what is the Beta equivalent to a panasonic AG 1980?

[jdwk]

of course I do not mean BETACAM, I mean, what is the Best Beta machine to use to digitize regular old Beta video tapes? Something like what the AG 1980 is for VHS? thanks!

[aramkolt]

Performance shouldn't be too different once you are into the Sony's Super Beta HiFi machines. I believe that's any model number SL-HF400 or higher. The fancier machines tended to have more editing features and there were a couple that could record Beta 1(s) which gave higher video bandwidth and tape speed in exchange for reduced recording time. Since most people aren't making new Beta recordings, playback ability is what most are looking for, so most of the fancy features don't mean much now. That being said, a low hours SL-HF400 probably almost certainly produce a superior picture to a high hours "flagship" model.

The "Flagship" models in the USA were the SL-HF1000/2000. The 2000 has a more modern/compact design and auto tracking, but I don't think they are known to be particularly reliable compared to something like the SL-HF900/1000. Main difference between the 900 and 1000 is that the 1000 can do 1s speed recording and playback which you are very unlikely to run into out in the wild along with maybe the lack of some editing features. If I've read things correctly, the HF900 has a "detail" switch which might make the picture look better or worse that no other betamax machine had.

There were also EDV beta machines that had S-Video output which theoretically would be superior to composite output, though I haven't really seen head to head comparisons. EDV beta was bigger in Japan meaning that if you go acquire one, it's likely meant to run on 100VAC instead of 120VAC, so you'll require extra transformers or chance burning out the power supply. I'm still pretty sure any of the modern Betamax machines can be modified to have essentially S-Video output by just tapping luma and chroma before they are mixed into composite with some basic op amp circuits. I've done it with Umatic which I think does look better than composite, so I don't think it would be hard to do with beta, especially since chroma and luma are often processed on completely different boards making it likely that the tap points would be pretty obvious with an oscilloscope probing around.

You'll still need to bring your own TBC though since none of the beta machines had them. Ideally it'd be one with line and frame characteristics.

Best bang for the buck would probably be the SL-HF900, though I don't think you can say it's the "best" ever made.

[aramkolt]

Here's a couple of samples I captured from my SL-HF900. It's an 8Mbit/s MPEG2 capture through a Toshiba XS35 HDD recorder that I was also testing out after a SATA SSD mod. These technically do have TBCs in them, but the line TBC could be a little stronger as you can see some slight bending towards the top. Vob files are still interlaced, MP4 files were just a basic Yadif2x handbrake deinterlace. The noise at the bottom is expected to be there and is head switching noise.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/zafoac18yf1fae7qmwewm/AG9PxVtNMddEU8EsruW_PSA?rlkey=6pm...6upqmcide&dl=0

If you're interested in the machine, PM me. I have just recently refurbished it. Only reason I am considering selling is because I have others that work just as well and I really don't need multiple of the same machine.

[lingyi]

I highly recommend visiting mrbetamax.com for lots of info about Beta machines. I believe he's closed down shop for sales. For PAL Beta, visit palsite.com

AFAIK, the only Beta with S-Video are the ED-Beta(s) and SL-HF2100. No PAL or multisystem Beta has S-Video

I've written a number of times about my Betaphile years when I owned 20+ Betamax*, including the SL-HF900, SL-HF2100 (the 15th Anniversary Betamax, the SL-HF2000 was a lower tier model) and EDV-7500 x2. I also owned a SL-HF860, which a poster at DigitalFAQ states has the best quality picture. I also had an SL-5800 (the start of my Betamax love) and SL-2700, the first Beta Hi-Fi.

*Thank you OP for asking for Beta. Only Sony machines and Sony branded cassettes are Betamax. The format is Beta.

Sadly I gave up all my machines in 2017, by which time most of them were dead or dying.

IMO, for picture quality, I rank the EDV-7500 as the best, partially because it had S-Video out, then the SL-HF900 (with no S-Video out), then the SL-HF2100. The EDV-7500's had the sharpest, noisefree image and the SL-HF2100 the softess. My SL-HF860 consistently had a soft, muted image. Though this may be just my machine, which was probably a fairly early production as I got early on because the digital effects. I was pleasantely surpised that my SL-HF650

The highest quality source I had were Laserdiscs with which I did my highest quality comparisons. And I'm just a layman, but I compared everything on a PVM-2530, though uncalibrated and had a TBC-1000 which I used for a distribution amp. I tried different recordings, on everything from ED-Beta to B1s (Super Hi-Band) which I believe was available only on the SL-HF2100. Obviously the ED-Beta recordings were the best, but still noiser than LD.

