AVCHD Sony format help

[tchambers]

I am looking at the new HDR_SR7 or 8 camcorders and I am just not sure about editing and converting to DVD. I have read mixed messages on the problems of doing so and the lack of quality in the end result. Yet everybody insists that AVCHD is the wave of the future in compression and editing. I am looking for informed opinions before spending 1600$ on a camcorder. Also if I understand it correctly, one would have the option of filming in HD mpeg2 if AVCHD was not desired or one did not have a player that would accomodate HD DVD's?

[Soopafresh]

I can give you a few suggestions, but I can't comment on the specific camcorders you mentioned.

Maybe this thread can answer some questions

https://forum.videohelp.com/topic327850.html

The post processing apps for AVCHD are starting to pop up, Elecard has a AVCHD to MPEG2 converter for $75 and Sony's latest version of Vegas supports AVCHD. Will you be able to author an HD-DVD with raw AVCHD footage? I don't know.

My personal take on it all - I just don't like interlacing, and if you can avoid it by shooting with a camera that can do 24P , the results are going to look more pleasing, at least to my eyes. I like the results of the Canon HV20, although it might be not have other features you desire.

http://www.vasher.com/v4/v4_more.php?id=98_0_3_0_M4 HV20 Samples

[tchambers]

Thanks for the link. I have Vegas Studio 7e and I am not concerned that I will not be able to figure out how to capture, edit and burn. I have used Vegas for years and am very comfortable on it. I guess my concern is the quality of final dvd on this mpeg4 compression? Thinking about it, it is probably the next generation and very good. Also, I would have the option of capturing in mpeg 2 as well.

Are you saying that Sony camcorders all interlace?

[Soopafresh]

Try this AVCHD clip and process it in Vegas. You'll get an idea as to general quality.

https://oncourse.iu.edu/access/content/user/rtknapp/00003.MTS

Lots of good reviews here:

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/

[tchambers]

Great Idea, thanks. I will have to tackle tomorrow eve, I have a project due for a meeting in the morning. Guess I had better get my work done first. I will download and get back to you tomorrow. Thanks.

Are you suggesting the Sony interlaces their video? I have no idea, I was just wondering.

Again, thanks.

[Soopafresh]

Depends on the model, but generally, unless it says it can shoot in progressive mode, then assume it is interlaced.

Happy to confuse the issue even more

[tchambers]

Back and I wanted to take a look at the video before tomorrow. Wow, I have to admit, the quality is superior to any of my top of the line Sony's of the past. Tomorrow I will attempt to edit the video.

Do you feel the issue of progressive over interlace should take priority over the beauty of the 100gb drive of the Sony? The beauty of being able to pack that much video without uploading seems wonderful to me.

The website you gave me is one I have been into many times. They seem to have favored the Canon up to this point. I am certainly not knocking Canon as all my digital cameras are Canon incl my digital slr. I am wondering if Sony will grab the limelight with this new sr7 and 8? Anyway, I have a couple of months to make up my mind as they won't be out until sometime in July. Nice to have time to investigate all of this.

Thanks for your help.

[Soopafresh]

Whatever you like is what matters. Check out the editing on the AVCHD and see if it takes long to deinterlace and render to another format, like Mpeg2. Look for artifacts, especially during the camera zooms.

Search around for additional clips from any HD cameras out there that you're interested in, especially low light scenes and shots with lots of movement.

Yeah, the compressed format of AVCHD allows you to film lots of footage without having to transfer the material. Certainly a plus...

In the end, get exactly what you want with as little compromise as possible. Much easier to justify the purchase in your head if you're 100% happy with it.

[tchambers]

Great advice, again thanks. Your mts file (mpeg4) is truly amazing. I have a pretty high end computer and very fast 21 inch flatscreen and wow, the clarity is outstanding. I cannot although open the file in Vegas 7.0e. I have to go back to the drawing board on this. When I get determined, I am hard to stop. I am sure there is a way. I would not let that stop me from getting the camera with avchd capabilities. If nothing else, I am sure Vegas 8.0 addresses this issue. I will keep on a truckin.

