100 mins on a cd, possible ??

[banjazzer]

Just because you are a moderator doesn't mean you have to be reasonable. I can see that it would be possible to get source material which would be so demanding of bitrate throughout that 1150kbps would not be enough. In such circumstances, any lengthening of the time encoded would result in deterioration of quality. However, in real life encodes, much material can be encoded at significantly less than standard VCD quality. Yes, it will look inferior to SVCD or DVD, but that is not the issue. The fact is much of what is commonly encoded can be encoded to advantage at lower bitrate. This is evident theoretically, and borne out in fact. However, I do appreciate that there are always the exceptions to the rule.

To say that you can get more than 80 minutes on a (x)VCD is not to say that it will look like a SVCD. This is the point I think some people have missed. 8)

[adam]

Sorry banjazzer but I just don't see what SVCD has to do with any of this. If someone says they don't find sub vcd bitrates acceptable, or even that it looks awful, that doesnt mean they are comparing it to SVCD, or that they don't make vcds or that they are in some way biased. It is entirely possible for someone to find VCD quality acceptable and find xVCDS at VBR ~700-900kbits unacceptable, because they are most certainly not necessarily going to be equal in quality everytime. In fact, I would say that the majority of the time the VCD will probably look better because the more you lower your avg bitrate the less effective VBR encoding becomes.

If you are going to argue with every person who says an xVCD at 800kbits looks awful then you've got your work cut out for you, because I'm sure alot of people are of this opinion.

[pjo2000]

Hrmm, I can see where everyone is coming from, and personally I can tolerate the visual quality of a 120min non standard VCD.. and true it doesnt look hardly any different from a standard VCD.
I do use a trick however, before encoding, to squeeze that little bit of extra quality out of it.

or example, lets say a DVD rip.. using cladDVDxp, you can get your vobs, project file and frameserved all in one hit.. giving you an Audio file too.
This audio file is in most cases 48khz WAVE data.

Simply load this file into Soundforge (you might want a pc with at leat 1.8 ghz here)..

now select it all and go to the option RESAMPLE.

RESAMPLE TO 32khz with ANTI-ALIAS FILTER and APPLY.
30 mins later.. save the processed file.

This will give you a TOP quality sound file Undistinguishable from the DVD
all due to the ANTIALIASING. trust me it sounds great.

I originally started messing with this method due to TMPEG doing its own dodgy resample from 48khz to 44.1khz, which would create a horrible Tinny high pitched digital distortion everytime someone raised there voice in the movie. If you have been experiencing that problem.. its NOT your bitrate its the sampling rate.

You can resample and antialias to 32khz or (32000hz) and encode with a bitrate of 128kbps and the sound will be perfect. and it will give you the much needed space to increase the video bitrate.

and remember 800MB in Tmpeg = 700mb (80min disc) VCD in NERO
strange I know.

hope this info helps someone.

pjo2000

[banjazzer]

If you are going to argue with every person who says an xVCD at 800kbits looks awful then you've got your work cut out for you, because I'm sure alot of people are of this opinion.

It is possible that an xVCD at 800kbps can look awful, and probable that in many cases it will not look different from standard VCD. Everything is possible, but that doesn't make it fact. The reason I mention SVCD is because frequently it turns out that people who make disparaging statements about xVCD look at life through SVCD-tinted spectacles. They don't rate VCD, ergo low-bitrate VCD must be goddawful. Ah, yes, they saw an dire encode once, so they must all be awful. I don't make so many VCD encodes now, but I have made standard VCD, and xVCD with 100-120 minutes on. I use the evidence of my own eyes to make a quality judgement, so I know what is and is not possible. And I realise not always will you fit 120 minutes to one CD with equal quality

Many people come to these forums, see an unqualified, innacurate statement issued as fact, and go away thinking this must be true. This is not helped when moderators champion the right to make unqualified assertions, which happen to be more wrong than right. Of course people can say what they like, but I reserve the right to point out the errors in what people say, just as everyone else is at liberty to point out my errors. And, by the way, I won't get upset if I make a mistake and it is pointed out. 8)

[smurf]

ok,

i have read every post with very big interest, and check every source been given, and it has been very interesting, cause i have got so many replies, and i like it.

