viewing Vhs ... hdmi output better?

[Tom81]

I am plugging my vhs player into an Epson video projector with composite output to composite input on the Epson (the projector model does not have svhs input but does have hdmi input). If I get a dvd/vhs combo unit with an hdmi output and use that to input into the Epson will I get a noticeably, better picture projected from VHS tape?

[davexnet]

I don't think there is a clear cut answer. Will the combo unit be doing any noise reduction and/or picture stabilization? Upscale?

[GAhere]

Short answer.. NO.

SD video, is SD video quality no matter how much you process and reprocess.

In fact doing so potentially could have the opposite effect of what you are trying to accomplish as you are adding a lot of uneeded signal processing into the chain.

Longer answer..

The video inputs like composite, S-Video, Component are already "scaled up" in your viewing device. A "scaler" should already be built in to the TV or in your case projector if it has lower resolution inputs. A scaler takes lower resolutions and converts them to a more usable format which matches the viewing devices "native" resolution.

It is however possible that the built in scaler may not be as good as it should or could be. For those cases then what you want is a standalone EXTERNAL scaler which may or may not be superior to the built in scaler. A standalone scaler will not have additional extra processing that may degrade the picture further or introduce unwanted artifacts or delay the video (delayed video means the video will lag the audio causing a noticeable sync problem when folks are talking)..

Up Scalers (SD to HDMI) work by adding duplicate lines into the digital stream, they do not add more detail by doing so so they are not miracle workers.

In your case, you could by a composite to HDMI scaler and see if you get an improvement, they often will give you several settings like 720 and 1080.. But be warned, don't expect the SD video from a VHS tape to look as good as a video source that started life as 720 or 1080..

VHS is a pretty poor example of SD quality video to start with, Beta, 8mm tape, Hi8mm tape and DVD were far superior in SD video quality and if the VHS was recorded in SLP (6hr mode) it is almost not worth messing with unless you are trying to play "home movies" you recorded of your family on a camcorder..

If it is commercially available movie releases on VHS, you are better off buying DVD versions which are far superior to VHS in every aspect for video and sound quality. Granted, not every movie released on VHS have been rereleased on DVD, but most have been.

Back to home movies, you might consider the idea of doing a video capture to digital format, then you can try out making enhancements/alterations via editing software. This also gives you the chance to also upscale by saving the video in a higher resolution format. But be aware, sometimes trying to enhance details to be sharper with VHS will often create other noticeable defects, it becomes a game of trade offs..

But no matter what you do, you cannot put more detail or info into VHS recordings if that is what you are wanting to do..

[rgr]

I am plugging my vhs player into an Epson video projector with composite output to composite input on the Epson (the projector model does not have svhs input but does have hdmi input). If I get a dvd/vhs combo unit with an hdmi output and use that to input into the Epson will I get a noticeably, better picture projected from VHS tape?

It depends on which has better image processing (image correction, upscaling, denoising).
Ideally, the DVD recorder should be based on a JVC chip (this rules out Panasonic, but I think Pioneers had such a chip).
Plus, you won't gain much (really little) by converting the analog to digital path.

[GAhere]

I am plugging my vhs player into an Epson video projector with composite output to composite input on the Epson (the projector model does not have svhs input but does have hdmi input). If I get a dvd/vhs combo unit with an hdmi output and use that to input into the Epson will I get a noticeably, better picture projected from VHS tape?

It depends on which has better image processing (image correction, upscaling, denoising).
Ideally, the DVD recorder should be based on a JVC chip (this rules out Panasonic, but I think Pioneers had such a chip).
Plus, you won't gain much (really little) by converting the analog to digital path.

Dollars to doughnuts, finding a used working DVD recorder that you would not have to repair will be a fare more expensive proposition than if you just bought a Composite to HDMI scaler.. Not to mention a fair chance that the cheap standalone scaler will be far better than what was available back when DVD recorders were manufactured..

