Ripping Wonder Years DVD set - proper format?

[jimbodeanny]

Hello!

I recently picked up the complete "locker" 26-disc set of the Wonder Years, and I'm in the process of ripping all of the discs so that I can add them to my plex library as well as backups. So far, the process has been straight forward with MakeMKV. However, I've been a little confused with regards to the framerate/format of these discs. The DVDs themselves play at 29.97fps as I'd expect from just about any NTSC DVD, and when I look at the MKV files that MakeMKV creates, they are also ripped as 29.97fps interlaced files. Again, that doesn't surprise me, as I figure these came from old tape masters that were originally telecined for broadcast. In other words, I expected these to be originally 23.976fps that were telecined to play back at NTSC 29.97fps. But when I play the DVDs as well as the MKV files, they look like straight up 29.97fps footage which appears to be too smooth and "video like", not cinematic like I recall the show looking.

When I watch the Wonder Years on a streaming service (in this case Hulu), the show looks proper and the way I remember it at a framerate that resembles 23.976/24p.

After doing some digging, I figured that I simply needed to de-telecine/inverse telecine the MKV files through something like Handbrake. However, when I run them through Handbrake with the detelecine turned on (set to default), it doesn't really do much. (I end up with a file that has a slightly lower framerate, something in the 29.6**fps range).

I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong, but I can't seem to figure it out and it's driving me nuts. I've studied some footage inside VLC (with deinterlace off) and went frame-by-frame, and it looks like there are no repeating frames I can see. The only frames that are obviously interlaced are frames between scene changes. Again, it baffles me. I was certain this show was originally shot at 24/23.976fps since it was shot on film. And it doesn't help that Hulu seems to display it properly.

Maybe I'm wrong, losing my mind, but can anyone else confirm any of this and/or provide some insights? Am I going about this the wrong way?

Thanks!

-Jim

[davexnet]

Try setting frame rate to 23.976 manually when you ivtc

[jagabo]

Some youtube videos of the show I just downloaded and viewed were 30p -- with smooth motion at each frame. Virtually nothing was shot at 30p so it's almost certain that the show was shot as interlaced NTSC video, then deinterlaced to 30p for youtube.

[jimbodeanny]

Some youtube videos of the show I just downloaded and viewed were 30p -- with smooth motion at each frame. Virtually nothing was shot at 30p so it's almost certain that the show was shot as interlaced NTSC video, then deinterlaced to 30p for youtube.

Except that this show was shot on film, which by nature, cannot be recorded as interlaced, and I highly doubt it was shot at 30p from the getgo.

[Bwaak]

when I play the DVDs as well as the MKV files, they look like straight up 29.97fps footage which appears to be too smooth and "video like", not cinematic like I recall the show looking.

Load it into something likeVirtualDub, add deinterlacing filter with doubling frame rate, and count frames. If you see the 3-2 pattern, try the IVTC filter and see how it looks like. Here is an example.

BTW, I bought a complete DVD set of The Wonder Years on eBay last year for $33, which I consider a great deal. I like this show! I don't bother digitizing it, my DVD player works fine.

Some youtube videos of the show I just downloaded and viewed were 30p -- with smooth motion at each frame. Virtually nothing was shot at 30p so it's almost certain that the show was shot as interlaced NTSC video, then deinterlaced to 30p for youtube.

Expensive American TV shows were shot on 35-mm film at 24 fps, although I've read somewhere that Friends was shot at 30 fps, but I could not confirm this info anywhere else. Cheaper multicamera sitcoms were shot with TV cameras in 30i.

I came across quite a few 1990s music videos that show clear 30p pattern. I wonder whether they shot them on film at 30fps, or on video and then dropped every other field for more film-like movement.

[jimbodeanny]

Try setting frame rate to 23.976 manually when you ivtc

Tried that. Forcing it to 23.976 (with "constant framerate" checked) results in jittery/choppy looking playback and motion. If I check "peak framerate" it's very slightly better but still off. Guess I might have to just live with the 29.97 smoothness.

[jimbodeanny]

I don't bother digitizing it, my DVD player works fine.

I like to have backups as well as add them to my Plex library so I can watch them easily in every room, regardless of whether or not there's a DVD/BR player in that room.

