Panasonic DVD recorder passthrough settings (DMR-ES10, DMR-ES15, DMR-ES25)

[jjeff]

My EH50 was not included in this test and I can't seem to find the brightness issue with it. However, I have a different kind of issue when using the SCART to S-Video & Composite adapter: it introduces a noticeable noise, like small but annoying diagonal white lines. My adapter is kind of cheap, but are there any quality adapters for sale?

Do you see the white lines when playing something or just recording? The reason I ask is the EH-50 is very prone to what I call "noisy line inputs". They were made around the time the market was flooded with cheap Chinese capacitors and probably half my EH-50s have been shelved because of this It's sad because otherwise, the EH-50 has proven to be rock solid, their burners have held up very well, unlike Panasonics of only one year later, the EH-55 EH-75v and similar.
Unfortunatly because of the bad capacitors it's my belief most of this vintage Panasonics and other brands will gradually be recycled and standalone DVD burners will just be a blip in history

[tugatomsk]

My EH50 was not included in this test and I can't seem to find the brightness issue with it. However, I have a different kind of issue when using the SCART to S-Video & Composite adapter: it introduces a noticeable noise, like small but annoying diagonal white lines. My adapter is kind of cheap, but are there any quality adapters for sale?

Do you see the white lines when playing something or just recording? The reason I ask is the EH-50 is very prone to what I call "noisy line inputs". They were made around the time the market was flooded with cheap Chinese capacitors and probably half my EH-50s have been shelved because of this It's sad because otherwise, the EH-50 has proven to be rock solid, their burners have held up very well, unlike Panasonics of only one year later, the EH-55 EH-75v and similar.
Unfortunatly because of the bad capacitors it's my belief most of this vintage Panasonics and other brands will gradually be recycled and standalone DVD burners will just be a blip in history

Those white lines only appear when I used the scart to composite & s-video adapter. When I use the S-video out connector directly, everything's fine.

[oln]

Are you sure it's set to output s-video over scart? If it is it could be a bad adapter yeah.

They were made around the time the market was flooded with cheap Chinese capacitors and probably half my EH-50s have been shelved because of this

If it's the power supply filter capacitors you are talking about they are pretty straight forward to replace (at least as long as there isn't any knock-on damage to other components).

[jjeff]

Are you sure it's set to output s-video over scart? If it is it could be a bad adapter yeah.

They were made around the time the market was flooded with cheap Chinese capacitors and probably half my EH-50s have been shelved because of this

If it's the power supply filter capacitors you are talking about they are pretty straight forward to replace (at least as long as there isn't any knock-on damage to other components).

I'm not sure if the line-input hash line issue is related to power supply capacitors, other capacitors or ??
I was told by mickinCT over at AVS that he has seen this issue and thought he'd be able to fix it for me but as I always had other EH-50s to use I just gradually shelved my stock and now I rarely use DVDRs, particularly HDD ones so I haven't done anything about it. It does seem to be a rather specific problem, just affecting all line inputs(S-video and composite not the analog tuner) so I'm not sure it would be power supply capacitors, which I'd think would affect more things, but I don't know. I do know the issue is quite noticeable in specific circumstances and once you see it and know about it, at least myself I'd never want to use it to record any more until fixed. It sounds like tugatomsk is having a different issue though.

[plehoediv]

BTW, I can get a DMR-E55 for really cheap. Are those any good?

Thanks.

[jjeff]

BTW, I can get a DMR-E55 for really cheap. Are those any good?

Thanks.

It depends. It's an '04 model and only records to RAM and -R DVDs. IMO if using it for recording I'd consider it an SP or 2hr(or 1hr) machine only as any speeds longer than 2h/DVD will be a noticeable 1/2 D1 resolution. It's kind of a nice looking DVDR with it's mirror finish front and while I do have one, I don't really use it. I suppose it might make a nice passthru machine for those interested in Panasonics mild TBC for passthru but I'm not 100% it has that feature. I know the next model year including the ES-10 and next next year model year including the ES-15 are known for that, again I'm not sure about '04 models like the E55.
I do occasionally see them for cheap on my local C.L. and thats where I got mine but I personally would pass, mainly due to the 1/2 resolution thing as I don't like it. My guess is being a very early model the build quality should be quite good and I haven't really heard anything about '04's having the capacitor failure issue but again I'm not totally sure.

