Blu-ray backup to DVD9???

[blusky1]

I am a total newbie to blu-Ray but I am trying to learn.

I read the Guide to Blu-Ray backups by MilOtis(Thanks MilOtis for a great guide) and have a few questions if I may.

After reading some posts, peeps said that it was not possible to fit the HD video and HD audio on a DVD5 so you would have to sacrifice the HD audio. To shrink the file down the guide uses BD rebuilder.

I have a nice surround sound system and would like to keep the HD audio. My question is would it be possible to use BDrebuilder and shrink down the backup to a DVD9(Dual Layer DVD=8.5 GB) and then keep the HD audio with no sacrifice to the HD video.

I am looking for an inexpesive way to backup my Blu-Ray dvd's withour having to purchase an expensive Blu-Ray disc (25GB or 50 GB).

Any recomendations on best media to use would be very helpful.


Thanks in advance.

[Kerry56]

If you keep the HD audio it will take more space. Using more space for the audio reduces the amount available for the video, so you will inevitably lose a bit of quality in the video encoding doing this. Though there is no telling if you would be able to notice the difference with your particular playback equipment.

If you want to burn to DL dvds, you should check through this thread at doom9 regarding players that are known to accept blu ray structure on dvds: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=144674

The only DL dvd media that is reliable enough for me to recommend is sold under the Verbatim brand in the US. Use +R DL Verbatim.

Verbatim DL disks are sometimes as low as ninety cents apiece if you find a good sale, but are usually closer to $1.40 apiece. Blank BD-R disks are now being sold in the $2.00 range, and have been dropping quickly over the last few months, so they are not that much more expensive, depending on brand. BD burners are still very expensive compared to dvd burners though.

[blusky1]

If you keep the HD audio it will take more space. Using more space for the audio reduces the amount available for the video, so you will inevitably lose a bit of quality in the video encoding doing this. Though there is no telling if you would be able to notice the difference with your particular playback equipment. I believe BD Rebuilder is set to produce AVCHD compliant video by default in the BD-5 or BD-9 settings these days though, and AVCHD doesn't have HD audio...only LPCM and AC3.

If you want to burn to DL dvds, you should check through this thread at doom9 regarding players that are known to accept blu ray structure on dvds: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=144674

The only DL dvd media that is reliable enough for me to recommend is sold under the Verbatim brand in the US. Use +R DL Verbatim.

Verbatim DL disks are sometimes as low as ninety cents apiece if you find a good sale, but are usually closer to $1.40 apiece. Blank BD-R disks are now being sold in the $2.00 range, and have been dropping quickly over the last few months, so they are not that much more expensive, depending on brand. BD burners are still very expensive compared to dvd burners though.

Thanks Kerry for the helpful info. I just purchased a Pioneer BDR-205 burner. For now all of my backups will be played on a Playstation 3. From what I have read if I use BDrebuilder it will be able to play on a PS3.

I would assume the best way to do backups of blu-ray disks is to do a one to one copy using either BD-r(25GBor 50GB disks. Fromwhat I have read if the movie is over two hours you will need to purchase the BR-R 50 GB disk. I have not found good quality BD-r's for a good price yet. I am looking for about maybe around maybe 4.00 a disk.

[jman98]

We don't have enough data to know if anybody is actually making quality BD discs right now. The guys who are rock bottom for quality for DVDs are big players in the BD field (Ritek, etc.). Good old reliable Taiyo Yuden appears to not be making any BD discs, at least not for sale in the USA. Verbatim is the ONLY maker I would trust. I plan to get into making my own BD discs next year and I am just going to buy Verbatim and pay whatever it costs. Saving money is not worthwhile when bad media fails on you, be it during the burn or later.

[Kerry56]

I had to amend part of my post...don't think I was right about BD Rebuilder producing AVCHD by default at BD5 or BD9 compression levels. If you do use the AVCHD compliant settings, then you won't have HD audio.

As for the quality of the BD disks, I've been following the discussions on that over at cdfreaks. There seem to be very few really poor quality BD blank disks out at the moment. I think I'd avoid the Umedisc blank bd disks that are just coming out. The LG BD-RE disks that come with their burners have a poor reputation, but mine has been fine.

