dependant upon the encoded bitrate so 352x480 encoded at 3000 will be the same size as 720x480 encoded at 3000. However, the quality of 352x480 encoded at 3000 should look as good as 720x480 encoded at 6000 (when your source is only 352x480).

[nyhack56]

lol I had it the other way around.

So, my next question would be about the pixelation.

At 8000 b/s of 720x480 there really isnt much pixelation, especially when I record a football game or wrestling match, something fast moving.

Does this hold true for 352x480 at 4000 b/s?

[SquirrelDip]

Yes, for a SVHS source 352x480 at 4000 should be the same.

As pointed out above, quality is subjective. Capture a 10 minute clip encode at 352x480@4000, 720x480@4000 and 720x480@8000 and let us know your results.

[nyhack56]

What if it's a standard VHS source? Right now I have a regular Panasonic Hi-Fi VCR hooked up to my capture card.

[FOO]

Just try it

[nyhack56]

I'm going to try it when I get home from work. I'll post back and let you guys know how it turns out.

Thanks very much.

[SquirrelDip]

If it's standard VHS then the resolution will be lower than SVHS. What you want to capture at is the lowest standard DVD resolution that is still greater than the resolution of the source. It would be nice to capture at exactly the source resolution but the closest match will be half D1...

[Vejita-sama]

Remember that file size is SOLELY based on bitrate and runtime. The resolution DOES NOT MATTER. Neither does the size of the source, the quaility of the source, the motion serach option, etc.

Eg. a 1150kbit/s video that's 10 secs long = 11500kbit MPEG (video only)

Notice that the resolution doesn't matter. Resolution affects video quaility, not video size. While it's true that the higher the resolution the better the quaility, it's also true that at higher resolutions you must use a higher bitrate to maintain the same bitrate per pixel ratio.

So there's a balancing act between resolution, bitrate, source runtime and quaility.

[spiderman2k1]

This is how I would do it. Get a ATI All In Wonder capture very high MPEG2 at CBR. Then authorize the the MPEg2 TMPGauthor program even let's you edit. Good if it's a movie with no commercail's. if you have Commercail use MPEG2VCR to take the commercails out. Now Authorize the MPEG2 file. NOw you might have a DVD over 4.3gig's might be around ten gig's use IC7 to make it fit on a DVD-R. Also IC8 is coming out very soon. If your DVD does not have menu's you can use DVD2DVD or DVD2DVD-R. If I want to transcode video I like CloneDVD.

[overloaded_ide]

QUALITY is SUBJECTIVE
3 hours of video on a DVD is possible ,hell, 6 hours is but it looks like crap.
3 hours will require a bitrate of ~3200 with 192 audio.Great for cartoons, kids shows,dramas but I doubt it will satisfy you for sporting events.
Calc here (learn it) : https://www.videohelp.com/calc.htm

Unless your soundcard captures 48kHz (which i doubt) that too will need resampling from 44.1 -> 48 to be in DVD spec.

Well, alot depends on source and equipment of course, but I have to disagree with the basic statement 3 hrs won't be very good. IN ripping 2 3hr dvd9 movies and putting each on only 1 dvdr, no-one that has watched them knows they are not the store bought movies! I have those put away for saftey! We are talking some action movies here, TT and all those battles scenes, perfection on my equipment! Looks nearly 3d even!

As for 48,000hz sound, no problem, I capture directly to mpeg2 with an ATI AIW RADEON 7500 and MMC 7.7. 44,100hz was a problem with ATIs MMC7.5 I had, but upgrade to 7.7 and you capture 48,000hz fine.

As for authoring, if you are cutting comercials and setting chapters Tmpgenc DVD author does that GREAT. You can even have motion menus, so maybe take a clip of your favorite TouchDown play and use it as a motion menu!
As Spiderman said, if your DVD is over size after you author it, just shrink it. I use DVDshrink 3 beta 5 and it works excelent for me. Keeping menus is not a problem.

Main thing is of course get the best capture you can! You can only capture once, but you can try many things on that one capture till you get the results you want!

[nyhack56]

OK, I captured last night at 720x480 at 8000 b/s and 352x480 at 4000 b/s.

To me they looked the same quality wise. But the 352x480 picture was shaped like a tall rectangle. Is that how it's gonna look on the DVD or will it look normal?

[housepig]

your tv will expand it to fit (at least mine does).

[SquirrelDip]

I've had that problem depending on what you're using to play the video (try playing the AVI in a software DVD player). All should be normal once passed through your DVD authoring program.

Whenever you're trying something new make sure you burn to DVD-RW's first (or to a folder) just to make sure all is well. Blank DVDs are still a little pricey...

Another note: Some authoring programs will not accept half D1. From what I've read on the forums here Adobe Encore, Vegas won't - DVD-Lab, Ulead will... (can anyone else confirm/deny or add others?)

[Rogue3]

Just out of curiosity, what happens if you author you dvd using the mp2 file instead of ace? I use maestro and have created several home movie dvds and imported the mp2 audio. When I compiled, it compiled successfully but gave the 'no ac3 audio' warning messages for each track with ac3 audio. However, it plays fine on my dvd player. Is this a problem?

Also, I fit about 81 minutes per dvd from an analog source. I encode 7000 avg, 8000 max using tmpenc plus. Anyone have experience encoding at a lower bitrate with good quality to get more per dvd?

and, just a side note: I crop my video to make it anamorphic to play on a 47 inch widescreen and it looks pretty good at my current settings. It would be nice to get my time up to 90 minutes without going down in quality.

[SquirrelDip]

As far as I know the NTSC standard calls for AC3 audio, the PAL will also accept MP2. Most stand alone NTSC DVD players will play with MP2 but if it's not the standard you may find some that won't.

I've experimented with creating some music DVD's (basically slide shows to music tracks) using MP2 and they play on both my DVD players (an older Sony and a newer JVC).

Your TV sounds better than the few I've got so you may notice more artifacts. When backing up DVD's try encoding at 24 fps (assuming you're NTSC) and use the pull-down setting. I've found you can lower the bitrate and retain good quality.

And once again - some DVD authoring programs may not handle film frame rates. DVD-Lab will, Ulead won't don't know about others (anyone???).

[Don2050]

I've made DVD's with nothing but MP2 audio and they play fine on both of my standalone NTSC DVD players... (Sony and Toshiba) But, my guess is that older players will not be so accomadating...so for compatibiliaty AC3 may prove more beneficial.

If you know your DVD players will all be newer though... you can use MP2 if you desire to.

Best thing though is to do a test and see for youself as someone in this post suggested earlier.