pioneer 105..media

[darkangel]

i'm going to get a pioneer 105, what brand of media do u use, i'm worried from what i read that a lot of the media doesn't write at full speed and has a high failure rate, I'm in the uk so the choice of media is more limited what should i use?

[macleod]

I have the 105. I use princo and unbranded supermedia with the 1.3 firmware hack and I am burning 2x and they work on all of the dvd players I use (PS2, apex, toshiba, etc.). Since upgrading, no coasters, no problems at all.

[AarontheRipper]

Well, I'm not sure where, but I'm sure that you can find it in the UK. Ritek G03's. They're 1x disks that burn at 2x with the firmware hack. I have burned about 100 of these in my 105 without a single coaster.

[clanger]

I've just bought one myself, got it from SVP. Bit miffed really as they've just dropped the price from £149 to £119 inc vat. arse !
I'm using NanYa discs (got them from SVP as well, they were free with a panny drive but I had two which didn't work, so swapped for the Pioneer).
These work great, they only burn at 1x, but I've had no failures so far, amazing considering my DVD player is a flaky old REC 3000 (which I can't find any info on !).
I'm burning using Nero, using the DVD Video option (not the data option which a lot of people seem to favour).

[dade305]

Ritek G03 or Ritek G04 are highly recommended

[GeorgeDawes]

Dark Angel.I use 4x Superior discs from Bowlers Fair.They are a Princo dye and i have had no problems with them I have also bought another 105 from Big Pockets for £95

[txpharoah]

These are my suggestions for media on the PIONEER 105 drives. I've used most media that exist out there, and these are the only ones I'll use for primary home use.

For the ULTIMATE in quality, you'd want to stick with APPLE 4x DVD-R, as those are made by Mitsubishi Chemicals and/or Pioneer Media (PVC) at the moment. I use those when data or video life REALLY matters. For all else, I use Riteks or Optodiscs. Here.

Pioneer Inkjet 4x are ultimate quality as well, but are harder to find, and more expensive. Most Pioneer come in the form of inkjet-version these days. (Yes, the Pioneer are technically less expensive than Apple, but you are able to buy Apple in smaller quantities, which may suit some people better. The Pioneer only come in bulk, which gets expensive real quick when discs are $3+ each.) Here.

Ritek is a good disc when they take the time to properly assemble the disc for consumer use (by adding the protective layers to them). My most recent batch of Orange-Branded 4x Riteks has pleased me very much, and I'll be placing another order soon. Here.

Optodiscs 4x (gold-coated variations) also give me excellent results. Pay no attention to that "1x/4x-only" mess. They burn at 2x in my 103 drive. I assume 2x is not an option for the 4x drive (why do that anyway?). Here.

When you want a decent disc, that is potentially prone to few errors, maybe none at all, and cheap is the ultimate goal, I'd stick with 4x white-topped Princo discs. I use those when the end product is under 4GB in size (the discs MAY have 4.0GB-4.3GB write errors, though the newest 4x discs have not had any that I could see, and I've burned about 200 of them in the past few weeks). I also use them for other people that get freebies or samples. Here.

Also... NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER hack the firmware of the drive. You're only asking for trouble by doing so. No matter how TEMPTING it looks or how many supposed success stories you hear, realize that those success stories are like the ones you hear on the weight-loss commercials: not typical results. FYI: Unless the firmware comes DIRECTLY from a Pioneer webpage, it is NOT official. Lots of blank media companies have hacked firmwares on their sites these days.

Sorry, not sure if any of these are exported to the UK. Maybe you can find these same discs elsewhere.

And even if you only have a 2x drive, realize that these would still be a wise buy, as 4x media are much better than even the best 2x media. There is nothing wrong with buying a better disc and then burning at a lower speed because that is the best your burner can do. You are buying a better product, you are not throwing away money on higher speeds that you cannot get. Don't look at it as a waste, but rather as an upgrade in quality.