Magazine reviews of the time stated that the SL-HF900 and EDV-7500 produced higher quality images than the SL-HF1000 and EDV-9500 because they were intended to output to their higher end siblings where the focus was on their editing features.

ED-Beta was much more popular in Japan and there were more models than available in the U.S. EDV-7500/9500 and Canada EDV-7300/9300. I discovered through eBay that Japan had EDV-5000/6000/7000/8000/9000. AFAIK, all EDV models have S-Video in/out. Fortunately this means there are many EDV machines available on eBay for prices beginning below $500, plus shipping from Japan.

Note that the black level on Japanese models (all Beta?) is IRE 0 vs IRE 7.5 for North America, so black levels will be darker.

[lingyi]

SuperBeta Hi-Fi models started with the SL-HF350 which I owned along with the SL-HF550, but neither matched the quality of the SL-HF650 I mentioned above even when new. I may also have had a SL-450, but it doesn't stick in my memory. I generally stuck with mid to higher end models. Notably, I never owned a SL-HF750, the tray loading model because the Sony reps and repair people said it had some issues with the load tray.

A bit of Betamx trivia. I had planned to get the SL-2500, but because I would buy Japanese electronics magazines, I knew about the SL-2700 long before it was introduced to the Western market. When I asked the Sony rep (quietly in the store, while staring at the SL-2500) when the SL-2700 would come out, he said "How do you know that?". Same when I asked about the AG-500 auto changer for the SL-2700!

[dellsam34]

The Japanese models could be a potential source of parts for the US/Canadian models but at this stage they are all failing especially the rotary transformer coils lifting due to dried up glue, Beta did not age well compared to VHS being a decade or two late in production, so they managed to improve the technology a bit better, My 7300 ED Beta model has failed with noise in the picture symptom and I'm hesitant to take the video drum apart and service it, I did recap the power supply board, voltage regulator board and the RF pre-amp board with absolutely no improvement.

There is a guy on eBay selling a 7500 model with the exact problem as you can see in his supplied video in the listing, Not sure he knows it but that's the problem I'm talking about.

[lingyi]

While the last production Betamax* (can't offhand recall the model, but it was midrange) was in 2002, they put every innovation and quality possible into the SL-HF2100 and EDV-9000/9300/9500 which were introduced in 1988 and 1987 in Japan.

While VHS machines were produced by Funai until 2016, these were low grade, low quality units. lordsmurf would be the person to speak to the heyday of VHS machines quality, but I suspect by 2002, the days of truly high quality VCRs was long past.

*No sure how long production of EDV machines continued or if it did past 2002.

Edit: I've DMed lordsmurf and hopefully he's chime in about VHS build/performance quality.

I also remembered there was D-VHS machines that in theory may be better build/performance quality. I really don't know much at all about VHS machines. I owned only three. A mid-range JVC and Panasonic Hi-FI and one low end non-Hi-Fi Pansonic.

[lingyi]

Just remembered. The Beta equvalent of the AG-1980 would be GCS-50. The tunerless version of the SL-HF1000. SuperBeta/Beta Hi-Fi. There's also the SLO-1800, an industrial SuperBeta/Beta Hi-Fi machine designed primarily for playback.

I think there was a tunerless version of the EDV-9000/9300/9500, but I can't find it right now. And there's the EDC-55 which was a ED-Beta camcorder.

Information about about everything, including possibly the tunerless EDV-9000/9300/9500 can be found at mrbetamax.com

Edit: I found the tunerless EDV-9000/9300/9500 at betainfoguide.net. It's the EDW-30F. Meant to be the companion to the EDC-55!

Trivia: I seriously considered getting industrial Betas because I used my machines so heavily for copying prerecorded tapes. Which I why I owned so many of them! I've always been a hoarder!

[timtape]

This is 2025. No new machines available for over 20 years. No factory warranties. Few service technicians. Very few parts available . Machines deteriorate just sitting unused. The condition of the machine today is just as important as the model. Further, did the manufacturers claim that composite recordings played significantly better on the higher definition SVHS or Beta ED decks?

[dellsam34]

Manufacturers built such machines to get better quality recording in the super format, no one was buying such expensive machines because they have S-Video out, Playing back regular tapes over S-Video was irrelevant back then, only a niche videophile group was talking about it, not a big difference to see through a flickery low pixel count CRT TV anyway, this is why Sony did not put S-Video socket on all SuperBeta machines except one model, there is no marketing potential for it. Only now is relevant because of the need to squeeze the best possible quality out of the tapes for archival purposes not for watching the tapes.

[lingyi]

Please don't spread misinfomation.