and yes, it has went wrong a bit, but, to get what i want, ill ask you to write again

ok, to make this clear, a oponion is a oponion, fact is fact, reality is reality, so, plz, separate this 3 things and try to answer, cause new things for me have come up

cbr, cvd, xVCD, CCE, pass2, pass6, like you might know, i read every reply with a very big interest, no reply is stupid, or wrong, so, just write, and ill open my eyes

and, a question at the side, what does bitrate do, is it how much data is played on a sec, or ?

thanx ppl, and, i really prisuate EVERY post,

[vitualis]

cbr, cvd, xVCD, CCE, pass2, pass6, like you might know, i read every reply with a very big interest, no reply is stupid, or wrong, so, just write, and ill open my eyes

bitrate
This means the rate of bits. That is, how much data the video+/-audio stream contains per unit of time. The unit we common talk about here with regards to VCDs/SVCDs is kilobits per second (kbit/s). The "kilo" in this term does actually mean 1000 (as opposed to "kilobyte" which refers to 1024 bytes).

CBR = constant bitrate
This means that the video+/-audio stream has the same number of bits per unit of time for the entire length. For example, VCD requires the video to be at 1150 kbit/s CBR.

CVD = China Video Disc
This refers to a somewhat obscure video disc format that was originally designed by C-Cube and was one of the putative formats to replace VCD. Eventually, the SVCD (super video CD) format came around, but SVCD compatible players are supposed to fully support CVD. If you search the forums for "CVD" you will find much more info about it (look out for the user "SatStorm" who has done much contribution in this area).

XVCD = ?extended VCD
Basically, it is a non-compliant VCD. Because DVD players tend to be quite flexible, you can often bend or exceed the actually format specifications of VCDs for one reason or another (e.g., to increase playtime, increase quality, etc.) These are all non-compliant and may not work on any specific player. These "non-compliant" settings based around "VCD" have generically been dubbed "XVCD". Similarly, a non-compliant SVCD has been generically been dubbed "XSVCD".
http://www.vcdhelp.com/vcd
http://www.vcdhelp.com/svcd

CCE = Cinemacraft Encoder
This is a commerical MPEG encoder. It is VERY expensive to purchase but public opinion is that it is one of the best if not the best software MPEG-2 encoders in existence.

2-pass
In VBR (variable bitrate) encoding (i.e., where the bitrate isn't fixed for the entire length but can go up and down), one mode is multipass encoding. This is where the MPEG encoder basically encodes/looks/analyses the video to encode a number of times. The benefit in doing this is that video quality will generally improve with each pass as bitrate allocation and motion search precision increases. The downside is that each additional pass requires more time. 2-pass means that the encoder encodes/looks/analyses the video to encode twice before the final encoded mpeg is produced.

6-pass
As above except the encoder goes through the video a total of 6 times before the final encoded mpeg is produced.

Regards.

[offline]

@ banjazzer: I also get peeved at how quickly some people (almost always the clueless variety) dismiss and deride a video template, format
or methodology just because they have not had the time, experience
or inclination to test said "method" under ideal conditions.

@ all

If anyone here makes a statement "xxy is crap" then that opinion
has to be weighed by others. While more experienced people may
consider the opinion to be open for qualification, others
less experienced may well see it is as a statement of fact.

To demonstrate, watch the weather report. The infomation provided
is only an educated guess based on computer amtospheric models. How many people (apart from farmers) take this information as fact or
act as if it is likely to be close to the fact? Most. Do you know the
accuracy of the reports - less than 70% for the 1st 24 hours, decreasing
to less than 30% for 7 day forcasts.

[AlanCake]

On a standard 80 min CD you can fit 110 mins of video. Lower the video bitrate to 900 and the audio to 128.

Quality??? Duhhh?

Can you hear the soundtrack/voices answer YES!
Can you see whats happening on screen answer YES!

In my experience 2 pass variable bit ratey things are a waste of time because they don't play very well. Stick to a low constant bitrate.

Alan

[adam]

frequently it turns out that people who make disparaging statements about xVCD look at life through SVCD-tinted spectacles. They don't rate VCD, ergo low-bitrate VCD must be goddawful. Ah, yes, they saw an dire encode once, so they must all be awful.