Finally, I want to reiterate this point again: silver-topped and gold-topped media were not made for consumers. They were made for business. You as a home consumer should avoid them. These discs do not have any kind of protective coatings on them, given by way of inkjet-printable surfaces or by way of screenprinting/thermal. These are made in bulk for companies, who after burning, end the process by printing on the final product. This is something you probably cannot do, so you therefore are unable to fully finish the DVD creation process like the companies. This is why they are only sold in bulk and only through distributors and vendors (which now have online outlets where many of us buy from). Will the blank media stores sell to you? Absolutely. They sell to anybody. Should you buy them, as a home consumer? No, but it's up to you. How important is the life of your disc to you? Again, you are probably unable to screenprint as needed, and inkjets disc labels are not allowable on DVD media. If you don't agree with this or believe it, that's fine. I'm just passing on what I know, having worked in a video-related field for so long.

And again, as with any technology, this information may change at any time.

[mkelley]

[b]inkjets disc labels are not allowable on DVD media. If you don't agree with this or believe it, that's fine. I'm just passing on what I know, having worked in a video-related field for so long.

I've been working in video for over 20 years, but I can't say that means anything when it comes to DVDs, but for what it's worth I have NO idea where your statement about injet disc labels are not allowable comes from.

Yes, I know all about people who have had horror stories with labels -- just as I know of people like myself who have been using DVD labels for years without problems. But it's quite one thing to say "some people have problems with DVD labels" or *even* "most people have problems with DVD labels" but to categorically say they're not allowed -- well, if you're right, could you point me to the DVD spec that says this? Because I would love to see it.

I'm truly not trying to be argumentative here -- if there is some kind of official declaration that labels are not allowed I'd really like to become informed. I don't know that it would stop me from using them myself, since I've had such great success, but it would probably keep me from recommending them to others.

[kenmo]

These are my suggestions for media on the PIONEER 105 drives. I've used most media that exist out there, and these are the only ones I'll use for primary home use.

For the ULTIMATE in quality, you'd want to stick with APPLE 4x DVD-R, as those are made by Mitsubishi Chemicals and/or Pioneer Media (PVC) at the moment. I use those when data or video life REALLY matters. For all else, I use Riteks or Optodiscs. Here.

Pioneer Inkjet 4x are ultimate quality as well, but are harder to find, and more expensive. Most Pioneer come in the form of inkjet-version these days. (Yes, the Pioneer are technically less expensive than Apple, but you are able to buy Apple in smaller quantities, which may suit some people better. The Pioneer only come in bulk, which gets expensive real quick when discs are $3+ each.) Here.

Ritek is a good disc when they take the time to properly assemble the disc for consumer use (by adding the protective layers to them). My most recent batch of Orange-Branded 4x Riteks has pleased me very much, and I'll be placing another order soon. Here.

Optodiscs 4x (gold-coated variations) also give me excellent results. Pay no attention to that "1x/4x-only" mess. They burn at 2x in my 103 drive. I assume 2x is not an option for the 4x drive (why do that anyway?). Here.

When you want a decent disc, that is potentially prone to few errors, maybe none at all, and cheap is the ultimate goal, I'd stick with 4x white-topped Princo discs. I use those when the end product is under 4GB in size (the discs MAY have 4.0GB-4.3GB write errors, though the newest 4x discs have not had any that I could see, and I've burned about 200 of them in the past few weeks). I also use them for other people that get freebies or samples. Here.

Also... NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER hack the firmware of the drive. You're only asking for trouble by doing so. No matter how TEMPTING it looks or how many supposed success stories you hear, realize that those success stories are like the ones you hear on the weight-loss commercials: not typical results. FYI: Unless the firmware comes DIRECTLY from a Pioneer webpage, it is NOT official. Lots of blank media companies have hacked firmwares on their sites these days.

Sorry, not sure if any of these are exported to the UK. Maybe you can find these same discs elsewhere.

And even if you only have a 2x drive, realize that these would still be a wise buy, as 4x media are much better than even the best 2x media. There is nothing wrong with buying a better disc and then burning at a lower speed because that is the best your burner can do. You are buying a better product, you are not throwing away money on higher speeds that you cannot get. Don't look at it as a waste, but rather as an upgrade in quality.