[plehoediv]

BTW, I can get a DMR-E55 for really cheap. Are those any good?

Thanks.

It depends. It's an '04 model and only records to RAM and -R DVDs. IMO if using it for recording I'd consider it an SP or 2hr(or 1hr) machine only as any speeds longer than 2h/DVD will be a noticeable 1/2 D1 resolution. It's kind of a nice looking DVDR with it's mirror finish front and while I do have one, I don't really use it. I suppose it might make a nice passthru machine for those interested in Panasonics mild TBC for passthru but I'm not 100% it has that feature. I know the next model year including the ES-10 and next next year model year including the ES-15 are known for that, again I'm not sure about '04 models like the E55.
I do occasionally see them for cheap on my local C.L. and thats where I got mine but I personally would pass, mainly due to the 1/2 resolution thing as I don't like it. My guess is being a very early model the build quality should be quite good and I haven't really heard anything about '04's having the capacitor failure issue but again I'm not totally sure.

Hey, thanks for the detailed reply. Since I already have a ES15, I am going to pass. Thanks.

[Xhumeka]

BTW, I can get a DMR-E55 for really cheap. Are those any good?

Thanks.

I showed sample clips comparing it to an ES-10 and EH-55 in this very same thread:

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/403635-Panasonic-DVD-recorder-passthrough-settings...e7#post2672918

[plehoediv]

BTW, I can get a DMR-E55 for really cheap. Are those any good?

Thanks.

I showed sample clips comparing it to an ES-10 and EH-55 in this very same thread:

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/403635-Panasonic-DVD-recorder-passthrough-settings...e7#post2672918

Ok, cool. Thanks.

[oln]

t sure if the line-input hash line issue is related to power supply capacitors, other capacitors or ??
.

No idea. What does it look like? The main symptom of power supply cap failure is failure to turn on properly at all. (afaik some models have certain caps on the mainboard that can fail too from what I've seen online) I've seen examples of it causing some picture interference too since it will result in unstable reference voltage but it could be something completely different. I've seen the in/out mixing chip being pointed to as often being problematic too which would be much more of a pain to fix.

[SlavaVlasov]

Hi all. I'm new here.
I own a Panasonic DMR-ES15 and use it as a TBC to digitize VHS. I found the setting "Setup > Connection > Progressive > On". DMR-ES15 is connected to the capture board via S-VIDEO. I capture in DV AVI (in the Grass Valley DV codec) in interlaced scanning.
Question: does this setting somehow affect the final image sent to the capture card?

[oln]

No that setting is only relevant for the component (and on later models, HDMI) output. (It's possible it disables s-video/RGB over scart in some cases but not entirely sure.) It makes the component (and HDMI) outputs output deinterlaced output for potentially slightly nicer output on a very old TV but there's generally very little reason to use it these days.

[Xhumeka]

No that setting is only relevant for the component (and on later models, HDMI) output.

Although I don't normally capture using my EH55, I have performed quite a few tests out of curiosity and find these settings the best for my particular HDMI capture device (LGP2P which captures at 1920x1080 60fps):



The only resolution options are:



Although the EH55 does a decent job at deinterlacing/decombing it's still apparent at times.

[lordsmurf]

It's an '04 model

Those '02-04 models were infamous for garbage quality, no TBC of any kind. No exceptions, all of them. The ES10 was the first unit with any sort of TBC(ish) aspects, nothing before. It was the first of a new design.

This is why this thread is starting to get off the rails. BS info in here is going to lead newbies astray, cause them to waste money on crap. I don't like that.

Post-ES10, the models got weaker and weaker, then strayed again to crap models. You must be careful. ES10/15 safest, the rest less so. Too easily confused from model number-letter combo, PAL vs. NTSC, etc.

[Skiller]

@Xhumeka
You could go with the 480p setting and then proceed as discussed in this thread and especially this script by jagabo to retrieve the original fields and end up with the original 480i.


I wouldn't consider upscaling to 1080i by the Panasonic to be a reasonable option for capturing VHS. It is not really good at it either and the artifacts it creates along the way are then forever burned in.

[Alwyn]

It appears to me that it's the digitiser that determines what HDMI resolutions are available. For example, on my Panny EH-57:

Startech USB3HDCAP and Cheap $15 stick:


[Attachment 70207 - Click to enlarge]

Midrange $40 "4k Ultra HD" digitiser and $15 dongle:


[Attachment 70208 - Click to enlarge]

[Xhumeka]

@Xhumeka
You could go with the 480p setting and then proceed as discussed in this thread and especially this script by jagabo to retrieve the original fields and end up with the original 480i.


I wouldn't consider upscaling to 1080i by the Panasonic to be a reasonable option for capturing VHS. It is not really good at it either and the artifacts it creates along the way are then forever burned in.

Thanks for the link Skiller! I'm going to try that and see how I make out. Cheers!

[SlavaVlasov]

HDMI capture device (LGP2P which captures at 1920x1080 60fps):

I understand correctly that this model can make an "hardware VHS upscale" up to 1080i?

[Eric-jan]

No that setting is only relevant for the component (and on later models, HDMI) output. (It's possible it disables s-video/RGB over scart in some cases but not entirely sure.) It makes the component (and HDMI) outputs output deinterlaced output for potentially slightly nicer output on a very old TV but there's generally very little reason to use it these days.

(mostly valid for EU/PAL tv-system)
It's about what you use to watch/view video > SCART RGB gives best view quality for a CRT on SCART (better then composite) s-video was only used on vcr's for camcorders, But LCD flatscreens had also component RCA connections, and one could set component into progressive mode,
The only thing is RGB SCART can not be used at the same time with HDMI/RCA component progressive mode.
progressive mode can only be used over component video-out or over HDMI, not over s-video or composite
SCART and HDMI also takes better care for aspect-ratio settings
The only thing not clear is, what color levels does Panasonic use in it's VHS refresh "feature" ? 601 or 709 ? since the VHS refresh "feature" is digitizing each frame/field…
@Xhumeka
Which other options gives this function :

[Attachment 71063 - Click to enlarge]

I guess the naming "enhanced" is the same as "full range" (0-255) ? the other option is "Limited" (16-235) ?
You should set it to "Limited" most hardware and capture devices work with "Limited" on their input.

It appears to me that it's the digitiser that determines what HDMI resolutions are available. For example, on my Panny EH-57:

I do see a quality difference in the two pictures ! look at the borders of the yellow color from both pictures….

Also, the option Ctrl with HDMI to "Off" could make a difference for the greyed out resolutions, is that also been tested ?

The resolution setting on the EH will only have effect on the aspect ratio ? the resolution setting of the capture device will be final.

[Master Tape]

No, not the same. It's a brightness echo or pumping (see Bogilein's video) whenever there is a sudden strong change in overall brightness of the current few frames. It's rather difficult to spot without a test sequence.

The issue arises because of the way the signal is internally duplicated off the lines that go to the Scart connector. As in Scart gets the original signal, whereas separate S-Video and Composite connectors get the inferior signal copy, thus should be avoided. Audio is not affected.

So scart should be used for input aswell as output? I was using scart for the output as mentioned by the OP, but for the input was using AV4 S-Video port, and was getting the rising brightness issue.

Edit: Having changed the input to AV2 scart, i can't get it to display on my capture card.

[Kimblerulez]

PAL units[LIST][*]For the first generation of PAL models, SCART output must be used. The other outputs suffer from a brightness variation. [1] [2]

How can we tell if it is a first generation of PAL model please?

[Brad]

"For the first generation of PAL models, SCART output must be used. The other outputs suffer from a brightness variation. [1] [2]"

How can we tell if it is a first generation of PAL model please?

Welcome to the forum!

I recently learned that this statement isn't accurate, but I'm not sure what I should change it to.

Bogilein, Skiller, anyone else who's a member of the German forum: Please provide a suggestion for the best wording to replace the quoted line of my OP.


Kimblerulez: For now, I present you some options:

1. If you already have a DMR...
   1. To be safe, you could just assume that your model is affected. The only downside is that using a SCART adapter is a little less convenient / more expensive.
   2. Let us know the model number. If it's already been tested, someone can tell you.
   3. You could run a test to check for yourself, if you can play a purpose-made test pattern file. The easiest way is to burn a DVDR.
2. If you don't have a DMR yet and you're looking for a model number known to be free of this issue, there are at least a few that are known.

Link to Bogilein's test-pattern comparison of 8 models.

[Kimblerulez]

[*]If you don't have a DMR yet and you're looking for a model number known to be free of this issue, there are at least a few that are known.[/LIST]Link to Bogilein's test-pattern comparison of 8 models.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for the welcome and reply. I have just bought a Pal Panasonic DMR-ES15. From your reply, I am assuming that I do need to use the scart output on this one? I originally thought that you meant earlier versions of the Panasonic DMR-ES15.

[Kimblerulez]

I meant to ask, what model is considered the best one for this purpose? and also I have a scart to RCA converter, is that what I should use? Or is there such a thing as a scart to s-video adaptor?

[Bogilein]

@Brad
In German it would be called brightness pumping (Helligkeitspumpen) or brightness fluctuation (Helligkeitsschwankungen).

The brightness pumping should only occur with abrupt changes from light to dark image contents (and vice versa), but not constantly.

It is hardly noticeable under normal circumstances, yet the white level fluctuates noticeably depending on the image content. In the case of rapid changes in brightness and darkness (e.g. in concert recordings with lighting effects) you can see it very well, even if it is not immediately noticeable.

The whole thing is apparently connected to the internal signal routing/duplication.

@Kimblrulez
you should use something like these

[Attachment 72353 - Click to enlarge]

or


[Attachment 72354 - Click to enlarge]

[Eric-jan]

One should prefer the non cable version, unles there's a switch on the SCART plug, like in the first picture, to switch to INPUT or OUTPUT, or be very sure that cable version is the correct one for your needs. it's a detail, but important in this case.
Gold plated is overkill btw….

[Brad]

@Brad
In German it would be called brightness pumping (Helligkeitspumpen) or brightness fluctuation (Helligkeitsschwankungen).

Sorry for not being more clear. I'd like to reword the statement about the "first generation" of PAL models. The reality appears to be that "most"(?) of them are affected.

Gubel's guide now reads:

• Die separaten rückseitigen Video-Buchsen (betrifft NUR die AUSgänge) ALLER Panasonic DVD-Recorder sind FEHLERHAFT und führen zu Helligkeitsschwankungen je nach Bildinhalt. Daher sollten die separaten FBAS-Cinch-, S-Video-Hossiden- und 3xYUV-Cinch-Ausgänge nicht zum Abgreifen verwendet werden! Nur der SCART-AV1-Ausgang liefert einwandfreie Signale!

• The separate rear video sockets (concerns ONLY the OUTPUTS) of ALL Panasonic DVD recorders are ERROR and lead to brightness fluctuations depending on the picture content. Therefore, the separate CVBS RCA, S-Video and 3xYUV RCA outputs should not be used for tapping! Only the SCART AV1 output provides perfect signals!

But your comparison video shows that not every unit is affected. Is there a current consensus?

[Kimblerulez]

@Bogilein
Thanks for that. That connector shows an arrow under the s-video suggesting that it is video in? I know there is an in/out switch but what does the arrow mean?

[Skiller]

At the time, all (PAL) models we tested were affected (hence Gubel's statement in the guide). Until Bogilein's recent test, this is what I believed to be accurate. But at the time we only tested various ES, EH and EX models, not the older and somehow much less common ones such as HS2 and E55, which apparently and surprisingly are not affected as demonstrated by Bogilein's recent test (link).

"For the first generation of PAL models, SCART output must be used. The other outputs suffer from a brightness variation."

Therefore, it appears to me that it is the opposite, and the first generation (if it is accurate at all to call them "first generation") is not affected, whereas anything after is.
Although this raises another question: are HS2, E55 and similar actually capable of aiding a capture process in the same fashion as later models?



My suggestion, in hindsight of the rarity of these older machines which are not affected, would be:


For PAL models, SCART output must be used (except for models which are not ES, EH and EX).
The other outputs suffer from a brightness variation.

[Sharc]

Although this raises another question: are HS2, E55 and similar actually capable of aiding a capture process in the same fashion as later models?

For the E55 I would say yes, despite the different chipset it uses compared to the most recommended models. At least what concerns "line TBC" functionality it is rock solid (no flagging, no wiggling). My tapes are in reasonable condition though .... so maybe not a real stress test.