to interlace or deinterlace, that is the question

[syeager]

OK, I have heard a lot of arguments about this and I am somewhat informed. But apparently, I still do not know enough to make a good DVD of a captured tv clip.

I capture with an ATI TV Wonder Pro at 704x480 at 19mb interlaced mpeg 2. All looks good. It has horizontal lines on images in motion and that would appear to be normal interlace images. All seems to be OK.

I reencode the video using TMPGenc Xpress 3, using all the default settings, much as I always did when I regularly used TMPGenc 2.5. Produces a good quality mpeg2 file, as far as I can tell.

I use various tools to create a DVD, Ulead MovieFactory 2 or ReJig. Both work well. However, viewing the DVD on my three TVs produce different results. On my cheap Zenith 19", the picture looks fine. On my Crosley 27", I see some horizontal lines on areas that move. On my Mitsubishi 34", the picture is filled with interlace artifacts (or so it seems).

What could the problem? And how can I correct it? Or is that the best I can have?

[junkmalle]

Wrong field order.

[edDV]

OK, I have heard a lot of arguments about this and I am somewhat informed. But apparently, I still do not know enough to make a good DVD of a captured tv clip.

I capture with an ATI TV Wonder Pro at 704x480 at 19mb interlaced mpeg 2. All looks good. It has horizontal lines on images in motion and that would appear to be normal interlace images. All seems to be OK.

I reencode the video using TMPGenc Xpress 3, using all the default settings, much as I always did when I regularly used TMPGenc 2.5. Produces a good quality mpeg2 file, as far as I can tell.

I use various tools to create a DVD, Ulead MovieFactory 2 or ReJig. Both work well. However, viewing the DVD on my three TVs produce different results. On my cheap Zenith 19", the picture looks fine. On my Crosley 27", I see some horizontal lines on areas that move. On my Mitsubishi 34", the picture is filled with interlace artifacts (or so it seems).

What could the problem? And how can I correct it? Or is that the best I can have?

Ident the Crosley and Mishushi by type of TV (CRT LCD Plasma DLP etc.) and if possible give Model Numbers, a factory spec link and connection method DVD player to TV.

[edDV]

Wrong field order.

Highly likely. You would also see a jitter during motion.

[SatStorm]

I don't believe it is wrong field order.

There must be a wrong picture resizing that take place here...

I don't use TMPGenc Xpress 3, I use TMPGenc 2.5 and there is an option there called "Video arrange method". I set this to "Full screen (keep aspect ratio 2)". If I set it to "full screen (keep aspect ratio)" and I crop something with TMPGEnc, then this problem appears

[syeager]

What specifics do we need on the TVs?

The Zenith is a SS1937S9. The Mitsubishi is a CK-35402. The Crosley is a CT2525 C202. All are old.

I am not certain about the field order. ATI capture does not specify a field order on its capture interface. The TMPGenc apps all select a field order, but I can only assume it is correct.

I do not notice any jittery movement. All seems smooth and correct, just with distinct horizontal lines on movement on the larger TV screens.

I am not resizing and Xpress does not have that setting.

[junkmalle]

I am not certain about the field order. ATI capture does not specify a field order on its capture interface. The TMPGenc apps all select a field order, but I can only assume it is correct.

TMPGEnc quite often gets the field order wrong. Try the opposite field order on the Setting -> Advanced tab. Make sure it detected it as interlaced, that you're not deinterlacing (same tab), and that it is producing interlaced 29.97 fps output on the Setting -> Video tab.

[thecoalman]

I am not certain about the field order. .

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=257631

[syeager]

I took the example captured clip and reencoded it setting the field order differently and burned them to a DVD. TMPGenc Xpress allowed me to set the input clip setting to either top or bottom and the output encode also allowed for either top or bottom. I then played it on my 19" TV and 34" TV. On both TVs, both bottom-top and bottom-bottom showed definite horizontal lines and a jittery motion. On the 19", both top-top and top-bottom looked great with smooth motion and no horizontal lines. On the 34", both top-top and top-bottom motion was smooth but horizontal lines were evident, though not as bad as the bottom-top or bottom-bottom.

So, it does not look like altering the field order will solve my problem. My original encode was top-top and so had the best field order option. Any other thoughts as to what these horizontal lines are and how to minimize them?

[junkmalle]

Can you provide a short clip (with obvious motion) of both the input and output files? Or open them in VirtualDubMod and save one frame (the same frame) from each (Video -> Snapshot source frame) and post them here.