You can get a Composite to HDMI scaler for as low as $11 on Amazon..

https://www.amazon.com/Converter-Adapter-1080P-Composite-Support/dp/B0C7N7CZ5Y/ref=sr_...NIkLhCpl8&th=1

Some scalers have additional capabilities of multiple output resolutions like this one..

https://www.amazon.com/YITROX-Svideo-Converter-Upscaler-Support/dp/B0BJVXHY8D/ref=sr_1...=qLHvNIkLhCpl8

Or this one that allows you to adjust color/brightness/contrast/hue/saturation plus standard 4_3 or widescreen 16-9

https://www.amazon.com/ClearClick-AV-HDMI-3-0-Generation/dp/B0GK2S2QWX/ref=sr_1_26?cri...=qLHvNIkLhCpl8


[Attachment 92136 - Click to enlarge]

Using a DVD recorder as a means to upscale is an obsolete method of achieving composite to HDMI scaling..

If you have a DVD recorder on hand, try it.

If you do not have a DVD recorder, don't buy one just for this issue.. Instead buy a stand alone video scaler.

Something else to consider, if the projector has a zoom or overscan setting like stretch, stretch to fit, do not use that setting, you want NORMAL. Stretching means the scaler will attempt to fill the 16-9 widescreen of the projector with a 4-3 aspect source as such it magnifies the video which will not only clip the top and bottom of the video but amplify ALL of the noise inherent to VHS making a OK picture look absolutely horrible and unwatchable..

Yes, no stretch means you are not using all of the widescreen and yes that means you will have black sides but it will be much better looking.

[VWestlife]

Don't overthink it. If the projector has a composite input, use it. End of story!

[GAhere]

Don't overthink it. If the projector has a composite input, use it. End of story!

I would have to agree with this.

However, there can be some advantages of using an external scaler in order to use HDMI inputs.

For example, I have a 50" TV which has composite, component and HDMI inputs but I do have several SD composite video devices I like to use. The TV has very limited settings options on the analog composite jacks, and the HDMI inputs have far greater adjust ability which allows me to fine tune the video source to look the best I can get it. So, for the SD composite items I have, I opted for the external composite to HDMI scaler. Just for the additional adjustability it was worth spending $40 in my case..

This may or may not be the case for everyone so your mileage may vary..

[rgr]

I have no problem finding such DVD recorders, and I buy them from time to time (I'm currently getting a DMR EH-775 for 50 euros). Chinese converters for $10 without TBC-like functionality? Better not.

[GAhere]

I have no problem finding such DVD recorders, and I buy them from time to time (I'm currently getting a DMR EH-775 for 50 euros). Chinese converters for $10 without TBC-like functionality? Better not.

TVs, projectors have zero "need" for TBC so no "need" for a DVD recorder to mundge up the video chain more.

Not to mention, the TBCs in the likes of some DVD recorders were garbage and in reality not real TBC. I know TBCs have been tossed around on this and other forums as the "savior" of everything video, that view is rather skewed.

The reality is CONSUMER TBCs are not real TBCs.

To get a 100% real TBC, you must dive into COMMERCIAL units which were made for the commercial broadcasters.

To fully understand and appreciate TBCs and functions you have to go into a lot of electronics and TV theory.

In a nutshell commercial TBCs fully strip out the horizontal and vertical sync signals, only using the original sync signals to establish the base timing. Then it recreates brand new sync signals which are rock steady using a highly stable master oscillator to broadcast engineering specifications. The new sync pulses are then added back into the video. The result will be a clean, stable video waveform that conforms to standardized levels.

TBCs in consumer equipment are far less accurate and far less stable and would never have been used for commercial broadcasting and the output is an approximate to standardized levels.

Commercial TBCs also have one additional thing called "genlock", genlock is basically an input to the TBC which allowed one to use a "master clock" signal to all of the equipment. This allowed one to use multiple video sources while switching between sources and yet maintain full lock between sources (glitch free editing).

DVD recorders have no such capability as gen lock (IE use an external precision master clock).