Verbatim on the other hand are making a different type of Blu ray disk for some of their output, called LTH, which use organic dyes instead of the inorganic found in virtually everything else. Not all BD burners can use the LTH disks.

[blusky1]

Appreciate all the help.

Seems a little more involved than I thought. I followed the Milotis guide at it did say that I would be able to play it on a PS3.

At this point I feel the safest and cost effective way is to start with the Blu-Ray original disk to BD-5( DVD-R) . The recommendation is the Taiyo Yuden DVD-R although I found some recommendations for the DVD+R also. I will have to forgo the 5.1 HD audio for now. I think its best till I learn the process better.
I will purchase one BR-RE both the 25GB and 50GB to test with to keep the coaster count down. I will purchase some Verbatim DL+R(DVD9) to burn too.
I think this covers all chioces till I can see which way is best to maintain video quality with the 5.1 HD audio.

Again, thanks to all for sharing your knowledge.

[fritzi93]

It's sensible to do some BD5s to gain experience. However, if you have a Blu-Ray burner anyway and evidently the HD audio is important to you...why not do BD 25?

For me, the thing is the cost of the burner, when that goes down enough, I suppose I'll get one. Right now a BD-ROM is okay. As already mentioned, the cost of *reliable* DVD+R-DL media (Verbatim) is not all that much less than BD 25.

[ricoman]

I've made several movie only backups to DL disc (Verb only please) using BDRebuilder and they have come out great and sound terrific too. Star Trek is indistinguishable from the original to me. The movie only format gives you more room for the audio track. However you have to use BD25 for HD Audio. I would try the DL disc first, you may find like me that you are more that happy with the sound. I have a Pioneer BD-205 (great drive) and a very nice HT sound system and I am extremely happy with the DL quality of both picture and sound on the DL disc. As for BD disc, I would only go with made in Japan discs by Sony, Verb, TDK etc., MUST be MIJ. Do a search in CDfreaks, there is a link to a Japanese BD dis supplier that sometimes gives discounts if you mention CDfreaks (now called MyCE).

[blusky1]

Thanks fritzi93 and ricoman for your advice.

fritzi93, The reason I was a little reluctant to use the BD25 is that the info I read in the MilOtis guide suggested that most Blu-Ray movies are exeeding the 25 GB size therefore needing to use a BD50 disk which are much more expensive. If the quality of the video is good and I can preserve the HD audio I would have no problem doing exactly as you say , using the BD25 disk.

ricoman,
when you say you have to use a BD25 for HD audio do you mean because of the size of the Hd audio file or it just does not work on DL- dvd disks?? Buy the way, after doing some research on Blu-Ray burners I purchased the Pioneer BDR-205, just has not arrived yet.
Thanks for the advice on the MIJ.

[mrswla]

when you say you have to use a BD25 for HD audio do you mean because of the size of the Hd audio file or it just does not work on DL- dvd disks??

You have to use BD-25 discs if you want to keep HD audio. It's just the way bdrb works. See picture.

[blusky1]

Thanks mrswla. A picture is worth a thousand words. Now I understand. I also noticed you put the custom target size at 24100. I would guess that you cannot use all the 25GB on the BD25 disc.

[mrswla]

Actually a BD-25 disc can hold up to 23.2GB. I use custom size to get as close to 23.2GB as possible. Sometimes that means multiple encodes but I like to provide the movie with the most space. Sometimes "Target Size BD-25" compresses more than is neccessary. I also use "High Speed Option (BD-25)". That cuts the encode times down tremendously. My average encode time is between 2-3 hrs.

[mrswla]

Any recomendations on best media to use would be very helpful.

I use these. I have burnt over a hundred without problems so far. But as everyone else is saying, we really don't know what discs are go or bad at this early stage. I have used their dvd media also without problems.

[ricoman]

mrswla:
I've been reluctant to use the high speed encode figuring that it had to affect the picture quality. How do they look to you? Can you see the difference?

