Quality Question about Blu-Ray

[Mr. Fanservice]

All right, I have two videos, the original BD source, and a re-encode I made of it. I want to burn in subtitles and convert it to 60fps with FlowFrames. Since both processes require encoding, should I use the original or the re-encode? Which one would have the higher quality and/or be more suited for those tasks?

Also, does converting videos to apng and gif files also require encoding? Doe extracting frames as png. jpg, or webp files do not involve encoding?

[poisondeathray]

All right, I have two videos, the original BD source, and a re-encode I made of it. I want to burn in subtitles and convert it to 60fps with FlowFrames. Since both processes require encoding, should I use the original or the re-encode? Which one would have the higher quality and/or be more suited for those tasks?

Original would be better , assuming your re-encode was lossy

"60 FPS" (or actually 59.94, or more exactly 60000/1001) is only supported at 1280x720 resolution for BD . 1920x1080p59.94 is not supported by BD

60/1 FPS is not supported by BD

Also, does converting videos to apng and gif files also require encoding?

Re-encoding generally for most types of video. Unless for the video case you started with png (e.g. png in mov)

Doe extracting frames as png. jpg, or webp files do not involve encoding?

This generally requires re-encoding for most types of video. If your video started as mjpg then it can be extracted as jpg

[Mr. Fanservice]

All right, I have two videos, the original BD source, and a re-encode I made of it. I want to burn in subtitles and convert it to 60fps with FlowFrames. Since both processes require encoding, should I use the original or the re-encode? Which one would have the higher quality and/or be more suited for those tasks?

Original would be better , assuming your re-encode was lossy

"60 FPS" (or actually 59.94, or more exactly 60000/1001) is only supported at 1280x720 resolution for BD . 1920x1080p59.94 is not supported by BD

60/1 FPS is not supported by BD

Also, does converting videos to apng and gif files also require encoding?

Re-encoding generally for most types of video. Unless for the video case you started with png (e.g. png in mov)

Doe extracting frames as png. jpg, or webp files do not involve encoding?

This generally requires re-encoding for most types of video. If your video started as mjpg then it can be extracted as jpg

So that's a yes for converting to apng/gif and extracting frames requires encoding, and even if I use FlowFrames and its RIFE model to convert the 1080p Blu-Ray video into 60fps, it won't work?

[poisondeathray]

So that's a yes for converting to apng/gif and extracting frames requires encoding,

Yes - this is defined as "encoding" . The apng and gif are different data type than the video

and even if I use FlowFrames and its RIFE model to convert the 1080p Blu-Ray video into 60fps, it won't work?

For an authored Blu-Ray video on disc, it's not compatible with BD spec . Authoring tools will not allow it. Blu-ray does not support 1920x1080 @ 59.94p , only at 1280x720. "60fps" as in 60.0000 FPS isn't supported at all

However, there are many BD players that can play out of spec video, or through USB

[Mr. Fanservice]

So that's a yes for converting to apng/gif and extracting frames requires encoding,

Yes - this is defined as "encoding" . The apng and gif are different data type than the video

and even if I use FlowFrames and its RIFE model to convert the 1080p Blu-Ray video into 60fps, it won't work?

For an authored Blu-Ray video on disc, it's not compatible with BD spec . Authoring tools will not allow it. Blu-ray does not support 1920x1080 @ 59.94p , only at 1280x720. "60fps" as in 60.0000 FPS isn't supported at all

However, there are many BD players that can play out of spec video, or through USB

But most Blu-Ray/video players don't, only on 1280x720 is 60fps BD videos allowed. And what about extracting video frames as png, jpg, or webp?

[poisondeathray]

And what about extracting video frames as png, jpg, or webp?

What about it ? What is the question ?

It's not really "extracting". It's converting video to an image sequence

If it's about blu-ray - blu ray doesn't support image sequences

[Mr. Fanservice]

And what about extracting video frames as png, jpg, or webp?

What about it ? What is the question ?

It's not really "extracting". It's converting video to an image sequence

If it's about blu-ray - blu ray doesn't support image sequences

I mean, when you extract frames from any video, BD or not, does it require encoding (thus the resulting images will not be the same quality as the video)? And why is it impossible for 1080p blu ray videos to have 60fps (even with tools like FlowFrames) and most video players (like MPC-HC and PotPlayer) can't play them, but not for 720p?

[poisondeathray]

I mean, when you extract frames from any video, BD or not, does it require encoding (thus the resulting images will not be the same quality as the video)?

Yes those image types require re-encoding and there can be loss from colorspace conversions, even when using "lossless" compression.

webp can be lossless in terms of compression , but webp in lossless mode is RGB, not YUV

There are some exceptions. See above . e.g. Png in Mov can be "extracted" as a Png sequence essentially as a stream copy without loss or recompression . Because PNG is the same thing as PNG , it's essentially remuxed

But if you start with typical YCbCr (YUV) video, there is technically quality loss even with PNG. Because of YCbCr to RGB conversion - a colorspace conversion that is non reversible without loss . RGB has to be 32bit float in order to be truely lossless from a YCbCr source. PNG does not support 32bit (PNG only supports 8 and 16bit). EXR and TIFF image sequences can support 32bit float, but the filesizes are massive

And why is it impossible for 1080p blu ray videos to have 60fps (even with tools like FlowFrames) and most video players (like MPC-HC and PotPlayer) can't play them, but not for 720p?

Because of the Blu ray spec. The early generation BD players had very weak chipsets. BD Spec is limited AVC to Level 4.1. 1920x1080 @ 29.97 was the maximum . 1920x1080p59.94 is Level 4.2 . Video players on a computer use a more powerful CPU and/or GPU to decode, so can play much higher spec video, and are more versatile (unless you have very old hardware)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Video_Coding#Levels

New gen BD players can play files directly from USB, even L4.2 and even higher . But authored optical disc will always adhere to the BD specifications

[Mr. Fanservice]

I mean, when you extract frames from any video, BD or not, does it require encoding (thus the resulting images will not be the same quality as the video)?

Yes those image types require re-encoding and there can be loss from colorspace conversions, even when using "lossless" compression.

webp can be lossless in terms of compression , but webp in lossless mode is RGB, not YUV

There are some exceptions. See above . e.g. Png in Mov can be "extracted" as a Png sequence essentially as a stream copy without loss or recompression . Because PNG is the same thing as PNG , it's essentially remuxed

But if you start with typical YCbCr (YUV) video, there is technically quality loss even with PNG. Because of YCbCr to RGB conversion - a colorspace conversion that is non reversible without loss . RGB has to be 32bit float in order to be truely lossless from a YCbCr source. PNG does not support 32bit (PNG only supports 8 and 16bit). EXR and TIFF image sequences can support 32bit float, but the filesizes are massive

And why is it impossible for 1080p blu ray videos to have 60fps (even with tools like FlowFrames) and most video players (like MPC-HC and PotPlayer) can't play them, but not for 720p?

Because of the Blu ray spec. The early generation BD players had very weak chipsets. BD Spec is limited AVC to Level 4.1. 1920x1080 @ 29.97 was the maximum . 1920x1080p59.94 is Level 4.2 . Video players on a computer use a more powerful CPU and/or GPU to decode, so can play much higher spec video, and are more versatile (unless you have very old hardware)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Video_Coding#Levels

New gen BD players can play files directly from USB, even L4.2 and even higher . But authored optical disc will always adhere to the BD specifications

Well, my video have YUV, so that means the results will not be lossless, even with png, webp, and other lossless image formats?

[poisondeathray]

Well, my video have YUV, so that means the results will not be lossless, even with png, webp, and other lossless image formats?

Yes - Typical image formats like png, webp will not be 100% lossless because of the integer colorspace conversion. You cannot get back the original Y,U,V values

YUV to RGB can result in negative RGB values which are clipped in integer - clipping is loss. To preserve the negative values, you need float RGB .

32bit EXR and TIFF can be lossless if handled properly - because they preserve the negative values

Most people don't care about this, because the typical YUV source is lossy to begin with. eg. A BD source is actually very compressed to begin with . And when you "see" something on a display like a monitor - it's being converted to RGB somewhere for display anyways (so clipped on display). You can't see much difference when using high bitrates - lossy compression issues from low bitrates, inadequate compression are the ones most people can see

[Mr. Fanservice]

Well, my video have YUV, so that means the results will not be lossless, even with png, webp, and other lossless image formats?

Yes - Typical image formats like png, webp will not be 100% lossless because of the integer colorspace conversion. You cannot get back the original Y,U,V values

YUV to RGB can result in negative RGB values which are clipped in integer - clipping is loss. To preserve the negative values, you need float RGB .

32bit EXR and TIFF can be lossless if handled properly - because they preserve the negative values

Most people don't care about this, because the typical YUV source is lossy to begin with. eg. A BD source is actually very compressed to begin with . And when you "see" something on a display like a monitor - it's being converted to RGB somewhere for display anyways (so clipped on display). You can't see much difference when using high bitrates - lossy compression issues from low bitrates, inadequate compression are the ones most people can see

Would ffmpeg, Shutter Encoder, and even XnViewMP be able to help with this? What other lossless formats preserve all values?

[poisondeathray]

Would ffmpeg, Shutter Encoder, and even XnViewMP be able to help with this?

Not with typical image sequences - they have the same problems with integer RGB - and there are problems with handling float with those programs

What other lossless formats preserve all values?

YUV lossless video formats can (no RGB conversion) - why do you need an image sequence ?

EXR, TIFF float

Most image sequences are RGB, (or stored as YUV but decoded as RGB. )

In theory a lossless jpeg (ljpeg) sequence should be able to ; but you won't be able to use it correctly with most programs


Why do you care ? I wouldn't worry about it . BD is already quite lossy to begin with, and there will be negligible differences if you use high enough bitrates

eg. if you have an 8bit sRGB monitor , when you view original BD , it's going to "look" same as the PNG. It's being converted to sRGB for display on the monitor, and same as 8bit sRGB to the PNG . You might consider a lossless workflow if you had other things to do , other operations , filters or for use in other programs