Finally, I want to reiterate this point again: silver-topped and gold-topped media were not made for consumers. They were made for business. You as a home consumer should avoid them. These discs do not have any kind of protective coatings on them, given by way of inkjet-printable surfaces or by way of screenprinting/thermal. These are made in bulk for companies, who after burning, end the process by printing on the final product. This is something you probably cannot do, so you therefore are unable to fully finish the DVD creation process like the companies. This is why they are only sold in bulk and only through distributors and vendors (which now have online outlets where many of us buy from). Will the blank media stores sell to you? Absolutely. They sell to anybody. Should you buy them, as a home consumer? No, but it's up to you. How important is the life of your disc to you? Again, you are probably unable to screenprint as needed, and inkjets disc labels are not allowable on DVD media. If you don't agree with this or believe it, that's fine. I'm just passing on what I know, having worked in a video-related field for so long.

And again, as with any technology, this information may change at any time.

Just currious, why do advise against using the silver or gold topped discs ? If they are good enough for business use would they not be good enough for home use ?

Again I appreciate your opinion...thanks....

Kenmo

[mkelley]

He's saying it's because businesses print on top of them, thus protecting the surface in a way home users cannot (particularly because he says you can't use inkjet labels on DVDs, a contention I want to see proof of).

I agree with needing protection on top -- a scratch there can seriously damage a disk in a way that bottom scratches won't.

[tphaggerty]

I understand that a scratch on top of a CDR would cause a problem. However, DVD-Rs can be bought in 2 sided varieties which, by definition, CANNOT have a coating on the top. How does this jibe with the "top must be coated" discussion?

As per other threads here, it seems that DVDs are supposed to have a thicker layer on top (unlike CD-Rs) and thus scratches (on top) should not cause problems since you are NOT scratching the actual write layer.

Am I missing something here? I really want to know so I can make the correct purchasing decisions in the future.

Right now I have both uncoated Ritek G03s and coated BeAlls. By the way, the ONLY way I can get my Pioneer A05 (even with 100% up to date firmware) to write on the BeAlls is with the hacked firmware - and it seems to work just fine.

[mkelley]

Ahhhh.... I find myself trying to defend someone I disagree with <g>.

Okay, first of all, do *not* buy the DVDRs that are dual sided. There is no software that can successfully burn a dual sided disk, so all you are buying is two disks for the price of three, and you'll have to turn it over to burn each side (AND you'll have to turn it over to play each side, since unlike a DVD9 it is not dual layered).

And, yes, DVDs are *supposed* to have a thicker layer -- that's what Mr tx is talking about, that the gold and silver disks have a much thinner layer since they will eventually be covered by a silk-screened process which adds to that thickness. At least as I read his arguements -- I'm sure he'll jump in here and tell me where I'm going wrong.

Look -- I buy the cheapest quality disks I can find (right now my favorites are BeAlls) and then I put a paper inkjet label on top. This seems to me to be the best: not only is it great protection (for the top) but it's easy to find the DVD I want (I have such bad printing/handwriting that writing on a DVD just isn't even an option :>) In two years of using quality (not cheap) labels I've yet to have a problem, even on DVDs I play quite often (sometimes 8 or ten times) but I also understand some people have less luck with labels. I don't agree there is anything in any DVD standard preventing labels, but I could be wrong there (and want to be educated). In the meantime, that would be my advice.

Now I'll leave this thread -- I don't even own a Pioneer burner (I came here from a link mr. tx postsed in another thread).

[txpharoah]

No, I'm only talking about single-sided discs. I ignore the dual-sided discs, as they are not very good quality from what I've found, nor are they very popular. Using them is sometimes a craps-shoot.

As far as why I advise against silver-topped or gold-topped media for the general non-business consumer, please re-read my above post. It is there.

As far as labels go, a DVD has a much narrower space where data is written. DVD labels are too heavy, and are nowhere near the same as screenprinting on a disc. The media screenprint/thermal jobs are not heavy at all, not like paper at least. Any slight mass/weight offset will cause the disc to be unburnable (which can result from cheap media naturally having bad balance or from being labeled prior to burning) or unreadable (often the case from labeling them after burning). Disc balance is the reason some media can burn faster than others, with the stability being able to maintain an accurate burn at that many RPMs (1x, 2x, 4x). A label makes the DVD thicker than disc specs, and will almost always knock it off balance. Is it possible to labels DVDs? Yes, but not with any accuracy. It must be place on the disc with perfect accuracy, up to the millimeter, be ultrathin with a non-abrasive glue that will not melt or dissolve itself or the disc materials. Unfortunately, these kinds of labels do not exist, at least not from my findings.