[Soopafresh]

You've got the Vegas 7e update. Weird...

What is the error message ?

Aha, this might be the issue:

http://forums.murc.ws/showthread.php?t=61648

[tchambers]

I was wondering if that was the issue. I will check it out tomorrow.

[tchambers]

Here is the official answer to the problem. Panasonic records into a mts file and Sony into a m2ts file. Why, no one knows since the technology was a collaboration. Here is a good post.

Subject: RE: AVCHD for VMS?
Reply by: Tim L
Date: 5/13/2007 9:08:23 AM

Sony has announced that VMS 8, with a targeted release of July, will support AVCHD. This is from a press release when (full) Vegas 7.0E was recently released:

In July of 2007, Sony will also issue an update to its consumer editing software, Vegas Movie Studio Platinum Edition 8, with support for the AVCHD format, which will allow users to edit files in the new AVCHD camcorder recording format based on the MPEG-4 AVC/H.264 codec for video compression and Dolby® digital audio.

Note that this will be a new version of VMS -- presumably requiring an upgrade fee -- not a free update.

Here's a link to the full press release:
www.sonycreativesoftware.com/news/ShowRelease.asp?ReleaseID=662&CatID=0

Note also that with the Vegas 7.0E release, Vegas only supports AVCHD from Sony camcorders. Apparently Panasonic uses a slightly different AVCHD, and it won't work with the current release. I believe I have seen an announcement somewhere that Sony was working on Panasonic support, and does intend to support it soon.

[tchambers]

Soopafresh, fyi, the m2ts file opens and allows editing in Vegas 7.0e. No problem at all. I have a dual core pent 3.5 with a raptor hard drive. 2gb of ram. The clip plays back with just a bit of jerky motion now and then. I will try adding 2 more gigs of ram and see if that fixes it. I would bet that Vegas 8.0 will address this issue.

So now we know that Vegas 7.0e is engineered to open the Sony AVCHD M2TS file and they say that 8.0 will open the Panasonic AVCHD MTS file.

[Soopafresh]

Good to know...

[edDV]

I don't think Sony or Panasonic have taken the step to say AVCHD is yet a quality format. The buzz is it can store to SD flash or MiniDVD which appeals to the wide masses similar to MP3 for music.

MPeg4 H.264 realtime encoders are currently primitive at the consumer level and decompression for editing followed by recompression to H.264 or VC-1 for HD/BD DVD will take awhile to perfect.

This isn't the path for those wanting image quality and by definition requires future hardware for efficiency.

Choice of format is a personal decision. Just be aware of the tradeoffs.

[edDV]

I'm also a non-believer in 24p for the masses. It is a step backwards. You just won't get them to use a heavy tripod or control pans and zooms. 1080i has 1/60 sec motion resolution vs 1/24 and thus more forgiving for typical consumer shooting.

Movies can look good at 24p because those people spend years in film school learning the technique.

Progressive trumps interlace only when 59.94p is possible at consumer prices.

[tchambers]

edDV

"This isn't the path for those wanting image quality and by definition requires future hardware for efficiency".

If that be the case, what would you recomendation be in the last consumer cam I think I will be buying. I don't mind buying more than I might need and would rather do that than make a mistake and not buy enough.

What would you purchase in that 1600 range that would do a better job of picture quality and make editing more feasible?

[edDV]

There is a problem buying anything now when these devices are in such early versions.

Camcorders are locked to the hardware of their manufacturing date. The property that gives longevity to a format is the breadth of support for the standard. I think both HDV and AVCHD will be around for a reasonable number of years.

I was concerned about HDV just being a transition format until Sony chose an almost identical MPeg2 (but varialble bit rate) for their mid level XDCAM-HD format last year. The types of customers buying XDCAM-HD (e.g. the world's broadcast news networks) will insist on long term support. Tape based HDV may decline at the consumer level, but editing software will continue to support the standard. We may even see Blu-Ray/hard disk based XDCAM-HD come down market to Prosumer level.
http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/markets/10014/xdcamhd_info.shtml

I think MPeg4 AVC and SMPTE 421M (VC-1) are the future at the consumer level but current generation hardware is early in evolution. The formats and the hardware will go through several generations before stabilizing IMO. That isn't to say current equipment won't continue to work. It just means newer equipment will perform better.