Ok fair enough but how could you possibly know why someone thinks the way they do? You cannot put yourself in the place of everyone who dislikes xVCD so why make assumptions? For all you know Digifreak may have dedicated the last 5 years of his life to low bitrate xVCD only to finally conclude that they are awful. Take people's opinion with a grain of salt, disagree if you must but assumptions only lead to arguments.

Quality??? Duhhh?

Can you hear the soundtrack/voices answer YES!
Can you see whats happening on screen answer YES!

Well to each his own but obviously there are many people who want to have more than just a movie that shows up on the screen.

[banjazzer]

Well adam, I know you like to have the last word, but it will need to something less disputable, unless you lock the thread immediately after posting.

For me offline has succinctly summed up my position about opinion proffered as fact, and the reasons why I feel obliged to challenge such.

For all you know Digifreak may have dedicated the last 5 years of his life to low bitrate xVCD only to finally conclude that they are awful.

Well, all things are possible. But with such a scenario, his statement might suggest he had rarely if ever turned out an xVCD of quality equal to VCD, or the conclusion should have been that they were often awful. And it would rather beg the question why it took 5 years to work this out? Then questions might also be asked about his competence to encode. 8)

Digifreak has been strangely quiet on the subject, having issued his throwaway statement. I suggest "I get better results using CCE 6 pass Image Quality Priority 10 than I do with TMPGEnc 2 pass using any templates. " rather more accurately reflects where he is coming from. 8)

[smurf]

alright ppl, i have looked after this prog. CCE, and cant find it anywhere to download (demo, shareware...), i want to try it, everyone say its GREAT

if anyone know where i can get it, pls, dont stand there and JUST read, WRITE,

have it nice,

GG smurf

[vitualis]

You can download the CCE demo from the CCE website: http://www.cinemacraft.com/eng/download.html#demo

Regards.

[smurf]

which is the best ?

LITE or SP



BTW, hope im not enoing,

[banjazzer]

Well, this thread was about 100 minutes on one CD. If you want to use CCE for VCD, not only will you have to make standard VCD (I believe), but it is not supposed to be very good for VCD.

Lite will only encode CBR.

[vitualis]

I couldn't agree more. CCE at VCD settings (MPEG-1 CBR 1150 kbit/s for video) produces rather poor quality video.

Regards.

[smurf]

ok, thanx, well, its true, the post has gone a bit to the left, , but i cant say i dont learn a lot,

thanx guys for your help, ill try on and if i cant do it, ill come back to you,

my vcd is a real vcd, so, ill just burn it, and hope itll work,

GG smurf

[adam]

Well, this thread was about 100 minutes on one CD. If you want to use CCE for VCD, not only will you have to make standard VCD (I believe), but it is not supposed to be very good for VCD.

With CCE you can make it as non-standard as you want, at least with 2.5 which I am using. You can encode in mpeg1 both in VBR as well as at just about any bitrate you want, (If average is under 500kbits I think you would have to apply the bitrate by hand in the advanced tab though, but that would be pretty ridiculous) so xVCD with 100 mins is definitely possible in CCE. I agree though, CCE doesn't encode to mpeg1 very well.

[banjazzer]

With CCE you can make it as non-standard as you want, at least with 2.5 which I am using.

So far as I can tell, VBR mpeg-1 is not possible with 2.64, or the latest version, 2.66.

[smurf]

hi again, hehe

well, cause none is answering on my post http://vcdhelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=115835
i have to write to my friends who cares of me so much,

im trying to put a subtitle on this vcd, did everything, put the filter in virtual dub, put frameserving, but when i open tempg and tries to open the .vbr file, it says it cannot open it, , damn

well, if youre intrested to help, dont stop, write on,

my icqnumber is : will come soon, :P

cause, it is maybe hard to explain, but, im here, hehe,

thanx guys,

[banjazzer]

im trying to put a subtitle on this vcd, did everything, put the filter in virtual dub, put frameserving, but when i open tempg and tries to open the .vbr file, it says it cannot open it,

No wonder. It should be a .vdr file if I recall correctly.

Somewhere in these forums is the answer, because I had the same problem once. It depends in getting a particular dll in your windows/system32 directory (I think). Maybe adam (who awaits my every post to pounce on inconsistencies) may know the answer? 8)