On the normal labels you find, the glue eats away at the disc materials. And the glue will not last long, sometimes peeling off in a matter of days. The glue cannot hold up from the heat generated by the DVD players, in most cases. Every now and then, I run across a total non-believer that wants me to think labeling is perfectly fine. It is not. At some point in time, a DVD-labeling person will become a witness to the damage of a label.

Of all the homemade DVDs I've seen in my day, only 3 had a good label job. The other 100+ were rendered useless either immediately or in a matter of weeks or months. I do freelnace work on the side, and I've been brought ruined discs for repair. Most times, the user is screwed, as most damage done by labels is irreversible.

A CD was different. Larger grooves for data. Higher tolerance for disc wobble. Allowances in the variable thickness of CD media. A DVD is not a CD, and in the aspect of labeling, it is night and day.

Again, a DVD and a CD are round. Beyond that, they share very little.

Labeling a DVD is a big no-no.

[mkelley]

Of all the homemade DVDs I've seen in my day, only 3 had a good label job. The other 100+ were rendered useless either immediately or in a matter of weeks or months..

Okay, so apart from the anecdotal evidence, there is no spec that says DVDs cannot be labeled. That's all I wanted to know.

And I guess by inference you're also saying that my labeled DVDs (*all* my labeled DVDs) that have lasted years are thus okay, since improper labeling would fall apart in a matter of months. So I'll rest easy that I'm doing it right.

[txpharoah]

Okay, so apart from the anecdotal evidence, there is no spec that says DVDs cannot be labeled. That's all I wanted to know.

No, not at all. Go read up the information on labeling DVDs at any media manufacturer's website. Ask any digital media professional. Call a blank media distributor.

Give THE TAPE COMPANY a call.
Give MERITLINE a call.
Call a local video transfer studio.

In all cases, the answer should remain: labeling a DVD is bad, as the technology for labeling a CD does not hold true for DVD.

Again, can you do it? Sure. But not with any kind of accuracy. And it is not suggested or approved of (for sound technical reasons) by media makers. You're probably just lucky. As long as your method works, and you feel comfortable keep it up. But I still doubt the results lasting in a few years.

How about posting your media brands and exact disc model? And the brand and exact model of the labels? And where you bought them? And by what exact method do you go about pasting the labels on the discs? If your method works so well, then by all means... share.

I still won't do it. I know what can happen.

But for those that refuse to listen to myself and others on this aspect, maybe you can help them pick up some pointers. Then they can try it out for themselves.

[kenmo]

No, I'm only talking about single-sided discs. I ignore the dual-sided discs, as they are not very good quality from what I've found, nor are they very popular. Using them is sometimes a craps-shoot.

As far as why I advise against silver-topped or gold-topped media for the general non-business consumer, please re-read my above post. It is there.

tx,

I always read your posts as I truly value your opinion but I still do not understand your point of gold/silver topped DVD media and YES I did re-read your post....can you please explain your concern ?

[anosis]

Kenmo,

You got basically 4 layers of material. First, starting with the thickest on the read/write side is the plastic polymere itself. Then there is the organic dye (mostly pruple in color), thirdly the reflective layer (gold or silver) and then again a very thin layer of plastic polymere. The last layer obviously protects the gold or the silver coating from scratches and also oxidation.

As you probably know DVD's and CD's alike are somewhat resistant against scratches from the read/write side but cannot take much abuse from the labeling side, especially if the printing is alltogether missing. Since it is unlikely that you have a printing machine at home, you won't be able to give that gold/silver bare disc the protection it needs for daily use.

Labeling disk carries the risk that the glue reacts with the very thin polymere and eats it away. CD's got thicker protective layers. I would also think that labeling DVD is much harder than CD's, though I do not have any experience in it and I cannot really comment on it.

[txpharoah]

but I still do not understand your point of gold/silver topped DVD media and YES I did re-read your post....can you please explain your concern ?

