Panasonic DVD recorder passthrough settings (DMR-ES10, DMR-ES15, DMR-ES25)

[Sharc]

For a comparison of DVD recorder models one should actually be more specific with model designations as sold for different (PAL) countries it seems.
From Service Manuals one concludes for example that DMR-ES15 PL uses a different video processing chipset than DMR-ES15 EB/EC/EG/EP/EBL. All are generally referred to as "DMR-ES15" though.
Similarly, the chipset of DMR-EH50 P/PC is different from DMR-EH50 EB/EG/EP.
Or DMR-E55 EB/EG/EP are different from DMR-E55 EBL.
Or DMR-EH50 P/PC is different from DMR-EH50 EB/EG/EP.
And so on. Oh well ........
The DMR-ES10 (EB/EC/EG/EP/EBL) seems to be the most consistent and unique in this respect. I haven't seen any aliases so far.

[Brad]

I pulled out all 3 units, and did 6 separate captures with and without DNR enabled.
[...]
Here are the raw files if anyone wants to compare outside of YouTube: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1g6mA6_aBVZ7cr9Ote1DF1ndt53wCz7fc?usp=sharing

And here is the comparison on YouTube:

Thanks for the comparison. It's often said that the DMR-ES10 is superior to the newer models, but I've never seen anyone offer an A/B test. In your samples, I think it's clear that the DMR-E55 is underperforming vs the other two. Personally, I can't differentiate EH55 vs ES10 here.

Not that it makes a difference for the purpose of your video, but I've added a note to the first post in this thread: S-Video output should be used, never composite.

Also, when doing sequential repeated tests for comparison, the analog signal from the tape player (VCR) will never be the same between tests (not 100% reproducible analog source, glitches, noise, etc.) which can make the comparison sometimes difficult.

It's worse than that. I've done comparisons using two DMR-ES15 units both accepting the same S-Video signal simultaneously from my Mitsubishi HS-HD2000U (it has two, plus two CVBS outputs). Each ES15 internally dropped/inserted frames at different places.

For a comparison of DVD recorder models one should actually be more specific with model designations as sold for different (PAL) countries it seems.
From Service Manuals one concludes for example that DMR-ES15 PL uses a different video processing chipset than DMR-ES15 EB/EC/EG/EP/EBL. All are generally referred to as "DMR-ES15" though.

DMR-ES15PL is the variant exclusive to Brazil. It supports PAL-M 525-line 60Hz instead of PAL 625-line 50Hz, so we already knew it wasn't directly comparable.

Similarly, the chipset of DMR-EH50 P/PC is different from DMR-EH50 EB/EG/EP.
Or DMR-E55 EB/EG/EP are different from DMR-E55 EBL.
Or DMR-EH50 P/PC is different from DMR-EH50 EB/EG/EP.

DMR-EH50P/PC are the NTSC-only 120V Region 1 versions.

Is DMR-E55 EB (UK) really different from EBL (Ireland)? They share the same Operating Instructions manual.

[oln]

For a comparison of DVD recorder models one should actually be more specific with model designations as sold for different (PAL) countries it seems.
From Service Manuals one concludes for example that DMR-ES15 PL uses a different video processing chipset than DMR-ES15 EB/EC/EG/EP/EBL. All are generally referred to as "DMR-ES15" though.

I've never seen the schematic for the digital PCB shown in any of the SMs for the models from the DMR-ES10 and on, it just shows the AV input/output switching chip (which may well be different in the PL variant ofc.) This does make it a bit harder to infer what models have what chipsets.

As digital PCBs, my ES10 and ES30V (both EC-S) seem to have nearly the exact same digital board with only the last letter being different - VEP79104B for the ES10 and VEP79104F for the ES30V. The SM for the ES10P (US variant) lists the digital board as VEP79104A, and the VEP79104E here for the US ES30 seems to have the same ICs so looks like they used the same chips for the north american and european variants for these. The most relevant chips seem to be the MN2DS0012-H and AN13352A, think the others are RAM/ROM/voltage reg stuff.

[Attachment 67686 - Click to enlarge]

[Attachment 67687 - Click to enlarge]

[Attachment 67688 - Click to enlarge]

[Attachment 67689 - Click to enlarge]

The SMs seem to list some of the Digital PCB names like RFKBES30VEC which may just be an alias or smth as my EC model as shown has the same VEP79104F as listed for the ES30VEG in this manual.


The EH50 seems to have slightly different digital PCB from what I've seen in pictures/manualsVEP79106A for the P variant , probably due to the HDD connectors etc being on it. I can't find any images showing the ICs though at least this parts site indicates it uses the same main IC (though idk how reliable it is.