Playing back regular tapes over S-Video was irrelevant back then, only a niche videophile group was talking about it, not a big difference to see through a flickery low pixel count CRT TV anyway,

I'm sure you know this, but for others. Analog NTSC/PAL have no pixels, it's horizontal and verical lines. Which is why increased horizontal resolution of SuperBeta (280 lines NTSC), SuperBeta HiBand (330 lines NTSC), SuperVHS (400 lines NTSC) and EDBeta (500 lines NTSC) made a visible difference on any CRT. Of which I owned multiple brands and sizes from a 4" Trinitron to my 25" PVM.

And S-Video is to provide a cleaner color signal, which is also noticable on any TV/monitor equiped with it.

this is why Sony did not put S-Video socket on all SuperBeta machines except one model, there is no marketing potential for it.

This may be true. I suspect part of the decision was because it was quickly conflated/associated S-VHS* for the vast majority.

*This of course lead to bastardized mixup of S-VHS and S-Video to this day! My apologies, but even as a former Betaphile, Sony's loss in the format wars, with a IMO superior product still stings! The lack of acceptance, appreciation and death of Laserdisc is another sting in my side! **SIGH**

[aramkolt]

Anything I said should be taken with a grain of salt compared to lingyi and delisam34 who have much more experience with beta. I just got into it within the last 2 years mostly for the prospect of seeing how hard they are to work on more for repair/refurb/potentially future transfer services if I run into people that have tapes that need transferring.

I am surprised that betaphiles haven't put out guides for S-Video modding common models. I'm still pretty sure it wouldn't be very difficult unless I'm missing something obvious. No one here has attempted that I take it?

[timtape]

Again, Dellsam 34, did the manufacturers claim that VHS recordings played significantly better on the higher definition SVHS or Beta ED decks? If true, why wouldnt they? Plus they had the business incentive to mention it. It would have been a selling point for people who already had valuable VHS recordings.
JVC's SVHS Owners Manuals that I've read state that the full resolution of SVHS is only possible using s-video cables and sockets for recording and for playback. But as for any improvement in VHS recorded tapes when played with s-video, they are silent. If what you say is true, what a missed opportunity by JVC, the inventors of both VHS and SVHS. Or is there a simple explanation?

[lingyi]

I am surprised that betaphiles haven't put out guides for S-Video modding common models. I'm still pretty sure it wouldn't be very difficult unless I'm missing something obvious. No one here has attempted that I take it?

Just a layman, but since Beta and VHS are Y/C natively, it must be combined in the circuity to output as composite, so yes, it definitely should be possible to separate the signal before then.

IMO, for Sony, who was the lone supplier of Beta(max) machines by the late '80's, I think they understood that the general public just didn't care about additional video quality. Tugging on one of the thorns in my side, this was demonstrated by the popularity of the objectively lower quality of LP mode introduced in VHS by RCA. The American general public just saw 4 hours vs 2 hours on Beta and gobbled it up.

Another major factor in the lack of S-Video in Beta(max) was that most TVs at the time lacked an S-Video jack. Egg before the hen. I was far ahead of the mainstream when I got my PVM in the early 90's, so I was ready for S-Video, but only few high end TVs and monitors had it then.

Not Dellsam34, but I'll refer you to lordsmurf's VCR buying guide: https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-restore/1567-vcr-buying-guide.html . Note that there are many more S-VHS machines that are not on his recommended list. Higher end and professional machines were built to higher standards with supposedly higher quality components.

On the Beta(max) side, IMO Sony shot themselves in the foot by necessarily building lower quality SuperBeta and ED-Beta machines to stay in the VCR market.

[dellsam34]

Please don't spread misinfomation.

Disagreeing is not mis information, I lived that era and everything I said is true, S-Video was not relevant to most people, few TV sets had it, Also I never said analog video has pixels, I said CRT TV panels has low pixel count, lower than what NTSC and PAL was capable of resolving, Sure you can see the difference between S-VHS and VHS tapes on a CRT set, but seeing the difference between VHS over S-Video and VHS over composite over a CRT monitor is blatant lie.

[dellsam34]

Again, Dellsam 34, did the manufacturers claim that VHS recordings played significantly better on the higher definition SVHS or Beta ED decks? If true, why wouldnt they? Plus they had the business incentive to mention it. It would have been a selling point for people who already had valuable VHS recordings.
JVC's SVHS Owners Manuals that I've read state that the full resolution of SVHS is only possible using s-video cables and sockets for recording and for playback. But as for any improvement in VHS recorded tapes when played with s-video, they are silent. If what you say is true, what a missed opportunity by JVC, the inventors of both VHS and SVHS. Or is there a simple explanation?