"anosis" pretty much said it again with a few more details. He put it in pretty easy terms, not sure I could have said it any better. Look up one post.

However this is incorrect: "CD's got thicker protective layers." A DVD has a thicker layer, but not by much. If you are brave, and have both a CD and a DVD that are not important, bend them. You'll notice the CD is MUCH easier to bend. Is it thick enough to allow the use of uncoated DVDs? More than CD maybe, but still not as good as a screenprinted or otherwise coated disc. Nor is it recommended or even designed to be used in such a fashion. Can you do it? Sure. I can drink gasoline and eat lit matches. But what you can do and what you should do are not always the same thing.

[gmatov]

I really hate to step in on this one, but since the Ritek brouhaha, I've studied a bit on CD-DVDs. The link below is close to the one Adam, I think, posted there. Yopu should take a look at it. Much clearer how a DVD is made.
All my CDs-DVDs and even a Memorex DVD-R measure, with a micrometer, .046 to.049 in thickness, the thinner ones being (1) a dual sided movie DVD, (2) unlabeled, unprinted, unsilkscreened, recordables. The thicker ones are printed or silkscreened, one of which is painted so heavily that I cannot get a glimmer of light from my Streamlight Stinger rechargeable flashlight through it. The others are more or less translucent, the light is visible as a patch of light, or, on some, almost transparent, with the exception of the Memorex DVD-R, which shows not a glimmer, either, and it has a silver matte finish, light purple recording side.
I cannot, for the life of me, understand how the top surface figures so heavily into your protective arguments. The link below points to a "schematic" design of the 4 main types of DVD media. All 4 have 24 thousandths of an inch of polycarbonate on the bottom, and 24 thousandths of an inch of polycarbonate on the top. You would have to gouge through .024 0f the top surface to damage the reflective-recording medium. This is not a CD, with a laquer layer only. I was proven wrong, there. I accept that. But, a circumferential scratch, maybe an eighth of an inch long, could, conceivably, destroy enough data to make it a coaster.
Tex,
Without setting up a tensiometer or something, to get a precise number, I grasped every brand of disk I have, CD-Rs, DVD-R, pre-recorded music, commercial DVDs, distribution CDs, by the edges in my left hand, pressed on the hole with my right index finger, and, I'll tell you, man, I do not think DVDs are any stiffer than CDs. They are both .048 thick polycarbonate, one has the aluminum or dye or whatever on the top edge, one has it centered, but still the same amount of plastic, and I think they've pretty well standardized the formula so that they all are very nearly the same tensile strength. After all, it's a commodity plastic, plastics factories get economy of scale, others get out of that formulation, buy from the biggy, everyone uses the same stuff. I think some of the biggest are in your neck of the woods, aren't they, with all the natural gas and petroleum feedstock?
The site below also mentions that DVD-CD players have dual LASERS ( I misspellet that in the Ritek thing, and don't think anyone knew what I was getting at ), to allow them to read both DVD and CD, as DVD focal length is .024 (or thereabouts) and CD is .045 (or thereabouts ).
As to labels, I think the hole in the disk is precise to a couple thou, but would not guarantee the hole in different brands of labels, nor the mandrel provided with a stomper. You would be well within a millimeter, after all, that's damn near 40 thousandths, and a good eye can see one or two or at the very least 3 thousandths. Look at the edge of a sheet of printer paper. It doesn't disappear when perpendicular to your line of sight.
Again, the site below does make mention of labels, and does not say that's a no-no.
CDs go like 10000 rpm, in the fastest burners. How fast does a DVD-R go? I assume the pregroove is longer, but, the numbers I hear here are like half an hour to burn a DVD, as opposed to 3 and 1/2 minutes to burn a CD. Granted, 6 times the data, but 8 or 9 times the burn time, and leadin-leadout take 25-30 % of the CD burn time.
Do you recall, I said that the CD-R burners reached temps of 7 or 800 degrees or more, the site below says it can reach into the thousands, on an instantaneous basis, which must be dissipated, and there's another hotspot just micrometers away, and so on till the end. My CD-Rs come out decidedly warm to the touch, hell you might have to pull ypur DVD-Rs out with tongs and let them cool. (There's supposed to be a smiley here, but it's down at the url. I don't know if it's going to stay there, so consider that last remark to be a joke.)
Gotta see what I've missed; I type so damn slow.

http://www.usbyte.com/common/dvd_3.htm

[LanEvo7]

Riteks seem to be the most consistant brand of discs. They burn all the way to the edge without any skipping or errors. They should be able to find in the UK.

