24p Capture Question

[scottrwn98]

First of all, how does 24p camera's capture the frames on a Digital Video Tape? Is it just like a film to video transfer where every 5th frame is a copy of the 4th frame?

If you were to video tape on a 24p camera and place the Digital Video tape in (lets say a Canon GL1) would it play back the same? If it does play back, could Premiere 6.5 capture it as regular DV or do I need a specific program to capture 24p? (ie. a newer version of Premiere or another editing software package)

Thanks,

[SLK001]

24p? Do you mean 24fps progressive?

If you can capture progressive frames at 24 fps, then that is the cat's meow, the holy grail, or what ever other cliché you want to put on something that is a really good thing. Once captured, you can do anything to your video - convert to NTSC or convert to PAL.

Is it just like a film to video transfer where every 5th frame is a copy of the 4th frame?

By the way, this is not how film to NTSC is done.

[Shannafey]

Scott,
I couldn't tell you how it captures to Mini DV. I'd love to know myself, but as far as playing in another camera, I doubt it, unless it does 24p as well. As far as capturing, your software needs to be compatible, and presently Final Cut Pro on the MAC is the only program that comes to mind, though AVID Express DV is supposed to have that feature in the future. Of course, we are talking about $1500 software here!!

[scottrwn98]

As for the film transfer, that's not what I meant ... we have had our film projects converted to BETA SP and then to DV and when you slow-mo the tape, every 4th and 5th frame is the same frame (ie. 1 2 3 4 4 5 6 7 8 8 and so on) and when loaded in Premiere, the 4th and 5th frames when paused flicker (interlaced).

I have heard that the newest version of Vegas Video will capture 24p and that Premiere Pro will capture 24p.

So when using the Panisonic 24P camera, it captures frames to DV different so when you take the DV tape into a DV deck, it won't play...is that what you are saying? BEcause that really wouldn't make much sense if I had a DV tape that was taped using 24p and no way to convert it unless I had that camera...explain what you mean.

Thanks all,

[Shannafey]

I Guess the best comparison would be Hi8 or SVHS. They are different formats then 8mm or VHS. If you put a Hi8 tape in a 8mm deck or an SVHS tape in a VHS deck, they wouldn't play, even though they'll load. Get it?

[scottrwn98]

OH .. ok, I get it. That's still kinda crapy ... but I hear the quality looks that of 16mm film. We are going to shoot using a Panasonic 24p camera and wanted to know how, where, and what to edit it on ... I'd like to edit it on my computer but I only have Premiere 6.5


Thanks for all your help ... let me know any other detailed information, I would like to know A LOT more about the 24p and capture process.

Thanks,

[vhelp]

@ scottrwn98,

Here's my belief, only because I did a number of experiments some time
ago.

If you are recarding to your cam's tape. Then, I believe the answer is YES,
you can obtain the SAME fps of 24p in your project.

virtualdub way.. ..

What you do is, capture S-Video 'wise into vdub, but remember to set
vdub to 24. You have to do it manually though, under the Capture/Settings
and change to Frame Rate: [24.000]

You should get 24p frame (24fps FullFrame) as your .avi source, assuming
that you hook up your cam's S-Video to your Capture cards' connectors.

Good luck,
-vhelp

[scottrwn98]

Well, what I was wondering is:

A) If I put a regular Mini-DV tape in the Panasonic 24p camera, can I record footage and then return the camera and slip the Mini-DV tape in my GL1 and capture in Premiere 6.5 as a 27.97 project and it will capture just like getting a film to Mini-DV tape transfer. We have had our film projects transfered to Beta SP and then to DV and captured it as 29.97 with no problem.

B) I want to edit it as Digital Video and I don't know waht cards or software packages are out there that will work.

I need to educate myself on 24p so when we shoot the project, it won't be footage locked in the tape.

Surely there is some way to capture it just like a regular Mini-DV tape in Premiere. It's such a new technology, its confusing to me actually :P

Thanks,

[Cornucopia]

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but you're all WRONG!

DV on tape is DV on tape. It runs at 29.97(NTSC) or 25(PAL)fps. That's it.

How do they do that 24p thing you might ask?
Easy, they do Telecine (3:2 pulldown) in the camera before recording to tape. That way, it still gets recorded as a standard DV signal and WILL PLAY BACK IN ANY DV DECK. But it'll still have the pulldown. Until...

You capture via Firewire--NOT S-Video or Composite. If you capture with a standard program, it'll still be 29.97/25 interlaced. Standard DV-AVI files like everybody has. If you capture with a Telecine-aware (especially Panasonic's advanced 2:3:3:2) program, it will do on-the-fly Inverse Telecine, using flag codes in the DV's Aux data streeam so it won't even have to guess the fields. TaDa! Perfect 24p AVI files (but not standard DV-AVI files at this point). No interlace artifacts. Great MPEG encodes (although there's still the color loss when going from 4:1:1 to 4:2:0).

The new professional DV cameras (and DVCAM and DVCPro cams) that advertise 24p do it this way. There also are the consumer "progressive" cameras that just do something like--go from 60/50i (normal interlaced) to 30/25p--and they do this by delaying the 2nd field to be in sync with a normal 2nd field, even though it was "percieved" at the same instant as the 1st field.

Panasonics new camera can do standard 60i (they call it 30i) or 30p or 24p (2:3:2:3 pulldown) or their "Advanced 24p" (2:3:3:2 pulldown). This last one has more visible judder than the others, but is supposedly easier for an "aware" program to decode/IVTC in realtime.

What stuff is 24p "aware"?
Well, there may be others, but AVID DS/MediaComposer/XpressPro do--but not XpressDV yet, and I'm pretty sure Apple's FCP 4 does and Adobe Premier Pro 7 does. If anyone else knows of others, please inform us... (Vegas users?)

That stuff about Hi-8 and SVHS was totally left field, as well as wrong. A Hi-8 tape will "play" in an 8mm deck, and a SVHS tape can "play" in a VHS deck. It will just have some "signal overload" (for lack of a better consumer term) because the bandwidth is greater and slightly shifted. But you can still "see" an image.
I know, I've done this a number of times in pinch.

HTH,
Scott

[scottrwn98]

Ah ... THANK YOU ... that is what I needed to know. We haven't done much with the camera yet, but wanted to make sure my system was compatible with the camera. I only have Premiere 6.5 now ... so I may have to purchase another program to capture the 24p.

So you are basically saying that I could use the 24p tape in my GL1, I just need a 24p supporting program to capture it properly with .. correct?

I'm very new to this and what you had said, I understand a little.

Thank you soo very much,

[Cornucopia]

I believe that would be an acceptable setup. If you're not sure, Panasonic ought to be able to tell you. (covering my ass )

Good luck,

Scott