[Kerry56]

Shouldn't you be able to keep the HD audio if you use the Custom Target Size? Lets say you want a BD-9 size output, but you want to keep the HD sound, and the HD sound is not particularly huge in this instance...for example the latest Harry Potter film has True HD Dolby Digital sound at 703mb.

That leaves approximately 7.2 or 7.1gb (playing it safe) space for the video, doing a movie only backup. Which is considerably more than the total space you have available when doing a DVD-5 backup.

Keep a check mark in the box for retaining HD audio of course.

Is there a flaw in this scenario that I'm not seeing?

[mrswla]

I'm using a PS3 connected to a LG 42LG70 (120hz refresh rate) via HDMI and really tell a difference. If there is a difference, it's not worth the extra 10 hrs it takes to encode. Here is the txt file from Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince done with both High Speed Option (BD-25) and Highest (Very Slow).
-----------------------
[15:49:02] BD Rebuilder v0.31.05 (beta)
- Source: HARRY_POTTER_6
- Input BD size: 24.41 GB
- Approximate total content: [02:33:30.910]
- Target BD size: 24.02 GB
- Windows Version: 6.1 [7100]
- Audio Settings: AC3=0 DTS=0 HD=1 Kbs=640
[15:49:02] PHASE ONE, Encoding
- [15:49:02] Extracting A/V streams [VID_00001]
- [16:06:59] Reencoding: VID_00001 (1 of 1)
[17:31:18]PHASE ONE complete
[17:31:18]PHASE TWO - Rebuild Started
- [17:31:18] Rebuilding BD file Structure
[17:31:26] - Encode and Rebuild complete
- WORKFILES folder removed.
[17:31:26]JOB: HARRY_POTTER_6 finished.
-----------------------
[08:36:23] BD Rebuilder v0.31.05 (beta)
- Source: HARRY_POTTER_6
- Input BD size: 24.05 GB
- Approximate total content: [02:33:30.910]
- Target BD size: 23.68 GB
- Windows Version: 6.1 [7100]
- MOVIE-ONLY mode enabled
- Audio Settings: AC3=0 DTS=0 HD=1 Kbs=640
[08:36:23] PHASE ONE, Encoding
- [08:36:23] Extracting A/V streams [VID_00001]
- [08:53:27] Reencoding: VID_00001 (1 of 1)
[19:33:10]PHASE ONE complete
[19:33:10]PHASE TWO - Rebuild Started
- [19:33:10] Rebuilding BD file Structure
[19:48:37] - Encode and Rebuild complete
- WORKFILES folder removed.
[19:48:39]JOB: HARRY_POTTER_6 finished.

As you can see the High Speed Option takes 1:42:24 hrs, and the Very Slow Option takes 11:22:16 hrs.

[mrswla]

Shouldn't you be able to keep the HD audio if you use the Custom Target Size? Lets say you want a BD-9 size output, but you want to keep the HD sound, and the HD sound is not particularly huge in this instance...for example the latest Harry Potter film has True HD Dolby Digital sound at 703mb.

That leaves approximately 7.2 or 7.1gb (playing it safe) space for the video, doing a movie only backup. Which is considerably more than the total space you have available when doing a DVD-5 backup.

Keep a check mark in the box for retaining HD audio of course.

Is there a flaw in this scenario that I'm not seeing?

I'll test it out and let you know. I have never tried setting custom size that low before.

[ricoman]

I'm using a PS3 connected to a LG 42LG70 (120hz refresh rate) via HDMI and really tell a difference. If there is a difference, it's not worth the extra 10 hrs it takes to encode. Here is the txt file from Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince done with both High Speed Option (BD-25) and Highest (Very Slow).

I assume you meant can't really tell the difference?

Were both encodes "movie only"? The top one doesn't say.

[rr6966]

You may want to try these discs as well. I've burnt probably four packs of these without an error at 6X ( my pioneer lets me burn at 8x ).

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817607008

** I swear BD-R's are coming down in price much faster than DVD+R DL. At this rate in a year and half I won't be using DVD+R DL discs anymore, or almost never.

