Video conversion woes

[armyofquad]

I swear I don't come around here just to complain about incompetent software programmers, but if they didn't waste so much of my valuable time, maybe I'd have nicer things to say about them.

Again, I find myself devoting hours of time to a project, only to have further time added to the process due to nothing working as it is supposed to! I'm sick and tired of it, and no one has ever provided any stable or consistent path forward to actually edit video without encountering flaw after flaw after flaw in such god awful software designs.

I swear, it seems that a requirement to program anything that has to do with video editing requires a certain level of incompetence. Is this a way for editors to pad their hours for paid work?

Anyways, I have a youtube download (which is not the problem file before you start raising your eyebrows at using such a god awful source) of a low quality recording of a 1984 Friday Night Videos episode. The only recording I can find of this particular episode. And, due to the music industry wanting to ensure no one has any fun without them getting a cut of money, the recording has been snipped to remove the majority of the music videos, although since my goal is to replace that content with superior sources, that's not a big deal - just adds a bit more of slicing and dicing into my Vegas session to align my sources.

So, we get to 4th video of the episode, Prince - When Doves Cry. For my superior source, I turned to the bluray release of Purple Rain, which includes this and other music videos as extra content on the disc. At this time, the only method I have of ripping a bluray disc is the use of makemkv, which will rip the individual elements to mkv files. This is not ideal for my purposes since Vegas isn't going to import the mkv file into the session, but it gives me a file to work with.

And that brings us to the problem - what voodoo do I need to practice to get this data out of the mkv and into files that Vegas will play nicely with? Or - is there a better option for ripping blurays?

So, if I look at the contents of the mkv ripped from the bluray using makemkv, I see it contains the following:

General
Unique ID : 47658043305848381534818928400124784874 (0x23DA9AF2EEDA62613133EAF878A2B0EA)
Complete name : V:\Movies\Purple Rain\title_t09.mkv
Format : Matroska
Format version : Version 2
File size : 221 MiB
Duration : 5 min 59 s
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 5 158 kb/s
Frame rate : 27.905 FPS
Encoded date : 2024-03-27 21:00:34 UTC
Writing application : MakeMKV v1.17.6 win(x64-release)
Writing library : libmakemkv v1.17.6 (1.3.10/1.5.2) win(x64-release)

Video
ID : 1
ID in the original source medium : 4113 (0x1011)
Format : MPEG Video
Format version : Version 2
Format profile : Main@Main
Format settings : CustomMatrix / BVOP
Format settings, BVOP : Yes
Format settings, Matrix : Custom
Format settings, GOP : Variable
Codec ID : V_MPEG2
Codec ID/Info : MPEG 1 or 2 Video
Duration : 5 min 59 s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 4 961 kb/s
Maximum bit rate : 9 800 kb/s
Width : 720 pixels
Height : 480 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 4:3
Frame rate mode : Variable
Frame rate : 27.905 FPS
Original frame rate : 23.976 (24000/1001) FPS
Standard : Component
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Scan order : 2:3 Pulldown
Compression mode : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.514
Time code of first frame : 00:59:58:00
Time code source : Group of pictures header
GOP, Open/Closed : Open
GOP, Open/Closed of first frame : Closed
Stream size : 213 MiB (96%)
Language : English
Default : No
Forced : No
Color primaries : BT.601 NTSC
Transfer characteristics : BT.601
Matrix coefficients : BT.601
Original source medium : Blu-ray

Audio
ID : 2
ID in the original source medium : 4352 (0x1100)
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Commercial name : Dolby Digital
Codec ID : A_AC3
Duration : 5 min 59 s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 192 kb/s
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel layout : L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate : 31.250 FPS (1536 SPF)
Compression mode : Lossy
Stream size : 8.24 MiB (4%)
Title : Stereo
Language : English
Service kind : Complete Main
Default : Yes
Forced : No
Original source medium : Blu-ray


Ok, nothing fancy, just DVD quality mpg and crappy stereo ac3 encoded audio. So, shouldn't be too much trouble to extract them.

tsmuxer is a tool I often turn to if I want to demux an element from a file. So I used tsmuxer to extract to separate mpg and ac3 files.