The later models seem to often have a heatsink on the main IC which makes it harder to make out as seen e.g here. Some googling seems to indicate the ES15 and ES35Vs may also have related digital PCBs between different variants.

On the later "EZ" US variants it looks like you can often see the main IC with a LSI or Magnum Logo illustrating the different chipset used on those, while e.g this board from a european EZ27/28 has a panasonic main IC. Twitter person foone documented the main board on a US EZ485V which also shows a Magnum DoMiNo main IC and a TVP5150AM video decoder (same IC as in some capture dongles like the ATI 600 USB).

[Sharc]

Is DMR-E55 EB (UK) really different from EBL (Ireland)? They share the same Operating Instructions manual.

Yes, same Operating Instructions manual.
The parts list in the Service Manual however indicates for the video processor IC3001
- C1AB00001918 for the DMR-E55 EB, EG, EP, E53
- C1AB00001979 for the DMR-E55 EBL
and there are few more components which share the same Ref. No. but have a different Part No. with different specifications.

[Eric-jan]

So, what i now understand, the user experience for an US or europe (NTSC/PAL) version model of the same name type can be totally different ?

[oln]

The parts list in the Service Manual however indicates for the video processor IC3001

IC3001 looks like a switching/buffering IC in the SM, the video processing stuff seems to be on the digital PCB (which unlike later models actually has schematics in this one). IC3401 (AN13310BA) is a ADC/DAC from what I can find so the processing is probably done in IC6001 (MN2DS0010-H) and/or IC3404 (MN85573). The ES10 and later models seem to have a somewhat similar setup but with different ICs

[Brad]

@Sharc, @oln, may we continue in my "chips" thread instead?
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/405328-Integrated-TBC-chips-%28-TBCish-%29-the-dev...fo#post2673070

[Sharc]

Also, when doing sequential repeated tests for comparison, the analog signal from the tape player (VCR) will never be the same between tests (not 100% reproducible analog source, glitches, noise, etc.) which can make the comparison sometimes difficult.

Agreed... so take the following test with a grain of salt.

I pulled out all 3 units, and did 6 separate captures with and without DNR enabled. It seems enabling DNR on the EH55 does improve things a bit.

The ES10 as you folks predicted does indeed seem to do a better job than the other 2 units.

Here are the raw files if anyone wants to compare outside of YouTube: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1g6mA6_aBVZ7cr9Ote1DF1ndt53wCz7fc?usp=sharing

And here is the comparison on YouTube:

Nice test Xhumeka. A bit surprising to me was the difference between the E55 and the EH55, with the EH55 performing much better. Checking the Service Manuals indicates that the difference between the two models is not just the HardDisk. They are using a totally different video processing chipset, it seems.
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/405328-Integrated-TBC-chips-%28-TBCish-%29-the-dev...Reference-info

[oln]

Yeah the EH55 is 2 years newer (from 2006) than the E55, The same lineup also has e.g the ES15 and the ES35V combo deck. They seem to have done a pretty major update to the hardware, design and user interface in the 2005 models like the ES10, ES30 and EH50 (ES20 is also from that year but that one is very different) and onwards.

[Sharc]

Yeah the EH55 is 2 years newer (from 2006) than the E55, The same lineup also has e.g the ES15 and the ES35V combo deck. They seem to have done a pretty major update to the hardware, design and user interface in the 2005 models like the ES10, ES30 and EH50 (ES20 is also from that year but that one is very different) and onwards.

Ah yes, thanks. Found it in Bogilein's lists:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/403635-Panasonic-DVD-recorder-passthrough-settings...e4#post2669712
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/403635-Panasonic-DVD-recorder-passthrough-settings...e4#post2669328

[Bogilein]

I am surprised that the ES10 & the EH55 achieve such a clear improvement over the E55.
In my tests with the various Panasonic DMR's, the main focus was on jitter correction and here the E55 was pretty much on par with the ES10.
I will go through my VHS collection to find a cassette with a similar error pattern and let my various DMR's compete against each other.

At first glance at the upload on YouTube it actually looks very good, but if you look at the uploaded mp4 files in the zip folder closer you realize that it is not so perfect. I would definitely try another video recorder in conjunction with the ES10 (EH55) and disable the VCR's auto-tracking and play around a little with the manual tracking buttons.

[Sharc]

I am surprised that the ES10 & the EH55 achieve such a clear improvement over the E55.
In my tests with the various Panasonic DMR's, the main focus was on jitter correction and here the E55 was pretty much on par with the ES10.

