Can I Capture Betamax with a Sony HVR-M25AE & a Black Magic Shuttle?

[Neil-Betamax]

Hi,

Would anyone know if a Sony HVR-M25AE would be useful for stabalising a video signal from a Betamax?
I'm hoping this will potentially fix the issue with audio mis match I'm having.

I managed to get a black magic shuttle working and recording a good stable signal after I connected it through a Panasonic DVD Recorder.
This was achieved on a previous post thanks to help on this forum.
The only problem was that the audio went out of sync after a few minutes recording.

I have a Sony HVR-M25AE and I have connected it up.

Betamax video out (BNC) is going into the HVR (BNC). RCA audio out from the betamax is going into RCA audio in on the HVR.

Then, I'm using S-Video out from the HVR into my Black Magic Shuttle. I'm using Blackmagic Media Express software to capture on my Macbook (i7).

So far, my capture software is recieving audio and video but the picture keeps cutting out in a kind of intermittant way, which may be due to the limits of the blackbagic shuttle as it's known to do this with certain signals if they aren't 100% stable.

I haven't got as far as understanding the HVR enough to know if its suitable for this purpose, so currently I can see the menu screen whilst trying this out and above that, have the issue of the image dropping out to a black screen now & then, whilst on the display of the HVR it is stable.

The next step would be to connect my DVD recorder again in order to keep the screen stable, so the image and audio would go from the HVR, to the DVD player, out the DVD player (S-Video & RCA audio) into the black magic which has previously worked.
I'm wondering if I do that, whether the HVR would correct the audio and video mis match or whether there is something else causing this. I wonder if the HVR would in affect be used as a TBC if I'm to understand this properly, converting it to progressive and correcting the audio timing throughout the process?

Any thoughts on this would be fantastic you could possibly shed some light on this.

Thanks peeps,

Neil

[dellsam34]

I guess you answered your own question about TBC.
My thoughts is get rid of the BM intensity shuttle.

[Neil-Betamax]

I guess you answered your own question about TBC.
My thoughts is get rid of the BM intensity shuttle.

Thanks for your thoughts. My only other option is to use my PC. The processor isn't quite as good (i5) but it has firewire, so I could run that from the HVR assuming the HVR is designed to be used in this way, or if it's possible to use the HVR to get a constant signal from the Betamax. I'd then need to look at software to run on that, Virtualdub can be too complexed for someone like me who might want to minimize on technical options, but hopefully Media Express will be good enough to run on the PC.


Maybe the video signal is cutting out due to the design of the BM Shuttle? I know it's known to have issues. It did give a great solid video signal using Betamax> DVD recorder > BM Shuttle > Macbook, but the problem is audio mis match.

I'm not sure if the HVR will solve the audio mis match problem and whether it infact does act as a TBC in this set up, but hopefully it does. So I guess my next step will be to try Betamax > HVR > Firewire on the PC and see if there's any audio mis match.

[oln]

If the image drops out intermittently I suspect the HVR is just passing the video through unmodified (or just converting from composite to s-video.) What did you connect it to the shuttle with? The component output on the HVR may or may not act differently to the composite/s-video ones (seems HDMI will not output video from the video inputs.). Alternatively you could use the HDMI out on the dvd-recorder to ensure that there are no sync issues on that side though that requires you to get a hdmi splitter dongle that helps avoid copy protection otherwise the HDMI output won't work.

The output from the dvd-recorder ought to avoid audio sync issues so not sure why that would be happening unless there are some problems with the computer/storage that is causing the sync issues, e.g using uncompressed rather than something like prores or a lossless format can often cause issues due to the large file sizes it makes. Not sure what format blackmagics capture app supports at the moment, I've mostly used amarectv with the shuttle usb for capture. (Also had noise issues on the shuttle usb on the s-video input so prefer to use component or hdmi if available but YMMV.)

[dellsam34]

That's an inherit problem of the USB 2.0, Capturing lossless YUV or RGB with limited computer resources will cause audio to drift due to frame drop. OP can try a computer with USB 3.0 or a PCI card, even a stand alone frame TBC is not going to help in this case, too much data for the USB 2.0 to handle.