[davexnet]

If you'd like a second opinion, clip off 30 - 60 seconds of the footage from your MKV and post it here

[Bwaak]

Attached are clips digitized by me off a VHS tape. The main footage in both videos looks very much like 30p. I do see occasional combing and ghosting in the blue footage of the first clip.

[davexnet]

Attached are clips digitized by me off a VHS tape. The main footage in both videos looks very much like 30p. I do see occasional combing and ghosting in the blue footage of the first clip.

It's a mix of underlying frame rates, typical of music videos

[jimbodeanny]

Okay, I've uploaded two files. They are the same two minute clip from an episode. I tried to use a clip that has some motion in it.

The first clip is straight from my MakeMKV DVD rip - no encoding or changes from the rip.

The second clip is a screen capture from Hulu to show the difference. It didn't come out quite as nice, but hopefully it proves my point. Otherwise, it may just be easier to take a look at an episode on Hulu (if you have a subscription.)

[Bwaak]

It's a mix of underlying frame rates, typical of music videos

I know. The point was to illustrate that the main part of the footage is 30p, which I thought had not been used in SD videos. Then again, 16-mm @ 30 fps was probably cheaper anyway than 35-mm @ 24 fps, so why not.

Okay, I've uploaded two files. They are the same two minute clip from an episode. I tried to use a clip that has some motion in it.

The first clip is straight from my MakeMKV DVD rip - no encoding or changes from the rip.

The second clip is a screen capture from Hulu to show the difference. It didn't come out quite as nice, but hopefully it proves my point. Otherwise, it may just be easier to take a look at an episode on Hulu (if you have a subscription.)

The first clip indeed looks like 30p, although there is combing on shot changes, so maybe it was shot at 30p, and it is just bad DVD mastering performed in video mode. Interesting.

[jagabo]

I believe the original is 30i. The DVD was deinterlaced to 30p (encoded as 30i), the hulu video was deinterlaced to 60p then decimated to 24p.

[davexnet]

Then again, 16-mm @ 30 fps was probably cheaper anyway than 35-mm @ 24 fps, so why not.

.

Was 16mm ever shot at 30 fps? I thought 24 was the typical film rate

[Bwaak]

Was 16mm ever shot at 30 fps? I thought 24 was the typical film rate

IDK. The Wonder Years does not look like 35-mm, but it is not 60 pps (pictures per second) either. Maybe they shot it on video and dropped every other field for film look.

Google is my friend

I'm a director/cameraman in a small market.. We shoot hundreds of thousands of feet of 16mm film each year. It is all for commercials. Most of it is shot at 30 fps.

Our reels are enthusiastically received at agencies all over the country, from large NY agencies to smaller creative shops in mid-sized markets. The single most-often hear comment is, "I can't believe that is 16mm". This comment is never, never meant to be taken, "it looks like tape". It is always said in belief that it "looks like 35".

Really, other than trying to do good lighting and having a great colorist, we don't do anything any different than most people. But we always shoot our 16mm at 30 fps. And our 16mm NEVER LOOKS LIKE TAPE.

Yes, I think this will be another thread. Later today, I'll post a document that is widely circulated by a NY colorist, The Anti 30 FPS theory. Then later, maybe my own technical rebuttal.

Or here:

When Survivor went HD, they chose to shoot in 30 fps to avoid the "video" look.

The early seasons of Curb Your Enthusiasm were shot on interlaced video and deinterlaced to 30 fps. You can see outtakes that are still in 60i. This was a common practice in PAL countries since deinterlacing (the British called it "flashing") down to 25 fps looks very close to film's frame rate.

It is amazing that prominent members and staff of the linked forum write inanities like, "30fps shot with a RED digital camera looks like soap opera" and "choosing to shoot 30fps ensures the video look", and this is in 2023, not in 2003.

[davexnet]

Good finds, thanks for posting

[jimbodeanny]

Quick update: I've decided I might attempt to go down the AVIsynth rabbit hole to see if I get different/better results. (If anyone has suggestions with that - let me know!)

With that though, I'm currently backing up every disc to ISO first which is probably a good thing to do anyways.

[jagabo]

Use TFM() to deinterlace the occasional interlaced frames (at shot changes).

TFM() + a little noise reduction, sharpening, levels adjustment...