Of course, Vegas takes one look at the ac3 file and is all like "what the heck is that? I don't know what that is, and I'm not going to let you drag that in..." Which, is absolute bs, as Vegas has no problem dragging in ac3 audio that's contained within an mpg. But stand it alone as an ac3 file, and it suddenly gets all upity about what it will and will not acknowledge. And they have the audacity to call this "professional" software. Geeze. But that's fine, I can simply covert the ac3 to wav using audiomuxer.

So now I have separate silent mpg, and a .wav file. Except that, when I pull them into Vegas, the ends don't line up. They are not anywhere close to the same length.

WTF!?!?!?!

Now then, if I look at the properties of each individual file, they do show as being the same length:

General
Complete name : E:\Projects in progress\FNV\1984-08-17\dvd\title_t09_track1_[eng].mpg
Format : MPEG Video
Format version : Version 2
File size : 213 MiB
Duration : 5 min 59 s
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 4 961 kb/s
Frame rate : 23.976 FPS
FileExtension_Invalid : mpgv mpv mp1v m1v mp2v m2v

Video
Format : MPEG Video
Format version : Version 2
Format profile : Main@Main
Format settings : CustomMatrix / BVOP
Format settings, BVOP : Yes
Format settings, Matrix : Custom
Format settings, GOP : Variable
Duration : 5 min 59 s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 4 961 kb/s
Maximum bit rate : 9 800 kb/s
Width : 720 pixels
Height : 480 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 4:3
Frame rate : 23.976 (24000/1001) FPS
Standard : Component
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Scan order : 2:3 Pulldown
Compression mode : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.599
Time code of first frame : 00:59:58:00
GOP, Open/Closed : Open
GOP, Open/Closed of first frame : Closed
Stream size : 213 MiB (100%)
Color primaries : BT.601 NTSC
Transfer characteristics : BT.601
Matrix coefficients : BT.601

General
Complete name : E:\Projects in progress\FNV\1984-08-17\dvd\title_t09_track2_[eng]_DELAY 0ms.wav
Format : Wave
Format settings : WaveFormatExtensible
File size : 98.8 MiB
Duration : 5 min 59 s
Overall bit rate mode : Constant
Overall bit rate : 2 304 kb/s

Audio
Format : PCM
Format settings : Little / Signed
Codec ID : 00000001-0000-0010-8000-00AA00389B71
Duration : 5 min 59 s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 2 304 kb/s
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel layout : L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 kHz
Bit depth : 24 bits
Stream size : 98.8 MiB (100%)


As can clearly be seen, they are both 5 min 59 seconds, same length as the original mkv file they were extracted from.

Yet, they look like this in Vegas:


[Attachment 80089 - Click to enlarge]

For some reason, Vegas thinks the video is 6 minutes 58 seconds. Not sure where or how it's getting that extra minute of content. But it's not like it's just blank video at the last minute, it's stretching it out to that length.

So my mindset is, if I can somehow get a single file that contains both, that should force anything to recognize the sync between them and show them at the right time. So I go back into tsmuxer to combine my mpg (which it extracted in the first place) and .wav into something. I figured tx muxing into a ts file ought to be adequate for our purposes here. However, when trying to do this, tsmuxer throws up this gem:


[Attachment 80091 - Click to enlarge]

IT'S THE PROGRAM THAT EXTRACTED THIS DAMN FILE, AND IT SUDDENLY DOESN'T KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH IT!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Who in the hell programmed this POS program. Go back to school, you suck!

Ok - lets step back here. If I want a ts file of this - why didn't I create that in the first place?

So, I go back to my mkv, and use tsmuxer to mux it to a ts file.

Which now creates a file that pulls into vegas at the correct length, but has video that freezes frequently (and I don't mean hardware freezes, I mean I zoom in to the track and look at the frames, and they are all identical frames where there should be movement, and then at some point it jumps to later and is moving again), and also will eventually make Vegas freeze and crash.

So....WHAT GIVES!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

How in the #@^%$@&@$%!$^@#%$^$^@#$@!@%$ can I import this video into a Vegas session without everything finding a way to block my efforts?

Does anyone make tools that are actually helpful at video editing, rather than crap that just wastes valuable time I could be using doing actual video editing?

[armyofquad]

Ugh, small correction - my original extraction was done by mkvextract. So my confusion at tsmuxer not recognizing the mpg it created was in error - it did not extract that mpg.

