Tapeless analog capture advice request

[Azhash]

Hello,

I've been looking at analog tapeless options available and have a question, wich of these options is superior? Any other options that's not some insane ccd sensor hack to propose? My budget is around 100-150 for the whole setup.

-Mini DVR: Cheap but seems not fitting for analog, apparently they capture only half the lines with interlaced video so meh, and audio is garbage

-UNISHEEN UR230A and all it's clones: Same apparently, its probably "ok" for digital to digital but not for analog to digital, and its quite expensive really for what it is (im seeing it between 70 and 110€).

-Blackmagic and other professional devices: Too expensive for me i think

-Raspberry Pi 3B(wich i already have for another project): seems i can cook up something, but i might have to upgrade to a pi 4B to have PCI and a NVMe drive (to write the video files and not go through usb or sd card wich use same bandwidth).
Basically i got a Hauppauge WIN TV USB-Live2 (composite and S/Video input and works in linux and most likely on a Pi) usb dongle for about 45€, and the Pi3B was 25€, still cheaper than a unisheen,but i do need to get buttons, maybe a screen and a battery.
The pi would run software to capture the video in USB from the dongle, no deinterlacing on the fly (a 4B with good RAM could deinterlace on the fly i think?), just writing with probably some compression if Pi 3B and could be lossless with Pi 4B (matter of traffic in the USB ports and cpu load, the Pi 3B is a little short for capturing as best as possible). Then deinterlace later on on PC or in the Pi.
I know it sound complicated, but, firstly its fun and interesting, secondly i can setup things how i want and its probably still a bit cheaper than a professional setup already built? i'd say 130 150€ total maybe if i manage to get good prices.
Could also plug it in at home on my other Hauppage capture device that has component input, so it double as a home capture device

I am getting some camcorder as of now and planning on getting one camcorder for the most common vintage formats.
Let me know if there is options i havnt seen yet and thank you for reading!

[VWestlife]

Capturing from what? Tape, or live video? NTSC, or PAL?

[Azhash]

Capturing from what? Tape, or live video? NTSC, or PAL?

Live video from PAL Camcorders (composite, S/video, Component) for the main use, and as a second usage from tapes (i know the better option would be to record on tape, then use a TBC passthrough dvd recorder in terms of quality, just wondering what i could do as for tapeless, also for example if i can find a cool one on a flea market for 5€ with broken tape deck i could still make use of it)

[Eric-jan]

Capturing from what? Tape, or live video? NTSC, or PAL?

Live video from PAL Camcorders (composite, S/video, Component) for the main use, and as a second usage from tapes (i know the better option would be to record on tape, then use a TBC passthrough dvd recorder in terms of quality, just wondering what i could do as for tapeless, also for example if i can find a cool one on a flea market for 5€ with broken tape deck i could still make use of it)

That would be a broken combo recorder, but a dvd recorder from the thrift shop is a better option to get from a thriftshop as a passthrough device, if you only can go cheap.
although some prosumer cards are not that expensive.
consumer usb dongles are most of the time trash.

[Azhash]

That would be a broken combo recorder, but a dvd recorder from the thrift shop is a better option to get from a thriftshop as a passthrough device, if you only can go cheap.
although some prosumer cards are not that expensive.
consumer usb dongles are most of the time trash.

Yeah i get that, indeed a half broken camcorder wont let me capture tapes. I have vhs decks, and for mini DV or Hi8 i'll have to get a working camcorder.

Dvd recorder were thrift store picks before, i remember that, but now, it's actually the same prices as on ebay, any basic good one is 150€ or more. I'll get one when i get one.

Prosumer cards are cool but they usually are not portable for a tapeless setup, i saw some but they usually dont connect right for a Pi, blackmagic has one but it uses thunderbolt (no port on Pi and no support on linux). If you have one in mind let me know i'm interested to look into it. Also they most likely require power, wich means more tinkering with batteries and stuff, dongles just power through the usb port wich is convenient.