[Kerry56]

By the way, for those interested in avoiding poor quality BD-R media...avoid those called TW Media, made by ISMM in China. I just found this thread about them: http://club.myce.com/f142/tw-media-factory-usa-278126/

[funnel71]

I'll post my experience in here just in case it helps someone.

I use a Pioneer BDR-203, and it has done quite well. It's an 8x burner. For BD-25s, if you put as low as a 4x in it, the burner will start at 4x, then raise to 8x after about 30% of the burn is complete. For the BD-50s, putting a 2x or 4x in it (haven't tried faster) seems to revert to 2x for the entire burn - an endless 1 hour and 20 minutes to make a fully loaded disc.

Now for which media. I have not spread my wings on trying media from brands I've not heard of. The 2 brands I've done most commonly are the Verbatim for BD-25, and Panasonic (imported) for BD-50...as to which to choose, well if the original BD has very few extra features, and the content of the disc is close to the 25GB range, I'll rip the movie only off, and use a BD-25 on that. If something enormous, and contains lots of goodies, I'll use the BD-50 for a full back up.

As of this writing, I've been getting the Verbatim 25s for about $3 each, and the Panasonic 50s for about $7 imported (still way too expensive here in the US)

Out of 30 or so burns, I've had one coaster (unfortunately it was the Panasonic expensive one that did it), and I'm guessing it was a layer break thing as that's when the burn halted, but all else fine.

Hope this helps someone.

[ricoman]

You may want to try these discs as well. I've burnt probably four packs of these without an error at 6X ( my pioneer lets me burn at 8x ).

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817607008

** I swear BD-R's are coming down in price much faster than DVD+R DL. At this rate in a year and half I won't be using DVD+R DL discs anymore, or almost never.

Can you say the MID and country of origin? That would help for anyone who is recommending or dissing any media. Thanks.

[blusky1]

funnel71 can you tell me where you are getting the BD-50 for 7.00 please.
thanks.

[mrswla]

ricoman, yes I meant to say really can't tell a difference. I believe when I did that high speed encode it was set to full copy, but I did redo it in movie only mode with approx the same time results.

blusky1, funnel71 must be gettting them off ebay if they are imported. I've seen some deals like that on ebay but I'm not confident enough to trust international sellers--especially from china or surrounding areas.

[blusky1]

Thanks Mrswla,
I understand. Looks like Made in Japan is the impotant thing. I'm not a big fan of made in China, anything...

Appreciate the help. Learned a lot from this thread.

[mrswla]

Shouldn't you be able to keep the HD audio if you use the Custom Target Size? Lets say you want a BD-9 size output, but you want to keep the HD sound, and the HD sound is not particularly huge in this instance...for example the latest Harry Potter film has True HD Dolby Digital sound at 703mb.

That leaves approximately 7.2 or 7.1gb (playing it safe) space for the video, doing a movie only backup. Which is considerably more than the total space you have available when doing a DVD-5 backup.

Keep a check mark in the box for retaining HD audio of course.

Is there a flaw in this scenario that I'm not seeing?

I'll test it out and let you know. I have never tried setting custom size that low before.

Finally tried it. Here are my results.
-----------------------
[14:09:09] BD Rebuilder v0.31.05 (beta)
- Source: MOVIE ONLY
- Input BD size: 11.67 GB
- Approximate total content: [02:32:19.136]
- Target BD size: 7.96 GB
- Windows Version: 6.1 [7100]
- Audio Settings: AC3=0 DTS=0 HD=1 Kbs=640
[14:09:09] PHASE ONE, Encoding
- [14:09:09] Extracting A/V streams [VID_00000]
- [14:17:36] Reencoding: VID_00000 (1 of 1)
[21:50:29]PHASE ONE complete
[21:50:29]PHASE TWO - Rebuild Started
- [21:50:29] Rebuilding BD file Structure
[21:50:29] - Encode and Rebuild complete
- WORKFILES folder removed.
[21:50:29]JOB: MOVIE ONLY finished.

It kept HD audio intact and video looks good too. This was a HD-DVD that I converted over to Blu-ray using Clown BD and then "shrinking" with bdrd to a DL-DVD using custom size (8152 mb) leaving everything checked as though it was a BD-25 disc.