[armyofquad]

Upon further playing around, I find the following:

If I use tsmuxer to extract a video only file of the mkv, it creates an mpv (which I can rename to an mpg so that vegas acknowledges it's existence), which pulls into Vegas at too long, but at a 23.976 framerate.

If I use tsmuxer to mux to a ts file, even if it's only the video and leaves out the audio, it results in a file that imports into vegas at the correct timing, but with a 59.940 framerate, and the freezing issue.

What gives?


I just want to use this video in Vegas, is that so much to ask?

[davexnet]

Can Vegas access the mpeg-2 video in the proper mpg container?
Open the MKV in Avidemux,
at "output format" (lower left) set it to mpeg-PS muxer and save

[armyofquad]

Can Vegas access the mpeg-2 video in the proper mpg container?
Open the MKV in Avidemux,
at "output format" (lower left) set it to mpeg-PS muxer and save

That seems to have done the trick.

I was getting to a point where I was playing around with different extraction/conversion methods of the mkv, but I kept overlooking avidemux because - I'm not dealing with an avi file, I'm not going to an avi file, so why would I want to use an app that is named for working with avi files? An unintuitive choice, that I am going to have to remember.

Thanks dave, I owe you a coke.

[armyofquad]

This felt familiar, and upon digging, I had a very similar problem back in March, which had the same result, and same solution. If only I remembered.

It seems that for whatever reason, mkvextract and tsmuxer do not extract properly when it comes to the mkv's created from this bluray. Sure, it creates files that will playback fine in vlc, but somehow there's something incorrect about them when trying to use them in Vegas, including the current version of Vegas.

So it seems a big part of my problem is back to computer programmers - whoever programmed mkvextract and tsmuxer, have done something incorrect that results in extractions that are not to spec.

I guess what I'm finding is, these 2 apps are ones to approach with caution, and likely culprits when running into problems. And I will need to make a note that avidemux is for more than just avi files, and is appearing to be a much better tool for extraction than mkvextract and tsmuxer.

[ProWo]

First of all, it's a shame that Vegas can't open mkv videos.
About your problem:
Use clever FFmpeg-GUI, small, portable and needs no installation.
Download it, extract the exe file wherever you want and run it. Follow the instructions.
When everything is done, load your mkv video, click main, click multiplex, select mp4 as container and click multiplex.
Done.
You can import the created mp4 into Vegas.

[_Al_]

Vegas does not load elementary streams, except mp3 or wave which are another standalone universe on its own. Like downloading an audio under a video. You do not download an AC3 on websites as a free or paid audio.

Professional software's are far more picky regarding what you can load than other "folk" software, mostly to parasite on others work and focusing to those downloaded formats, end user formats. The have to focus to load videos from camcorders, cameras, and making sure all new major hardware makers and their "new releases" would work, which is hundreds of formats. Also main lossless or almost lossless formats that videographers work with. Not mpg, that is a final delivery format. If mpg, they focus on HDV and others, meaning formats that deliver camcorders as an example. Transport streams might have advantage for example. You cannot vouch and take care of all formats. That means professional software. To think you have to load everything and vouch for that is simply ridiculous. You have to vouch to load formats and edit them down to a frame, that is an enormous take. They could manage to download almost any format, but that is not all. They'd have to manage edit them without a problem. Maybe you have no idea what number of formats we are talking here, regarding just those created by recording devices.

You also managed to ridicule absolutely unique software's like tsMuxer or MKVtoolNix, free apps which are managed by single folks (or were), that makes live easier not for million but for a billion of people.

[armyofquad]

Something that creates non-standard files that crash video editing software is not making lives easier!

[_Al_]

First of all, it's a shame that Vegas can't open mkv videos.

There could be thousand of variations of possible arrangements inside!

[armyofquad]

First of all, it's a shame that Vegas can't open mkv videos.

There could be thousand of variations of possible arrangements inside!

But that's true of many other containers that Vegas will allow!

I realize my amateur video editing methods aren't professional - but they're not for professional pursuits, although I try to approach things as professionally as I can. I'm putting together the best quality version of Friday Night Video episodes with the highest quality sources available to us. That means relying on blu ray extractions, dvd extractions, various downloads, youtube rips....whatever I can get my hands on. It's not like the industry is doing us any favors and providing sources that make this job easy.