[aramkolt]

DV isn't really too bad for PAL live video - Main downside is that it is 4:2:0 chroma subsampling (and that you need to get a firewire input card most likely), so that means it ignores color on every other horizontal line to save space. DVD recorders and MPEG2 recorders will do the same thing though. It'll also produce interlaced files which you can probably squeeze some more quality out of later when you go to deinterlace later. Depending on your delivery format, it's possible that you'd actually want the files to be interlaced the entire time though.

While I don't usually recommend using modern standalone capture devices, it seems like the Cloner Alliance products are decent as far as new hardware goes. The main downside of those being that the "better" models (cloner alliance box pro) don't have an S-Video input option, they can kind of zoom/crop the image a bit, and they do live deinterlacing (which may or may not be preferable in your use case). I'm sure there are lots of videos showing what tapeless builds can do with those sorts of products, so guessing you've already considered those.

Other considerations are:
-What file size you are willing to have the initial capture files be per hour?
-Do you want to capture in the native interlaced, or do you want your capture device to do the deinterlacing
-What's the final destination of the video, or how do you plan to distribute it?

[lollo]

Basically i got a Hauppauge WIN TV USB-Live2 (composite and S/Video input and works in linux

USB-Live 2 is absolutely fine for capturing a Y/C signal tapeless. Capture YUY2 4:2:2 lossless interlaced. For whatever reason you prefer a smaller file, use its own software to capture MPEG2 interlaced at high bitrate.

A comparison between the 2 results here (tape content):
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/401818-Best-VHS-device-capture-and-software-for-Wi...10#post2619614

[Azhash]

Okay thanks, from what i gathered it was a good dongle for its price.

For whatever reason you prefer a smaller file, use its own software to capture MPEG2 interlaced at high bitrate.

When u say i prefer smaller files u mean that it works better when its captured and encoded rather than captured lossless?
On the Pi/Linux, i've read that u dont need the software, i'll test that soon. That would be great because the windows Hauppage software i tried on my Hauppage HD DVR is quite basic and limited.

While I don't usually recommend using modern standalone capture devices, it seems like the Cloner Alliance products are decent as far as new hardware goes.

I looked it up, they have the same rebranded product as the Unisheen, but 230€, and after some research, it also halves the frames like the Unisheen.
The Cloner alliance pro seems better, but it needs power, its big, cost also 230 by itself and yeah the absence of S/video is unfortunate. And i dont need the HDMI ports. Not very "portable" tbh.

And you'r right, lots of videos that show tapeless setups, the ones i saw usually do it wrong tho, using a mini DVR or a unisheen type of device (some do it right but its often expensive gear). I am no pro but reading this forum posts made me understand the basics of an inferior and a better setup.

Other considerations are:
-What file size you are willing to have the initial capture files be per hour?
-Do you want to capture in the native interlaced, or do you want your capture device to do the deinterlacing
-What's the final destination of the video, or how do you plan to distribute it?

-30Gb an hour if Pi3 i think, can be more with bigger sd card or ssd, and can go much higher if i get a Pi4 for that project (nvme ssd)
-If its a Pi3, i dont have a choice its gotta be interlaced, with a pi4 it could deinterlace on the fly but really thats heavy on the CPU, so its not really a matter of what i want but more about what's possible here. I can always later on deinterlace on the Pi or export on my pc and deinterlace there.
-I'm not a pro, it's for both personal use and artistic projects. So Youtube, mp4/mkv files, nothing much more fancy than that.(that's why i try to keep the budget as low as possible and the quality of capture as high as possible in that constraint)

[lollo]

When u say i prefer smaller files u mean that it works better when its captured and encoded rather than captured lossless?

No, it saves you same area at the expense of quality.

On the Pi/Linux, i've read that u dont need the software, i'll test that soon. That would be great because the windows Hauppage software i tried on my Hauppage HD DVR is quite basic and limited.

Great, let us know. The software I mentioned is "Hauppauge Capture" and, while basic, it allows a proper MPEG2 capture, which is all that is needed in that context.

[aramkolt]

Ah. I missed the part about it needing to be portable, but that does make sense if you want a tapeless camcorder build that would be portable though. But maybe not if it's more of an analog look for say YouTube videos filmed interview style.