Here is an example of a commercial quality TBC..

https://www.bsbroadcast.com/snell-wilcox-tbs180-advanced-time-base-corrector.html

"The Snell & Wilcox TBS180 provides multi-standard Y/C, Composite and SDI timebase correction and synchronization. The Composite input automatically detects PAL, NTSC, NTSC-J, PAL-N, PAL-M, N4.43 and SECAM, and is sampled and decoded using an adaptive comb filter to ensure optimum decoding performance. The signal correction features include luminance and chrominance gain, black level, NTSC hue, vertical and horizontal enhancers, RGB gamut legalizer, YC horizontal timing and picture position.

Rugged sync and clock recovery ensures reliable operation with unstable and noisy inputs. In addition a powerful frame recursive noise reducer automatically eliminates much background noise providing much improved performance over adaptive technology. A sophisticated motion detector seamlessly switches off the noise reduction in moving picture areas. The broadcast quality 12-bit output encoder is fully genlockable to a composite reference and supports PAL, NTSC, NTSC-J, PAL-N, PAL-M, N4.43 and SECAM. The TBS180 will also operate as a transcoder between any of the available standards of the same line rate. Serial digital component outputs are available simultaneously on the Snell & Wilcox TBS180."


Absolutely no consumer "TBC" can stack up to a real commercial TBC.

But, that is not the issue the OP is asking about, the issue is can they obtain a much better looking picture on their projector by converting the analog composite VHS to a digital HDMI and using the HDMI input on the projector.

The answer is not clear, it depends highly on how good of a SCALER the projector has built into the composite port and if an external scaler may be better.

Has nothing to do with a DVD recorder having a TBC or not, but more about the quality of the SCALER the DVD recorder may have which is what is used on the DVD recorders which featured a HDMI output.

And for the record not ALL DVD recorders featured HDMI outputs, most will have composite at a minimum or had composite and component.. I have one that features composite and component but no HDMI as it was built and sold way before HDMI ever was available.

I personally would rather spend $40 for a brand new scaler than $10 on a used DVD recorder which will have old caps ready to fail if not failed. Not to mention, scalers are tiny little "black boxes" that can be velcroed to the projector/TV/video player and you don't have to keep or lug around a large DVD recorder on top of the VHS deck.

[aramkolt]

I think I posted on your other thread, but you might look to those who do live viewing of laserdiscs and are trying to squeeze out the best picture on modern TVs. Laserdiscs are natively composite. However, there's more to be gained from laserdisc as the horizontal effective resolution is a lot higher. You are more likely to run into typical composite issues (dot crawl, rainbowing) with higher resolution sources as the patterns on screen can be "finer" and alternating brightness patterns can be confused for color information instead.

With composite, much of the result comes down to how good the comb filter is in the device that is internally separating the chroma and luma. There can be a lot of variation there. However, if you aren't seeing dot crawl or rainbowing on fine repeating patterns that bothers you, then the projector is already solving some of the bigger visual issues that inferior comb filters can have. From there, all you really have to gain from fancier scalers and S-Video use would be a possibly sharper image. Sharper often means more chroma noise and "grain" which can trick the eyes into thinking the image is higher resolution. I kind of like that sort of grain myself, but it's often down to preference.

On a minimal budget and for convenience, you might find it reasonable to try a cheap composite to HDMI scaler as they are indeed under $15 and you might prefer the picture from it. Since they aren't all made by the same manufacturer and likely have had several revisions over the years, you won't really know if you're getting one of the better or poorer ones though. The few demos I've seen of these often appear kind of plastic-y and oversmoothened.

As far as DVD recorder scalers (advantage here is that they can accept S-Video and might possibly deinterlace and scale better than the projector), the one I dabbled with is what 12VoltVids showed on his capture setup which I visually determined the model to be a Toshiba DR430. I bought two parts units and got both working well with what I'd say was a moderate degree of recapping required. The idea was to compare several popular Youtubers' recommended capture chains against each other on the same source. What is kind of unique about this player is that it has LED indicators on the front that tell you what the input is being scaled to and it would apply any appropriate audio delays during passthrough as well. I believe it can scale to 480p, 720p, 1080p and 1080i.