[tchambers]

I appreciate your input and realize that you are light years ahead of my knowledge curve in this area. That being said, you skirted the question. If you had to choose a consumer cam today or tomorrow, knowing what is on the horizon, what would you purchase?

[edDV]

I have a DV PD-150 and access to a HDV Z1U for more serious work. For a carry around camcorder I'm looking at pro/cons of the normal three.

Canon HV20, Sony HDR-HC7, JVC GZ-HD7

[tchambers]

I have downloaded both mts and mt2s files. I have tried power dvd 7.0, nero 7.0+ and windows media player. I get a beautiful picture on the mt2s (avchd files) files,but it is blocky and jerky in parts. I have downloaded several mt2s clips with the same problem. Does anybody have a fix? I have a dual core pent with 2 gigs of ram. I get the feeling that it is something in the codec's. The mts files play flawlessly.....

[Soopafresh]

Yeah, I've seen that before. Point to an example file with the problem. I think it might have to do with the bitrate in which they were recorded .

And smoke, fog, water, and fire is tough for any codec to capture without macro blocking.

[tchambers]

SR7: http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/d...30/zooma308.htm

[Download this file: ezsm08.m2t (178MB)]

SR1: http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/d...20/zooma273.htm

[Download this file: ezsm.mt2s (101MB)]

It is the mt2s file and if I remember right, he may have the two pages mixed up. Now I played through Vegas 7.0e and it played without blocking out. But if I try to play with any other players, it blocks out badly.

Also, in Vegas, what would you render a mt2s file to if you are going to burn to dvd for HDTV play?

Thanks

[tchambers]

Doing a little more research within the help files of Vegas 7.0e, I find a discussion under the help files concerning rendering AVCHD files. When rendering to be used in blu ray machines, they talk about rendering with blu-print software. They say no more so I am not sure what they mean, or if it comes with the camera, or where you get it. I will keep looking

[Soopafresh]

The 100MB clip doesn't look too bad when encoded to Mpeg2. I'll post a link when uploaded. (25MB)

http://www.filefactory.com/file/367c66/

Then again, I halved the resolution.

Interlacing is weird with AVCHD files. There's a juddery/jerky quality to them. You'll see it on the upward pan on the girl, even though I ran a pretty decent deinterlacer on the clip.

All stuff you might want to consider before plunking down the $$$

[tchambers]

I have played around with the clip in Vegas. I have encoded it to mpeg2 and I don't think I see any jerky action at all. I would like you to take a look at it but not sure how to get it to you? It is about 25mb.

[45tripp]

wikiupload is probably the easiest.
upload and post the link

[tchambers]

http://www.wikiupload.com/download_page.php?id=154430
http://www.filefactory.com/file/0e8c44/

I tired it in both filefactory and wikiupload. Please let me know what you think of the quality as they were AVCHD files downloaded from the net and converted in Vegas to mpeg2 files. I think the quality is pretty good. It plays best in WMP. Thanks

[Soopafresh]

Looks pretty nice and sharp. You might have squeezed the A/R a bit, as your cropped dimensions are 720x368 when (and correct me if I'm wrong, as I usually am 50% or more of the time) it should be 720x400 in a 4x3 frame of 720x480.

So where are the files with the artifact problems?

[tchambers]

interesting that you mention that. Again, I rendered as mainconcept mgeg2 and the template choices were vast and varied but I picked DVD NTSC and the description box said the rendering should be 720x480. I thought it looked a bit smaller than that? Your download filled up my entire WMP screen and mine was about 15% smaller?

What did you think about the smoothness?

Do you feel HDV converted to mpeg2 would be much better than that. Of course we are working with video shot half way around the world and sent over the internet. I am sure virgin files from the camcorder to the computer should be sharper from the get go.

I have no editing fears with AVCHD, I just don't want to trade off alot of quality for new technology.