This particular one does probably have similar performance as the CABP, but does have S-Video input at 60FPS (and is more mobile, utilizing camera batteries):
https://www.amazon.com/Portta-VD20P-Converter-Compatible-Camcorder/dp/B0G2BN624Q/

It won't capture interlaced though and will have the same zoom/crop issue as shown here - you can kind of see the slight zoom/crop at around 14:39: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ei0vvDkcbyk

If you do want/need the captures to be interlaced, then you're not really going to find any modern capture boxes that'll do that outside of a few field recorders that will accept interlaced signals over SDI which would require another box in the chain for that conversion, also requiring power of course.

I'm sure you do have a good use case in mind or perhaps just really like a certain camcorder model for the other features or general "look" it produces, so mainly just curious on the motivations for this specific project. 30GB an hour was also more than I was expecting to hear, you're definitely in the "lossless" range or at least visually lossless at those sizes.

You could use one something like this plus an analog to SDI converter:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/366351816236

This is the smallest S-Video to SDI converter I'm aware of:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/397387863606

The AJA converter there requires 5V, you can just directly wire power inside of it and not worry about that propriety plug. Both those together kind of fit the budget as well - outside of getting an SSD which seem to be pretty insanely priced these days, perhaps you have an extra laying around?

That particular combo above (if you could power it), would probably beat 95% of all tapeless builds out there quality wise, but again, not sure if power requirements kill that idea or what the size of those items looks like compared the camera you are using it with. The Ninja Blade there does accept analog audio over a 3.5mm jack and even has an audio delay setting, so you can make sure there's no audio sync issues as there's probably some slight delay added by the analog to SDI converter.

Lossless capture with your Hauppauge does sound more compact and easy to power though, just sounds a lot more complex on the configuration/hardware side. I just hadn't really heard of anyone using a Pi to capture video with an external USB capture card like that. Do you have any links to videos you could share about others that have done something similar?

[Azhash]

This particular one does probably have similar performance as the CABP, but does have S-Video input at 60FPS (and is more mobile, utilizing camera batteries):
https://www.amazon.com/Portta-VD20P-Converter-Compatible-Camcorder/dp/B0G2BN624Q/

Thanks, didnt know these ones, they seem pretty alright, i tried finding a VD20 (the one with s/video) but sadly cant find one here, and the US import would make the price climb from 150 to 200 not including import tax wich i bet is another 50 or something. I could find a VD22 for 100 here, but, its just hdmi and composite, arf, otherwise i might have just grabbed it if it was a VD20. I'll keep my eye out for one just in case.

You could use one something like this plus an analog to SDI converter:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/366351816236

This is the smallest S-Video to SDI converter I'm aware of:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/397387863606

I spent some time understanding the SDI workflow, it seems quite interesting. But i think that if it comes to using the Pi USB, i'd rather use the Hauppage Live, its gonna be way more convenient and simpler, especially the powering/battery part of it.
And the price probably will climb easily if i find parts that are not "for parts" in the description.
Does the Atomos Samurai Blade write directly to a ssd via usb?

Lossless capture with your Hauppauge does sound more compact and easy to power though, just sounds a lot more complex on the configuration/hardware side. I just hadn't really heard of anyone using a Pi to capture video with an external USB capture card like that. Do you have any links to videos you could share about others that have done something similar?

Its not simple, but nowadays the pi is very documented and it should be manageable with some sweat i think. There is already people who did this yeah, they documented the process and drivers to use etc directly in the pi. Im trusting it so far but its not like i yet saw it work on a youtube video or somehting.

I have a related example on hand tho, he's capturing miniDV via firewire with the Pi: https://youtu.be/BuKeW45OL-g?t=150
edit: Found another one with pretty much the setup i'm trying to have (minus the portable part): https://youtu.be/NfOgoX7wx5I?t=82

[VWestlife]

Getting a camcorder that is tapeless to begin with will be cheaper, higher-quality, more portable, and less expensive than any method of attaching a digital recording device to a tape camcorder.
Tapeless Camcorder Buyer's Guide

Some Sony and JVC models can also serve double-duty as a video capture device, as they allow you to use the A/V jack as an input for recording as well as an output for playback.