It really doesn't matter if its coated or uncoated unless you intend to pay frisbee with it. There are users on this board that have burned hundreds of uncoated riteks and never had an issues due to it being uncoated. I'd suggest you stay away from anything Princo, just read the DVD Media section for all the horror stories that people have had with it. I received two in a sample pack, one had errors, the just stopped in the middle of burning.

You can hack your drive if you want to make your Riteks burn at 2x. There are many people on this board with an A05(me included) that have hacked their drive and had no problems. However, it is still a hacked firmware, so use at your own risk.

[Cinemagic]

I have used Optodisc Gold for the past 50-75 DVDs. I have no problem burning, but can only seem to achieve reliable burns to the end at DVDShrink2.x compression of 6 or less (widescreen editions). Compression levels greater than that will block, pixelate and freeze at the end of the movie.

As for labels, I personally aviod them on both CDs and DVDs. My experience with them on CDs is that they are unreliable and begin to peel off in a significant percentage of applications. I do believe that the wobble that is introduced by the application of a label on a DVD is significant. It is true that the spin speed is much less with a DVD, but as pointed out, the amount of data crammed on the the same size platter is a LOT more. Tracking margin of error must be much smaller with a DVD. As for me, no matter what device I use and how hard I try, the labels I've placed on a CD have been close, but never perfect. I've just ordered the inkjet writable DVDs and CDs and will be getting an Epson 900 (has the CD/DVD printing adapter and is under $200).

[jolo]

Just a warning about txpharoah,

I have seen his act on several forums whe he posts long nonsensical posts. The string then usually becomes one where he gets a lot of attention and people post things to refute what he has said. It is best to ignore him and keep attention on the other more sincere posters.

[edplayer]

Okay, so apart from the anecdotal evidence, there is no spec that says DVDs cannot be labeled. That's all I wanted to know.

No, not at all. Go read up the information on labeling DVDs at any media manufacturer's website. Ask any digital media professional. Call a blank media distributor.

Give THE TAPE COMPANY a call.
Give MERITLINE a call.
Call a local video transfer studio.

In all cases, the answer should remain: labeling a DVD is bad, as the technology for labeling a CD does not hold true for DVD.

there is another thread here titled: No Wobble Frosty DVD Labels in America! where Meritline posts saying...

"Meritline labels and Neato labels are tested and certified by companies like Mitsui.
http://www.mitsuicdr.com/about/partners.html "

???

[txpharoah]

Just a warning about txpharoah, I have seen his act on several forums whe he posts long nonsensical posts.

This is the only forum where I'm a member. It is one of the few good video forums online. Some other shnook may be using my name elsewhere. Care to share a few links? I know I'm curious.

there is another thread here titled: No Wobble Frosty DVD Labels in America! where Meritline posts saying... "Meritline labels and Neato labels are tested and certified by companies like Mitsui.
http://www.mitsuicdr.com/about/partners.html "???

Yes, but look further. You'll see no mention of DVD certification, only CD certification. I tried a pack of those. They rendered the discs unplaybale on a Sony machine, an Apex, a Toshiba, and even my Pioneer 105. Did I screw up? Absolutely not. They were placed on with perfect accuracy. I lost 3 DVD-RW and 3 DVD-R discs because of those labels. The remaining ones were given away.

In a few of my earliest posts, I even suggested these labels (or at least linked to americal.com) but since that time, I know longer suggest things unless I've tested them out myself, no matter how tempting or foolproof the product may seem. Those labels did NOT live up to their promise, and the americal.com support line gave some long dribble about "no guarantees" on labeling DVD discs, something I knew already, even though it counteracted their statements on the site.

[troyvcd1]

TX. How are those new ritec with the printed logo working out for you. I read that you ordered 100 of those. I want to order some of these but I need a beta test.