[jimbodeanny]

Update: Well after doing a little more digging, I am now more confused than ever. I analyzed 5 different episodes for telecine and interlacing and there was absolutely zero consistently. Each episode fell into one of three categories.

1) There was telecine through the entire episode. (3 progressive frames, followed by 2 interlaced frames.) However, the intro title appeared to be 29.97/30p (or in other words 29.97fps with each frame unique and no combing. )

2) Some scenes were telecine, some were not (and instead appeared to be 30p).

3) The entire episode appeared to be 30p.

I'm so baffled as to why there's such inconsistency with how this DVD set was mastered. It makes no sense to me, but I'm nearing the point of just giving up. I basically have two easy choices:

A) Watch them as is and be distracted by the extra smoothness or
B) Watch them on Hulu, have what appears to be the proper framerate, but worse quality and less original music.

Ugh.

[october262]

Update: Well after doing a little more digging, I am now more confused than ever. I analyzed 5 different episodes for telecine and interlacing and there was absolutely zero consistently. Each episode fell into one of three categories.

1) There was telecine through the entire episode. (3 progressive frames, followed by 2 interlaced frames.) However, the intro title appeared to be 29.97/30p (or in other words 29.97fps with each frame unique and no combing. )

2) Some scenes were telecine, some were not (and instead appeared to be 30p).

3) The entire episode appeared to be 30p.

I'm so baffled as to why there's such inconsistency with how this DVD set was mastered. It makes no sense to me, but I'm nearing the point of just giving up. I basically have two easy choices:

A) Watch them as is and be distracted by the extra smoothness or
B) Watch them on Hulu, have what appears to be the proper framerate, but worse quality and less original music.

Ugh.

try the ones on archive.org - https://archive.org/details/thewonderyear/The+Wonder+Years+(1988)+-+S01E01+-+Pilot+(48...265+Panda).mkv

[jimbodeanny]

try the ones on archive.org - https://archive.org/details/thewonderyear/The+Wonder+Years+(1988)+-+S01E01+-+Pilot+(48...265+Panda).mkv

I've seen these and they aren't right. Very choppy and lots of dropped frames where there shouldn't be.

[october262]

try the ones on archive.org - https://archive.org/details/thewonderyear/The+Wonder+Years+(1988)+-+S01E01+-+Pilot+(48...265+Panda).mkv

I've seen these and they aren't right. Very choppy and lots of dropped frames where there shouldn't be.

Apple TV - https://tv.apple.com/us/show/the-wonder-years/umc.cmc.55eh6u5s7wrzddg4cskm0hmjz

[jimbodeanny]

try the ones on archive.org - https://archive.org/details/thewonderyear/The+Wonder+Years+(1988)+-+S01E01+-+Pilot+(48...265+Panda).mkv

I've seen these and they aren't right. Very choppy and lots of dropped frames where there shouldn't be.

Apple TV - https://tv.apple.com/us/show/the-wonder-years/umc.cmc.55eh6u5s7wrzddg4cskm0hmjz

I don't have Apple TV so not sure what the point of posting this link was.

[october262]

try the ones on archive.org - https://archive.org/details/thewonderyear/The+Wonder+Years+(1988)+-+S01E01+-+Pilot+(48...265+Panda).mkv

I've seen these and they aren't right. Very choppy and lots of dropped frames where there shouldn't be.

Apple TV - https://tv.apple.com/us/show/the-wonder-years/umc.cmc.55eh6u5s7wrzddg4cskm0hmjz

I don't have Apple TV so not sure what the point of posting this link was.

try running your videos through ffmpeg and see if you can get a proper framerate - https://superuser.com/questions/1718892/force-ffmpeg-to-produce-constant-frame-rate

[Bwaak]

I'm so baffled as to why there's such inconsistency with how this DVD set was mastered. It makes no sense to me, but I'm nearing the point of just giving up. I basically have two easy choices:

A) Watch them as is and be distracted by the extra smoothness or
B) Watch them on Hulu, have what appears to be the proper framerate, but worse quality and less original music.

Ugh.

The most universal choice is to convert everything to 60p, this is what all TVs do when they cannot figure out the cadence. This is also how you would watch it on an interlaced CRT TV, with 60 fields per second.