[Neil-Betamax]

That's an inherit problem of the USB 2.0, Capturing lossless YUV or RGB with limited computer resources will cause audio to drift due to frame drop. OP can try a computer with USB 3.0 or a PCI card, even a stand alone frame TBC is not going to help in this case, too much data for the USB 2.0 to handle.

Hi,

Thanks for the feedback. The Black Magic shuttle I'm using is USB 3 though, I'm using a Macbook which also supports USB 3.

My other hardware option would be to try my PC which supports Firewire, to see if I get any better results regards to audio timing. As far as I understand, firewire is fast than any USB speed, so I can always give that a go, although my Ram and CPU speed on the PC isn't as strong as my macbook.

[dellsam34]

The HVR is not going to fix the audio drift, it doesn't have a frame sychronizer. If you are getting audio drift with the shuttle via USB 3.0 with a DVD recorder in the flow it's a good indication that the shuttle is the one dropping the frames, Though there are reports that ES10/15 can drop frames using vdub, You need a different card, Aja and BM made some PCIe cards with stable captures.

[Neil-Betamax]

The HVR is not going to fix the audio drift, it doesn't have a frame sychronizer. If you are getting audio drift with the shuttle via USB 3.0 with a DVD recorder in the flow it's a good indication that the shuttle is the one dropping the frames, Though there are reports that ES10/15 can drop frames using vdub, You need a different card, Aja and BM made some PCIe cards with stable captures.

Thanks for that. From what I understand I think it'd be overkill to try firewire from the HVR to my PC, I could try it but sometimes it's good to minimize areas to try as there can be so many routes to go down. So it's great to ask about for some heads up on this. Appreciate it a lot.

It's a bit of a pain how BM advertise the shuttle as being fit for this purpose, especially since it cost a fair amount too and they're generally from what I understood, a reputable brand. I even had nightmares with the AV100 Canopus years back, that just wasn't up to the task either. I still have it but I'm pretty sure its not worth trying out with this PC which is better than the last I tried it with. I had better results with the easycap I were bought as a gift, at least it didn't go out of sync but the image quality was pretty bad.

I think for now (to save spending more on hardware), I might experiment with correcting the audio manually. It'll take forever but I've done similar in the past manually syncing two audio signals recorded at different bitrates.
Perhaps I could find a way to correct it in an editor. Perhaps if I record the audio externally in constant bit rate I might have a better chance, whilst not having a great deal of knowledge in that area I remember CBR (constant Bitrate) has more stability in general. That could be my next step I think.

[Neil-Betamax]

If the image drops out intermittently I suspect the HVR is just passing the video through unmodified (or just converting from composite to s-video.) What did you connect it to the shuttle with? The component output on the HVR may or may not act differently to the composite/s-video ones (seems HDMI will not output video from the video inputs.). Alternatively you could use the HDMI out on the dvd-recorder to ensure that there are no sync issues on that side though that requires you to get a hdmi splitter dongle that helps avoid copy protection otherwise the HDMI output won't work.

The output from the dvd-recorder ought to avoid audio sync issues so not sure why that would be happening unless there are some problems with the computer/storage that is causing the sync issues, e.g using uncompressed rather than something like prores or a lossless format can often cause issues due to the large file sizes it makes. Not sure what format blackmagics capture app supports at the moment, I've mostly used amarectv with the shuttle usb for capture. (Also had noise issues on the shuttle usb on the s-video input so prefer to use component or hdmi if available but YMMV.)

Hi, thanks for your thoughts. The setup I have used on this test is Betamax Composite (BNC) out, to Composite (BNC) in on the HVR. Then S-Video out to S-video in on the Black Magic Shuttle. Audio is RCA mono from Betamax, to stereo RCA into the HVR, then RCA stereo from HVER to the shuttle . I could try out composite out from the HVR, to composite in on the Black Magic Shuttle to see if this could rid the intermittance. However from what I'm understanding, it appears to be likely to be the Black Magic shuttle causing the audio to go out of sync, which is why I'm trying out the HVR as the DVD recorder works great to convert the image to progressive and get a good stable video output.