Similar experience here when comparing my E55 with my EH50 (all PAL). Not a huge gap between the two, the E55 supresses flagging and line jitter pretty well. I was also wondering why you didn't include TBC or (TBC) for the E55 in your list in post#112. Maybe its "TBC" functionality is somewhat inferior to the ES10 or ES15, but at least the block diagram in the E55 Service Manual (Matsushita 2004) includes a "TBC" functional block (IC3404, MN85573R) which restores/re-times horizontal line sync pulses cleanly (checked with a scope).
Looking forward to your planned tests

[rgr]

(TBC): in the datasheet of the devices (on the website) a TBC is mentioned
2008 Panasonic DMR-EH585 ||250GB,HDMI,(TBC),12bit
2008 Panasonic DMR-EH58 ||250GB,HDMI

Are you sure that the European EH58 has no TBC compared to the American EH585 (EH57 and EH575 have)?
I have both (one fails to boot due to a faulty DVD drive).

[Bogilein]

from the 2008 model Panasonic DMR-EX71 I had no more access to the data sheets on the panasonic website therefore I cannot say whether the following devices still had a TBC according to data sheet

[oln]

I have an European EH58 and can confirm it acts pretty much the same as the European EH57 when it comes to TBC stuff.

[rgr]

I have three of these units now (can't pass them up in the thrift store when I see them!) - an ES10, an E55, and an EH55. The ES10 might do a better job like you guys claim, but I find it hard to tell. I plan on doing a direct comparison some day when I get a chance.

My conclusions/experience (PAL region):
ES10, EH50, EH52 are using the same video chipsets and provide the best passthrough results.
ES15, EH55, EH56 are using a different video chip but provide the same or nearly the same results as the ES10 family
E55, E53 are again using a different chipset and can't catch up with the former. Still useful for removing tearing and flagging though.

Which of the following groups is EH57 (and EH575) in? In the middle one?
(I checked the classifieds site and these models - EH50, EH52, EH56 - go for 40-50 USD/EUR and I don't know whether to reanimate my DVD Recorders).

[oln]

Yeah should be similar to the ones in middle one, EH57 and 575 is from the year after those. I don't have a ES15, EH55 or EH56 but the EH57 and EH58 I have works about as well as my ES10 and ES30 just very subtly different on some tapes.

[Sharc]

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/403635-Panasonic-DVD-recorder-passthrough-settings...e4#post2669328
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/403635-Panasonic-DVD-recorder-passthrough-settings...e4#post2669712
Comparing the diagrams of EH55 and EH57 they look much the same for the video section and use the same video processor chip, so I would expect that they behave the same in passthrough mode.

[Skiller]

I have a EH575 (PAL) and I would agree with it being in the middle.

[rgr]

I have a EH575 (PAL) and I would agree with it being in the middle.

My mistake -- I have EH58 and EH585. But I don't think it changes much.

Anyway, I did this test:

* left side of the screen
Clip from a Toshiba VCR (range 16-255), passed through a DMR-EH585 (SCART->SCART video), recorded by a cheap Ferguson recorder (MPEG2)

* right side of the screen
As above, but already recorded by DMR-EH585.

The image saved by Panasonic is brighter, has more details, but also more noise. You can see, for example, in the 48s, the fatal rendering of the white wall. I don't see such flicker on the TV, the image on the TV is good and stable.
Is the recording in MPEG2 on Panasonic really so bad?
(I will still record on Ferguson with SCART OUT set to RGB on EH585 -- the picture seems better).

(mp4 file attached, MPEG2 source, yadif, H264+CRF17)

[Sharc]

And where got the videos deinterlaced? I think the source was interlaced.

[rgr]

[
(I will still record on Ferguson with SCART OUT set to RGB on EH585 -- the picture seems better).

(mp4 file attached, MPEG2 source, yadif, H264+CRF17)

* left side
As before, only SCART OUT set to RGB (on S-Video I get a black&white picture).

What I noticed -- frame 32. You can see the image jump on DMR, not on Ferguson.

[rgr]

And where got the videos deinterlaced? I think the source was interlaced.

Yes.

VideoLeft=ffms2("1-V(RGB,part).mpg").yadif().trim(54,0)
VideoRight=ffms2("1-Vp.mpg").yadif()

[Sharc]

I don't think the purpose of this thread is to compare crappy mpeg2 encodes, poor deinterlacers, oversharpend pictures with halos etc.

[rgr]

I don't think the purpose of this thread is to compare crappy mpeg2 encodes, poor deinterlacers, oversharpend pictures with halos etc.

Yes, but:
a) deinterlacers are not very important for VHS material. I compared several and the effect is imperceptible with a noisy VHS;
b) too strong colors are the effect of Toshiba's VCR and its output scale YUV 16-255;
c) some reference VHS material would be useful for the evaluation, but I already see that the SCART/RGB output gives a better image than SCART/VIDEO. What am I surprised about but I don't know if I should?

It's time to test the HDMI output, but I don't have a good grabber

[oln]

YUV 16-255 is talking about digital values, the toshiba won't be outputting a digital signal so I guess you mean that the saturation on the output is a bit high?

What ferguson dvd recorder is it? Some dvd-recorders (like the one using LSI/Magnum chipsets) do some noise reduction during encoding depending on quality setting. The quality setting for recording otherwise will also have some impact. SCART with RGB enabled could either result in the signal going as RGB between the dvd-recorders, or it could result in it going via composite if the input or cable lacks rgb support. RGB can carry more detail/accuracy than S-Video though from vhs input the difference should be marginal. If it's composite that ends up being used the signal will be mixed down to compsite and then separated again so could have some impact on image quality.

[rgr]

YUV 16-255 is talking about digital values, the toshiba won't be outputting a digital signal so I guess you mean that the saturation on the output is a bit high?

Yes. To put it exactly - the histogram of the recorded MPEG2 file from VCR Toshiba is in the range of 16-254 (the same tape played in VCR Panasonic is 16-235). The image is obviously brighter and has light colors burned when playing as a typical MPG file.

BUT: This happens when I record the image on the DMR-EH585 or pass it to Ferguson via SCART(RGB). If I pass through SCART(VIDEO) the picture is in the range of 16-235.

What ferguson dvd recorder is it? SCART with RGB enabled could either result in the signal going as RGB between the dvd-recorders, or it could result in it going via composite if the input or cable lacks rgb support. RGB can carry more detail/accuracy than S-Video though from vhs input the difference should be marginal. If it's composite that ends up being used the signal will be mixed down to compsite and then separated again so could have some impact on image quality.

RW-770HD
https://imgur.com/a/lfQ9jmJ
https://www.manualsdir.com/manuals/433015/ferguson-rw-770-hd.html?page=49

Simple equipment, but unlike Panasonic, it can simultaneously save recordings to a disc, record another recording and edit recordings on a disc.

Some dvd-recorders (like the one using LSI/Magnum chipsets) do some noise reduction during encoding depending on quality setting. The quality setting for recording otherwise will also have some impact.

As described in the manual
-DominoFX™ - a trademark representing Visibly Superior digital video processing technology
-TrueScan™ Pro - a progressive scan function that eliminates screen blur in motion scenes.
-TrueView™ Pro - a more transparent image thanks to three-dimensional noise reduction
-PerfectView Pro - fifth generation LSI Logic compression technology that provides excellent video quality

[lordsmurf]

I don't think the purpose of this thread is to compare crappy mpeg2 encodes, poor deinterlacers, oversharpend pictures with halos etc.

Yes, but:
a) deinterlacers are not very important for VHS material. I compared several and the effect is imperceptible with a noisy VHS;

No.

Only if you're viewing everything in a tiny preview window on a small screen. View it large, full size HDTV, and differences are obvious, even to a half blind grandma. Anybody that doesn't see it simply doesn't want to see it.

[Alwyn]

Yes, but:
a) deinterlacers are not very important for VHS material. I compared several and the effect is imperceptible with a noisy VHS;

No.

Only if you're viewing everything in a tiny preview window on a small screen. View it large, full size HDTV, and differences are obvious, even to a half blind grandma. Anybody that doesn't see it simply doesn't want to see it.

Interesting! Are you suggesting that deinterlacing is now important in all cases? Previous posts of yours have inferred only do it if you have to eg Youtube.

[Sharc]

Yes, but:
a) deinterlacers are not very important for VHS material. I compared several and the effect is imperceptible with a noisy VHS;

No.

Only if you're viewing everything in a tiny preview window on a small screen. View it large, full size HDTV, and differences are obvious, even to a half blind grandma. Anybody that doesn't see it simply doesn't want to see it.

Interesting! Are you suggesting that deinterlacing is now important in all cases? Previous posts of yours have inferred only do it if you have to eg Youtube.

No. He only says that IF deinterlacing will be used, the quality of the deinterlacer matters.
(Deinterlacing on the fly during capturing should be avoided like the plague anyway).