Marketing does not work the way you think it does, so many features and options were available in a product that a manufacturer never talks about because marketing is driven by profit not technicality, so they get to decide what to publish and how to publish it in a marketing flyer or an ad based on the public appeal not technical facts. Kind of like politicians, they have to decide what to state and what to not to appeal their constituents to the extent of lying, Keep in mind, manufacturers were still selling VHS VCRs so why they trash them for playing back VHS tapes worse than their S-VHS counterparts, this cannot be good from a marketing perspective.

But why we keep regurgitating this topic? We have talked ad nauseam about it, and once again the benefit of having a S-VHS machine is not just S-Video out, the TBC, the better image processing, better heads ...etc. You may not see a huge difference coming out of a S-VHS machine own S-Video and composite sockets because it's already a great machine to begin with, but upgrading from a low end composite VHS player only to a S-VHS machine with S-Video out is a big step up, Making such comparison would be comparing apples to oranges wouldn't be? So this is why having a S-VHS machine is not just about the S-Video socket availability, it's a package of upgrades.

[dellsam34]

I am surprised that betaphiles haven't put out guides for S-Video modding common models. I'm still pretty sure it wouldn't be very difficult unless I'm missing something obvious. No one here has attempted that I take it?

This proves my earlier point, if playing VHS tapes was a huge concern like playing Macrovision tapes was, it would have had mods, bypasses and addons already, It wasn't worth the effort, Maybe very few attempts here and there over the years but nothing official.
I had recently some e-mail exchange with a guy who sent me some handmade schematics for a Y-C mod, His handwriting was so bad that I'm not sure what to make of it, If you want it I can send it to you.

[timtape]

Again, Dellsam 34, did the manufacturers claim that VHS recordings played significantly better on the higher definition SVHS or Beta ED decks? If true, why wouldnt they? Plus they had the business incentive to mention it. It would have been a selling point for people who already had valuable VHS recordings.

JVC's SVHS Owners Manuals that I've read state that the full resolution of SVHS is only possible using s-video cables and sockets for recording and for playback. But as for any improvement in VHS recorded tapes when played with s-video, they are silent. If what you say is true, what a missed opportunity by JVC, the inventors of both VHS and SVHS. Or is there a simple explanation?

Marketing does not work the way you think it does, so many features and options were available in a product that a manufacturer never talks about because marketing is driven by profit not technicality, so they get to decide what to publish and how to publish it in a marketing flyer or an ad based on the public appeal not technical facts.

I mentioned not a marketing flyer or advert, but JVC SVHS Owners Manuals. Owners' Manuals are hopefully far more matter of fact and far less glossy than marketing literature, because the sale has already been made. The purpose is now different: not to "sell" a deck to a potential customer but to instruct the owner on how to competently use their new purchase. It's not about sales and marketing. It's not even just technical facts, but instruction and training. So the different purpose requires a different way of writing compared to advertising and marketing. I'm sure you understand this.

[dellsam34]

It's not about sales and marketing. It's not even just technical facts, but instruction and training. So the different purpose requires a different way of writing compared to advertising and marketing. I'm sure you understand this.

There you go.

[timtape]

I am surprised that betaphiles haven't put out guides for S-Video modding common models. I'm still pretty sure it wouldn't be very difficult unless I'm missing something obvious. No one here has attempted that I take it?

Maybe the same for the huge number of VHS decks. AFAIK the situation is similar to Betamax. Regular VHS decks did not have S-Video, even decks sold into the 2000's before they were discontinued. This was long after S-Video had been introduced on VCR's and TV sets. As with 8mm, and DVD, S-Video was added to higher resolution format decks.

Also SVHS and other higher band formats required tighter specs on tape time base accuracy. The same tighter spec was not necessary for the lower band signal of standard VHS or Betamax.

Another consequence of using a higher carrier frequency in SVHS and other higher def videotape formats was that it made signal dropouts more likely, and put more load demand on the dropout compensator. Also tape cleanliness for SVHS was now even more important. So the old saying that there is no free lunch applied.

So at least some of the extra engineering in SVHS decks may have only been needed for SVHS recording and playback. That's my understanding.

[lordsmurf]

I am surprised that betaphiles haven't put out guides

Most of us are old(er), we lack time now. If it wasn't done by now, we'll never do it. Just the honest answer.

Noting that I'm not a "-phile" of any kind. To me, most of those -phile people are nuts. What I refer to is "serious users", hobby or pro. lingyi is probably one of the biggest Beta guys I know, and he's been out it for years now that I recall.

[lingyi]

Noting that I'm not a "-phile" of any kind. To me, most of those -phile people are nuts.

Hey...I resemble that remark!

Yes, I got rid of all my videotape equipment in 2017 when I moved and had stopped using my machines years earlier. Good memories, but that's all they are. *SIGH* Just a layman, but I had some semi-pro equipment and a non-professional eye for differences in video quality.

Glad you're here!