Quite a few laserdisc users do say they like the picture through an upscaling DVD player better than modern composite only input devices (mainly for the more advanced comb filtering). Since you'd be using S-Video, you should get even better results than the "best" DVD player comb filter as there is no "perfect" comb filter. VHS being relatively low effective won't likely have quite as much to gain than laserdisc though. Just some quick googling says laserdisc has about 425 lines of horizontal resolution whereas regular VHS might only have 240. This means that if you take a width of the display that is equal to the height of the screen (so in a square viewing window), you can distinguish that many alternating equal width vertical lines from each other without them blending or bleeding together.

If you know anyone else with a projector that does have S-Video input, maybe bring your VHS player there to see if you really can even tell a significant difference with S-Video via projector before second guessing how good composite looks on yours.

Another test you might do is take a short clip of something captured from VHS to a DVD recorder (onto disc) via S-Video and then play that on a DVD player via HDMI out into your projector and compare it to the composite output from the same DVD player into your projector. If you can't really tell a difference, I'd say stick with composite that it has. Starting with a VHS source is important here because you'll want the original source to have been the 240lines of horizontal resolution. I could make you a short burnable ISO of a DVD recorded that way and post if you're interested, you'd just need a DVD burner for the test and then the a DVD player that has both HDMI out and composite out.

[rgr]

I have no problem finding such DVD recorders, and I buy them from time to time (I'm currently getting a DMR EH-775 for 50 euros). Chinese converters for $10 without TBC-like functionality? Better not.

TVs, projectors have zero "need" for TBC so no "need" for a DVD recorder to mundge up the video chain more.

??? It's nonsense. So why was TBC created if it is "not needed"?

Not to mention, the TBCs in the likes of some DVD recorders were garbage and in reality not real TBC. I know TBCs have been tossed around on this and other forums as the "savior" of everything video, that view is rather skewed.

??? After all, this is also nonsense, as has already been confirmed many times in the tests that are available on this forum. TBC in DVD burners is quite effective.

In a nutshell commercial TBCs fully strip out the horizontal and vertical sync signals, only using the original sync signals to establish the base timing. Then it recreates brand new sync signals which are rock steady using a highly stable master oscillator to broadcast engineering specifications. The new sync pulses are then added back into the video. The result will be a clean, stable video waveform that conforms to standardized levels.

And that's how DVD Recorders work - they digitize the analog signal and then replay it from the digital form.

TBCs in consumer equipment are far less accurate and far less stable and would never have been used for commercial broadcasting and the output is an approximate to standardized levels.

This is obvious, but for home needs, the algorithms available in DVD burners are sufficient. It's like playing a VHS tape - you can have great equipment for $500, and you can have very good equipment for $50.

Commercial TBCs also have one additional thing called "genlock", genlock is basically an input to the TBC which allowed one to use a "master clock" signal to all of the equipment. This allowed one to use multiple video sources while switching between sources and yet maintain full lock between sources (glitch free editing). DVD recorders have no such capability as gen lock (IE use an external precision master clock).

I'm glad. But do we need this for our home VCR?

And for the record not ALL DVD recorders featured HDMI outputs, most will have composite at a minimum or had composite and component.. I have one that features composite and component but no HDMI as it was built and sold way before HDMI ever was available.

Is there anything simpler than checking if a device has HDMI?

I personally would rather spend $40 for a brand new scaler

Which scaler has TBC-like features like DVD burners?

Edit: Do you even have a VCR?

[GAhere]

I have no problem finding such DVD recorders, and I buy them from time to time (I'm currently getting a DMR EH-775 for 50 euros). Chinese converters for $10 without TBC-like functionality? Better not.

TVs, projectors have zero "need" for TBC so no "need" for a DVD recorder to mundge up the video chain more.

??? It's nonsense. So why was TBC created if it is "not needed"?

Not to mention, the TBCs in the likes of some DVD recorders were garbage and in reality not real TBC. I know TBCs have been tossed around on this and other forums as the "savior" of everything video, that view is rather skewed.

??? After all, this is also nonsense, as has already been confirmed many times in the tests that are available on this forum. TBC in DVD burners is quite effective.

In a nutshell commercial TBCs fully strip out the horizontal and vertical sync signals, only using the original sync signals to establish the base timing. Then it recreates brand new sync signals which are rock steady using a highly stable master oscillator to broadcast engineering specifications. The new sync pulses are then added back into the video. The result will be a clean, stable video waveform that conforms to standardized levels.

And that's how DVD Recorders work - they digitize the analog signal and then replay it from the digital form.

TBCs in consumer equipment are far less accurate and far less stable and would never have been used for commercial broadcasting and the output is an approximate to standardized levels.

This is obvious, but for home needs, the algorithms available in DVD burners are sufficient. It's like playing a VHS tape - you can have great equipment for $500, and you can have very good equipment for $50.

Commercial TBCs also have one additional thing called "genlock", genlock is basically an input to the TBC which allowed one to use a "master clock" signal to all of the equipment. This allowed one to use multiple video sources while switching between sources and yet maintain full lock between sources (glitch free editing). DVD recorders have no such capability as gen lock (IE use an external precision master clock).

I'm glad. But do we need this for our home VCR?

And for the record not ALL DVD recorders featured HDMI outputs, most will have composite at a minimum or had composite and component.. I have one that features composite and component but no HDMI as it was built and sold way before HDMI ever was available.

Is there anything simpler than checking if a device has HDMI?

I personally would rather spend $40 for a brand new scaler

Which scaler has TBC-like features like DVD burners?

Edit: Do you even have a VCR?

It is obvious that you have never worked in the TV broadcast industry nor have had any electronics training nor have worked in the TV/audio or other electronics sectors.

Yes, I do, not only 1 VHS, but 4 VHS units, plus 3 Hi8mm tape decks, plus 1 Hi8mm tape camcorder, plus 1 HD digital Camcorder that records to SD cards, plus 1 DVD recorder. In addition have three standalone recorders, one is a Sandisk recorder which records video to SD card, and two Argosy HV359T recorder/players that record digitally to internal HDs, plus a bunch of DVD players. All in working order by the way. Multiple TVs starting with some 1970s era Philco and Zenith that I have repaired and still have plus many more modern LCD TVs.. In the past have owned a early color 1/2" Reel to reel portable VTR, multiple Beta machines.

First job out of Tech school was working with Broadcast quality video editing equipment, company had in the main editing suite 3 nice Sony 1" Reel to reel editing decks, two 3/4" uMatic decks, 1 Panasonic Industrial VHS, 1 Beta machine, each 1" inch deck had it's own TBC by the way. That suite also had a full editing studio, Grass Valley switcher ect. Second suite had 3/4 uMatic editing machines and a lot less equipment.. They also had a studio for in house video shoots, plus had multiple 1" and 3/4 portable VTRs and assortment of broadcast cameras and mics to round things out. I was one of two Techs that had to oversee all maintenance and repairs of all the equipment.. Even got to do camera tube alignments using standardized charts. Everything HAD to be to broadcast specs as any or all of the equipment could be used for commercial broadcasts. Was pretty cool as a young adult to get to play with multi-million dollars worth of equipment..

Also spent nearly 5 yrs working in TV/VCR/stereo/sat (C band big dish) repair shops in my early career days moving into computer repair in industrial equipment in my later yrs.

I also have received multiple warranty repair certifications from IBM, Okidata, HP and other computer peripherals over the yrs and lots of Windows training, not to mention a degree in electronics.

I won't bore you with all the audio and computer equipment I have or have worked on and repaired..

So, what is your specialty and work record?

What is your "qualifications" other than a keyboard jock?

Oh and by the way, analog VHS eventually had three recording speeds, 2hr SP (standard play), 4hr LP (Long Play) and 6hr SLP (Super Long Play). LP and SLP was achieved by slowing the tape speed which resulted in a lower quality picture all commercially recorded store bought VHS releases where done using SP for the best picture. LP never really caught on and most recorders eventually removed the option to record at LP only offering SP and SLP recording options. Better VHS machines offered 4 head video drums, 4 head drums allowed for a specialized dedicated head for SLP which resulted in better 6hr video over 4hr LP video.