Pioneer ship over 5 million writers

[PhilipL]

Withdrawn

[KDH]

Amazing........first to market.....so sold the most.....

and to think that -RW is so much the dog's danglies that they added +RW........

and lost the custom of most of the OEM PC makers in the article................

Mr Andy Parsons(senior vice president of the business solutions division of Pioneer Electronics (USA) should become a politician such is his talent for creating a current success story out of very old news........

KDH

[Adder_78]

That really dosent suprise me. (-)-format is better choice for customers... 8)

[tompika]

So what.......

McDonald's sold 500 trillion burgers and its very popular too

[lordsmurf]

So what....... McDonald's sold 500 trillion burgers and its very popular too

Is it really that high now? The signs used to say it, but I haven't seen that in several years where I live.

And @ KDH: Pioneer sold 5 million. That's their claim to fame. Let them have it. There's nothing wrong with either format. Pioneer added it to keep its product competitive with the other dual formats, not because one was losing or winning. It's so strange that people are still bitter over the format wars, even though the dual-burners have ended it. Pioneer only lost its largest OEM contract because Compaq was bought out by HP, one of the +R format backers.

[Adder_78]

It's so strange that people are still bitter over the format wars, even though the dual-burners have ended it.

Yes but still there is little gap between -/+ media... (-) is cheaper -> popular...

I have dual-format writer but still I'm burning those cheap (-)-discs... I'm not sure what the prices are in U.S but in europe the (-)-format really rocks... :P

[vtecwil]

I've given up on -R media . Too much of a gamble . There are way too many companies out there making crappy -R media . I'm not saying that there is'nt any good -R discs out there . I love Ritek GO3's . But I dont want to go through the hassle of mail order . I can go right down the street and get more reliable +R discs for the same or less money ( RICOHJPN01 under the TDK , Verbatim , or Memorex labels ) .

[Adder_78]

I've given up on -R media . Too much of a gamble . There are way too many companies out there making crappy -R media . I'm not saying that there is'nt any good -R discs out there . I love Ritek GO3's . But I dont want to go through the hassle of mail order . I can go right down the street and get more reliable +R discs for the same or less money ( RICOHJPN01 under the TDK , Verbatim , or Memorex labels ) .

there is also lots of crappy (+)-format discs too... it's just difficult to find cheap and good discs (- or +) . I like Verbatim 2X DVD-R discs about 2 euros per disc when delivered from UK to Finland (to my doorstep!)... 8)

[vtecwil]

I have not run across any crappy DVD+R media yet . Not to say I have used every brand out there . Heres a list which includes my observations .

DVD+R

Optimum 2.4X Good
TDK 4X good
Memorex 4X good
Verbatim 4X good
Maxell 2.4X good
Imation 2.4X good

DVD-R

Verbatim good at 2X
Khypermedia mixed at 2X ( some batches good others bad )
Comp USA ( Leed Data ) good at 1X
Comp USA ( Optodisk ) bad at 1X , 2X
Imation mixed at 2X
Memorex bad at 1X , 2X
Ritek good at 2X

Now these are just my personal observations . It just seems that a lot of the -R media is manufactured poorly . I've seen delamination at the hub , poor dye distribution , and other defects . The bad thing is that most of the companies putting their names on these discs dont seem to care . I rarely see a poorly manufactured DVD+R .

I like the discs made by RICOHJPNR01 . I pay 1.13 to 1.20 dollars US per disc from one of many stores right down the street .

[Skynet107]

I have to agree with you vtecwil DVD+R media seems to be a lot better quality. But I think it is only because - media has been out there much longer. DVD-RW drives were put into the market in real numbers much much faster than DVD+ drives.

And I wish someone would explain to me the difference between + and - media. I doubt there is any, besides the id embeded into the media. I hope someone comes up with a way to make a dual format blank DVD that will burn in any burner.

[tompika]

I hope someone comes up with a way to make a dual format blank DVD that will burn in any burner.

[Adder_78]

Here is some Nero CD Speed results of disks that I and my visitors had tested so far:

http://www.mpegit.net/dvdr_quality.php

Not so many + format disc tests, but there will be soon... 8)

[PhilipL]

Withdrawn

[tompika]

Will they come out with a faster drive anytime soon?

[KDH]

Hi


Sounds like sour grapes to me Kdh

In case you are completely unaware, the money isn't in RW discs. The money is in selling the highest numbers of write-once media. RW discs are re-useable, so people never have the need for that many. Write-once discs are what people get through in high numbers. Ever seen someone post of buying a cake-tin of 50 or 100 RW discs??? No didn't think so.

Whatever your thoughts on DVD-RW or +RW, it doesn't matter, that isn't what people are mostly using.

Pioneer simply added +RW/+R because the competition were. I guess they rather would not have done, but you have to go with the market, what progressive manufacturing company wouldn't? Their product was at a disadvantage compared to those from Sony, NEC and now others, what were they going to do, let their market share erode or fight on even terms? You seem to think they were losing sales to +RW/+R single format writers, they were not, they were losing to dual format writers.

Have you not realised that +RW/+R single format writers are now losing market share to dual writers? If you haven't then you have your head in the same bucket of sand as Philips and co.

The writing is on the wall for single format drives, the market place is evolving to standardise DVD writing the only way it can now, support all the formats.

Buy Xmas this year the bulk of sales will be dual-format burners, I doubt you will be able to buy a single format drive easily, except for those offered by Philips and Co, and their sales will simply drop to next to nothing. People will view single format drives as a risk and being out of date.

There isn't a format war anymore, the only battle is for how long single format writers will remain in the market place.

Regards

Philip

No sour grapes here matey boy.

There WILL continue to be a market for +RW only drives as long as Dell,HP and Fujitsu Siemens continue with their OEM custom for new PC's!
These 3 manufacturers have over 50% of the US market between them.
Continuing sales of these PC's will mean that ALL PC drives will at least have +RW capability(Toshiba,Panasonic and Samsung OEM drives are rumoured to be going dual)-why will the retailers eventually bother stocking -RW media,after all shelf space is valuable.
Licensing costs mean that +RW drives will always be $10 -$15 cheaper-thats a lot of money when you're shipping hundreds of thousands of PC's amonth.

Dell and especially HP are leaders of the DVD+Alliance and I suspect can smell victory in the format war-IF they hold their nerve.If not then I'll get my head out of the bucket of sand!!

Another HUGE plus is the ability of certain 8x DVD+R drives (eg Plextor) to
use already available 4x discs at 8x speed.This has been done already and
demonstrated on here and in the DVDplusRW.ORG forums.

When will the first burn at 8x on a DVD-R be achieved?(and will it be on a
4x or a 8x DVD-R)?

The sooner you get your head of your bucket of concrete the better.Several months ago you( PhilipL) was praising the virtues of -RW now the only things in your hymn book are dual drives.

KDH

[tompika]

and to think that -RW is so much the dog's danglies that they added +RW........

In case you are completely unaware, the money isn't in RW discs. The money is in selling the highest numbers of write-once media.

PhilipL!

KDH was not talking about rewritable medias.

He meant Pioneer finally added the plus format to their A06 drive

[PhilipL]

Withdrawn

[dengar]

Im slowly converting to +R as well. They work just as good in my players and very easy to get in the stores. Just have to wait for the sales tho, but since im always in the stores anyway its no big deal to me.

[KDH]

No one is talking about format wars anymore (except maybe for you) as we all accept they are both around until something better comes along, and we all mostly have dual writers so don't care anyway.

Ah...pots and kettles, both are black.......look in the mirror!


So why did you post the original Pioneer link on Usenet with the provocative title of "The winning format DVD-RW/R"???
Guilty of talking out of date rubbish?

link
http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&frame=right&th=a4b6408d114b52c5...rce9.net#link1

Plenty of +RW only drives here
http://www.dabs.com/products/prod-search.asp?action=search&tid=464&ob=price&stab=ref
The 4 cheapest out of 43 in stock in fact

Would you be posting the fact that a new Pioneer AO7, if available NOW,could write to DVD-R at 8x on 4x discs?
Of course not -that would be "unofficial non-supported certification" You wouldn't stoop that low..................


KDH

[Northstar]

And I wish someone would explain to me the difference between + and - media. I doubt there is any, besides the id embeded into the media. I hope someone comes up with a way to make a dual format blank DVD that will burn in any burner.

Well basically, from my limited knowledge on the subject...

The - 'minus' media is a bit like a record, it already has pits/grooves on the disk.

The + 'plus' media is more like a blank canvas, theres nothing on the disk to start with, no grooves/pits.

I could be wrong but thats about the gist of it from what i know anyway, im sure someone will come along and correct me :P

[lordsmurf]

This comes from the DVD MEDIA page on lordsmurf.com, in a section about media myths:

5. This is the next-dumbest myth: "The DVD+R and DVD-R drives and discs are the same. Why not just develop firmware and media that makes them all the same?"

This would be similar to saying that a cat and a dog are the same. While they do both have four legs and a tail, as well as rub and lick to show affection, they are definitely NOT the same. The hardware and media materials are completely different.

This part of the site is still on my HD at the moment. FYI, the dumbest myth is that DVD-R is merely a CD-R drive with different firmware.

[PhilipL]

Withdrawn

[KDH]

KDH

So why did you post the original Pioneer link on Usenet with the provocative title of "The winning format DVD-RW/R"???
Guilty of talking out of date rubbish?

Playing devils advocate! Besides the statement is true, in the context of numbers of drives sold by a single manufacturer at that point in time the Winning Format is DVD-RW/DVD-R.

Devils advocate--BS !!!!Say one thing do another!You could be a politician too!

You CANNOT get away with telling me to get over it ,when YOU have an equal and opposite tendency to push -RW/R while at the same time pretending that you haven't.

Your well informed, intelligent posts of the past will be ignored by the masses if you continue to make a fool of yourself like this!

End of slanging match at my end thanks!

KDH

[PhilipL]

Withdrawn

[overloaded_ide]

There is no longer any format WAR, it is now just a matter of what disks will your player play and burner burn and what are the least expensive decent ones this week!

The format war is gone, replaced by a brand war! What brand of disk in either format is the best and cheapest today!

Since dual burners will burn either - or + r or RW disks, that is no-longer any issue. And since it seems almost equal that either format plays in players being made today, then we must now choose only what disk to buy!

Since not all brands of either format seem to work in all players and all burners equally as well, it has now come to a brand of disk war! Who makes the best and most reliable disk for the lowest price?

I don't care what format I use as long as it burns in my burner and plays in the majority of players! I want the best disk for the least money! Is that TDK, Lead data, Maxell??? Give me a perfect disk for $1 every time and that is the brand I will buy, untill I can get a perfect disk every time for 75 cents, then I buy that!

Price and quality of the disk is all I care about, not format! Both formats seem to work nearly equally well, and a dual format drive cost what, like $10 more than a single format! Who cares! Why by a single fomat?
That is the ONLY reason either and both types of single format drives are dying out! It is cheaper and more PROFITABLE to go dual format than to sell a single format drive for $75! Thats what I would pay for one today!
I can get a burner that does two jobs(formats) for $150! So for a burner that does half the jobs I will only pay half the price! Ya, I know I ain't gonna get a 4x burner for $75, but that is about all I would pay. So I will buy my next burner (soon) as a dual format 4x for about $150 or less.

I can save more than $10 (differnece in price of signle format or dual) by buying -r disks on sale this week, and next week buying +r disks on sale!
That ability to swap formats will save me money over time! Also if I need to make a disk for an old player that only plays one format I can.

Currantly I have a -R drive and not having any problems with -r disks not working in players! Only reason I even care about a new drive is for speed! My drive is a 2x toshiba Sd-r5002. I want a 4x drive, prefferably one that writes great to cheap 4x and 1x media!
Durring the day when I want disks fast I will use more expensive 4x ones, at night when I am going to bed I will use cheap 1x disks. All I care about is they burn correctly and work afterwards! And LAST 100yrs like they claim

Things change with the times! When I bought my -r I was wondering why anyone really wanted dual format after looking at them myself for awhile!
Then they were twice the price of a single format drive, so then I figured it would be better to just buy one drive of each type for about the same price if I ever wanted the other type! But now it is the oposite, why would anyone want a single format drive when it costs nearly as much as the dual! Course if you find a new one on close out cheap, go for it!

What do you think most consumers want? DISKS THAT WORK and are cheap!

NO-ONE cares about + or - ! No one actually cared about VHS or Beta, which is why High quality Beta lost, and cheap VHS won!

The only way either format is gonna go under or lose any war is if some manufactorer decides to make perfect High quality disks in that format and sell them for 50cents each, or less! If the other format still costs $1 or $1.50 for a decent disk then that format will die!

And it ain't gonna happen!

You must remember that the problem in the VCR wars does not exist in the DVD wars! Size forced a winner in VCR wars! Not a problem in DVDs!
There was no way to make a VCR that could play both Beta and VHS even if someone wanted to! Tapes were not the same size!
So, since the market went to the cheaper product with the majority, and people wanted to swap tapes or take them to other peoples houses for parties, well they had to have all the same type players. So many that would have preffered BETA quality were FORCED to by VHS for compatibility with others!
BUT we see here, DVDs are all the same size, so they fit ANY player! And we see players and burners can be made to play ALL dvds! So compatibility is not a problem widespread like BETA VHS.

So with dual format players, and dual format burners, the only problem is now quality of disks and price!

[Faustus]

I only take comfort that sometime before I die this argument should die. It doesn't matter. Most the serious manufactuers have gone dual format. Even my fav brand (Pioneer) has. Let it die. It just doesn't matter anymore. Heck it never did matter to begin with.

[Gil T Pleasure]

Most the serious manufactuers have gone dual format.

What about Apple, have they gone dual format as well? Oh never mind, I just realized you said serious manufacturer... :P

[overloaded_ide]

What about Apple, have they gone dual format as well? Oh never mind, I just realized you said serious manufacturer

Apple and PCs are not compatable anyway so what does APPLE count for?
In a small sence that is like saying VHS has ot converted to dual format DVD either

Apples are a seperate tree and grow there own way.

[PhilipL]

Withdrawn

[KDH]

Time WILL tell

-and then I'll hold my hands up and say OK.....................


In the meantime

http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/7975


KDH