[SLK001]

Did you perform an IVTC on your captured video? Assuming that your captures are not live video (thus most likely native 29.97fps), a video that is authored at the TV film rate (23.976fps) will look much better than one authored with a hard telecining.

[edDV]

Do separate captures of film and live video (e.g. sports or other non-film clip with motion). Test author them the same way and see if they differ.

I think you are somehow deinterlacing during encoding. How else would you see these artifacts on a normal TV?

You should be capturing and encoding as interlace. Wrong field order will make playback jerky.

[syeager]

Thanks for the responses.

I capture with ATI MMC 9.03 and have an option for inverse 3:2 pulldown, which I do not enable. I capture interlaced and not progressive source nor deinterlaced. It is captured from TV, so source is interlaced. I am not given an option on framerate. AVIdemux says the captured clip is 29.97 fps. When encoding, I leave the resolution, frame rate, and interlace the same as the capture. I only modify the bitrate to something that will fit on a single DVDR.

I am posting a clip from the original capture file. It shows the kinds of lines I am seeing. Now, this is an interlaced frame. All the other rendered files show the same degree of lines, although, because of the ordering, they will show different frames clean and others with lines. Still the same number of frames with these lines in all of them.

[edDV]

Not alot of motion in the picture but it does show evidence of deinterlacing. You can see it as double imaging everwhere there is motion. both fields are visible.

In order to make this still to post here you would need to deinterlace. But if you are seeing this on the TV, deinterlacing is happening in the editing-encoding process.

[edDV]

It is captured from TV, so source is interlaced. I am not given an option on framerate. ...

I am posting a clip from the original capture file.

It shows the kinds of lines I am seeing. Now, this is an interlaced frame. All the other rendered files show the same degree of lines, although, because of the ordering, they will show different frames clean and others with lines. Still the same number of frames with these lines in all of them.

Oh!

You say it is only on some frames? That is probably normal telecine 3:2 process.

Read this:
http://www.dvdfile.com/news/special_report/production_a_z/3_2_pulldown.htm

And review these threads:
https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=284614&highlight=ivtc
https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=285363&highlight=deinterlace



The red shows telecine split fields. Green hints at the IVTC process.

Try non-film TV. Sports, News, live, etc. If you see it there then it is something different.

[junkmalle]

SLK001 asked this earlier but there was no response: Are you trying to inverse telecine (IVTC) the video? Fully interlaced sources (live sporting events, news, etc) can't be IVTC'd. And even with telecined movies TMPGEnc's IVTC isn't perfect.

In TMPGEnc Plus IVTC can be manually selected or it will be automatically selected if you tell it your source is "film". I don't know about TMPGEnc Express since I don't have it.

By the way: from the sample image you posted, assuming the car was moving forward (left to right in the image), then your source is indeed top field first. Setting the source as TFF and encoding it that way should result in a proper playback on TV via DVD.

[SLK001]

That movie is telecined very poorly. I had trouble with it when I just stripped out the pulldown flags, because a lot of them are in the wrong place. So, when you look at what SHOULD be a progressive frame, you see the interlace artifacts that you are seeing.

I had to re-encode with an IVTC filter to remove the lines.

I am, of course, refering to STARGATE, the Ultimate Edition (or extended edition, or whatever...).

[edDV]

If the issue happens only if the source is film based and the field split happens on a 3 frame good, 2 frames split sequence then you are seeing normal telecine that is necessary to pad additional fields to match 23.976 film to 29.97 video.

Other things could be going on if field order is wrong or your process is forcing IVTC on inappropriate sources or if deinterlace (frame modes) are being used.

[edDV]

Here is an example of a normal NTSC film telecine sequence and yes, the mixed fields will be visible on a TV if you stop frame motion. Depending on how the DVD player stop frames, you may see frozen still like below or a 60Hz flicker as the fields alternate. You won't notice any of this at 1x speed.











After 5 frames the sequence repeats

[syeager]

OK. So, I can use various programs, I use TMPGenc and Xpress to IVTC and properly converting the video from 29.97 to 23.976. And it looks good. However, when I use my tools to make a DVD, it uses the 23.976 fps video and fast motion looks jerky or distorted. Not certain what the issue is. Maybe I should specify the output as 23.976. I think it said it was 29.97. Also, VirtualDubMpeg and Ulead VideoStudio 7 and MovieFactory 2 all seem to think the clip is 29.97. Please help.