The results of hours of work can be found on archive - https://archive.org/details/@jonny_gators

How would one suggest I approach this for the best chances of success without running into these obstacles?

[_Al_]

Yes, it could be frustrating, gathering sources from out there, in past I wrote many BAT files that automatically re-encoded videos Vegas would not load into usable format. Person who edit videos just used them, they ended in a directory for editing use. You know that Avidemux might work for you, so you can use it.

Example Avisynth or Vapoursynth can load all kind of sources and you just re-encode them to a known video, your Vegas has no problem with. En masse , thru the night etc. So a custom utility would use a proper source plugin to load video. For DVD sources it was DVD to hardiskp , where audio track was selected and it QTGMC deinterlaced interlaced video (no DVD's for IVTC). That needed have 32bitAvisynth installed, it dates really back. So I would not recommend much using it. That's just an idea. Today I would do it 64bit and using Python, even gui, no problem, I have one constructed, but it is not for public.

That is a major hold up, I understand. There is no time to play like this, it can be frustrating, of course. But you have Vegas as an editing app, you must do it. Whatever you do, there must be compromises, there is no magic for do it all. If Avidemux can load it, you should be fine, beware of 24fps DVD's , you must IVTC them to get 23.976fps from 29.976i.

[armyofquad]

Ah, the joys of googling acronyms. I found what I needed, but I'm now also aware of the existence of the Indian Village Tennis Club. And the International Veterinary Training Center.

Generally, I just load whatever comes off of the DVD to Vegas, and render to 29.97 mpg, figuring if most of my sources are DVD sources, I may as well render to DVD quality, and then I put it in an mkv file and throw it on archive and to my plex server. But of course my sources vary in framerates, some DVDs are PAL and have framerates not to our standards, youtube seems to be rather inconsistent in it's framerates - I guess that goes with the upload.

Probably not the best practice....but it certainly is better than 40 year old SLP VHS TV recordings.

How is Vegas handling these when rendering? Is whatever it automatically does good enough? Or should I be adding another workflow to my process to format my sources better?

[davexnet]

Perhaps you should upload an example of your vegas rendered video; that's the best way to see what happened

[_Al_]

You complain a lot. If googling why don't you rather google IVTC DVD? We have two sapiens in a definition for our species.

If a DVD is made by a videographer using a camera or camcorder, DVD is truly 29.97 interlaced. And you deinterlace or let Vegas to deinterlace.
If DVD is a commercial DVD and was made from film, you can IVTC that mpg to get 23.976 progressive in Vegas. Or let it be 29.976i but it is a mix of progressive and interlace frames. Same as if viewing on screen.

[rgr]

So, we get to 4th video of the episode, Prince - When Doves Cry. For my superior source, I turned to the bluray release of Purple Rain, which includes this and other music videos as extra content on the disc. At this time, the only method I have of ripping a bluray disc is the use of makemkv, which will rip the individual elements to mkv files. This is not ideal for my purposes since Vegas isn't going to import the mkv file into the session, but it gives me a file to work with.

Have you tried repacking the mkv to mp4 or mpg?

ffmpeg -i input.mkv -c copy output.mp4 (or output.mpg)

The easiest way is probably through clever FFmpeg-GUI

However, it would be worth recompressing it because:
Scan order : 2:3 Pulldown

[JN-]

Using MakeMKV and converting / transcoding the (source blue-ray) mkv to mp4 with ffmpeg (H264 and aac) loads the progressive video into VP aok.

There is a very small fraction of a single frame audio plus video at end that needs quantizing.

Both audio and video are same length.

[JN-]

Of course BR > MakeMKV > ProresHQ > VP makes more sense to minimise quality loss. I found no quantisation issue here.

Subtitle output: With the .mkv output file created using MakeMKV and then used as input … That is … mkv > mp4, or mkv > mov, or mkv > mkv.

The only issue I found was that copying subtitles doesn’t work if output is .mp4 or .mov, an ffmpeg error occurs. Selecting output as .mkv though doesn't cause an error and the subtitles copy over. If u don’t need the subtitles then no issue.

However mkv in VP afaik is not workable.