I did try a similar setup a while back and I stuck with S-Video into the BM Shuttle from the DVD REC. I had previously tried Betamax composite > DVD REC > HDMI out from DVD REC into BM Shuttle and I can't remember what happened. I had a seperate post about this some years ago, which lead me towards discovering the DVD REC was an option (that was a huge help!).
I have a HDMI splitter too, but I can't test with the DVD REC as its something I borrow when I'm ready to test that area again. But yes, I think I settled with S-video because HDMI from the DVD REC wasn't giving a result.

The BM Media Express records in uncompressed AVI format in the setup. Yes, massive files but I have the storage space. Perhaps as you say, this could be responsible for the audio sync issue, since as the file gets larger it eventually starts going out of sync? The files are about 100GB for 45mins or so, then I use Mpegstream to convert to MP4. It seems to go out of sync after about 14minutes of playback.

If the audio sync issue isn't related to the setup and it's to do with the compression, I'd be better off using the DVD REC instead of the HVR because from what I understand now, the issue with audio isn't related to the HVR and it won't help with audio sync.
So since I know the DVD REC gives a stable video signal using S-video out into the BM, I think the best option I have could be to experiment with compression and audio correction in the software, ditch the HVR and consider some different hardware in future to replace the BM Shuttle. Hmm, it might just have to be that way I guess.

[dellsam34]

The HVR is underkill not overkill, DV is a lossy format with limited color space 4:1:1 (NTSC), 4:2:0 (PAL) compared to what the MediaExpress can output which is lossless AVI 4:2:2. What model of DVD recorder you have, Some had success using component output from the DVD recorder to the Intensity shuttle disabling DVD processing such as de-interlacing and upscaling, output should be set to 720x480i for NTSC and 720x576i for PAL.

[Neil-Betamax]

The HVR is underkill not overkill, DV is a lossy format with limited color space 4:1:1 (NTSC), 4:2:0 (PAL) compared to what the MediaExpress can output which is lossless AVI 4:2:2. What model of DVD recorder you have, Some had success using component output from the DVD recorder to the Intensity shuttle disabling DVD processing such as de-interlacing and upscaling, output should be set to 720x480i for NTSC and 720x576i for PAL.

The DVD recorder is a Panasonic DMR-EX79. You actually helped me out a couple of years ago when I were getting to grips with it all, so thanks very much again for your time. I did have success as far as a stable video with no intermittence and audio was fine, up untill the point I realised the audio wasn't syncing after 15 mins or so. That was component from the betamax to DVD rec, then S-Video out the DVD to the BM Shuttle.

It is a fantastic machine the DMR-EX79, but as far as audio is concerned it's great to have ruled out the HVR being the issue with audio sync as I thought that HVR machine could correct it potentially. As far as I can figure out unless there's anything else to try with the hardware I have available, I might have to do things the long way around. If I capture the betamax tapes using this method (DVD to gain stability for the BM shuttle) and record the tapes in 30min chunks, I can always pull back the audio manually in an editor when it stops syncing. It would be a pain, but perhaps its a good way to go for this. I may try firewire from the HVR to my PC, just to be sure I can rule that one out.

I have about 15 Betamax tapes which mean a lot, the rest are just entertainment so I think it might be the tedious way to go, but practical regards to buying more hardware & fault finding too much further in order to archive this stuff and enjoy watching it without the need for the betamax, tapes or composite input.

[oln]

The BM Media Express records in uncompressed AVI format in the setup. Yes, massive files but I have the storage space. Perhaps as you say, this could be responsible for the audio sync issue, since as the file gets larger it eventually starts going out of sync? The files are about 100GB for 45mins or so, then I use Mpegstream to convert to MP4. It seems to go out of sync after about 14minutes of playback.

That could be an issue if the computer can't write to the disks fast enough yeah - would maybe try using the prores codec instead if available in BM express, or alternatively try using virtualdub or amarectv with a lossless format like lagarith, utvideo or huffyuv and see if that helps things.

[dellsam34]

The desktop software package that includes MediaExpress has an app for testing system resources, it will show you if your system is adequate for a given video resolution and codec, launch it and post a screenshot of the test here, But its self explanatory, green check mark means good to go, x means problems, It looks like this: