Is DVD an reliable option for video storage?

[pras92]

In order to clear up some space in my laptop, i'm planning on storing movies(about 100 GB) in DVD-R.
Most of these movies are in mkv and avi containers. My questions are:

1) I read somewhere that DVDs basically use MPEG as their default codecs (hell if i know what it means). So when i save my movies in DVD, will they lose their original codecs and thus lead to loss of quality? Because, i prefer mkv since, as of now, i've learnt that mkv is more advanced(?) in terms of quality when compared with MPEG.

2) Will using .iso before burning to DVD surpass the possible quality loss due to reasons in question (1)

3) A typical DVD-R says it can record 4.7GB or 120 minutes. I read in some forums that, if we try to burn more than 120 minutes by compressing (i prefer encoding) the size within 4.7GB, the video will result in quality loss while extracting it from the DVD. Is it true? I have a single mkv file of 1GB that runs about 4 hours, and yet it is of Very High quality. So, if i try to store this file in DVD, and after sometime i extract it, will it not have the same quality as the original? If not, why is this?

Thank You in advance!

[davexnet]

If you're interested in saving your movies as they are, without any conversion,
copy them in their existing formats. ie. write the DVD disk as data.

[Richard_G]

Think of DVD as two different things, a digital video file stored on a disc that can be played on a standalone DVD player or a storage medium. If it is regarded as a Digital Video Disc (DVD) then it must conform to the standard so will be an MPEG file. If you regard it as a storage medium capable of storing up to 4.7GB then you can put anything you like on it in any format you choose. I store music and picture files on DVD discs, simply because they can hold more than a CD and are cheaper than external hard drives.

As said, simply copy the files as they are onto discs as data files.

[JimJohnD]

When saving files (even video files) as a data disc you may want to use a DVD+R instead of a DVD-R. The DVD+R has better error correction.

[deadrats]

you could just pick up a cheap external hdd, for about $100 you can find a 1.5tb external drive, for about $50 you can get a 500gb external drive, for $6 you can get an 8gig thumb drive, there are much better storage solutions that optical media, especially when you consider that even with dual layer media you will need about 11 or so dvd-rw.

[aedipuss]

left in an unheated/uncooled storage area dvdr can die within a year. properly stored in a temp/humidity/light controlled area several years. but all blanks are different and i wouldn't count on retrieving anything if they are your only backup.

[Cornucopia]

When saving files (even video files) as a data disc you may want to use a DVD+R instead of a DVD-R. The DVD+R has better error correction.

Not true. At ALL. Has the SAME error correction as DVD-R, DVD+R, DVD-ROM, or even DVD-RAM. That's part of UDF 1.02 and the DVD-Video spec.

@OP in answer to your questions:

#1 - DVD-Video (the application spec) uses STRICTLY, ONLY MPEG2 (well, rarely also MPEG1) as it's video codec. Files that originated in other formats/codecs, when re-encoded to MPEG2 will lose SOME quality, regardless. Just how much loss depends mainly on the complexity of the material, the average bitrate chosen (along with a few other encoding specs) and ultimately on YOUR PERCEPTION of quality.
MKV is not a codec, it is a container (just like DVD-Videos use VOBs, aka MPEG2-super ProgramStreams, as containers). MKV could contain video with the MPEG2 codec in it (in which case a remux into MPEG2-PS would allow a lossless authoring to occur), or it could be uncompress, or losslessly compressed (e.g.: huffyuv) or use MPEG4. But these days, it most likely includes the h.264 codec. This codec isn't "BETTER" than MPEG2, it is just MORE EFFICIENT. This allows one to use it to compress to much smaller size or to retain a better quality with the same size, or some compromised combination of the 2, compared to something like MPEG2.
Also, MKV is NOT more "advanced" than MPEG. However, they are built for different purposes. MKV is a "general-purpose" container (so it has to include the possibility of features for all kinds of streams and stream compression types), whereas MPEG-PS or MPEG-TS is built to only allow certain "industry-standard" types of A+V codecs/streams (and occasionally subs/text streams) so that there is international CE compatibility. Recent changes in hardware capability have blurred both of these lines, but it is still true that an MPEG file is almost ALWAYS compatible with existing consumer players, wheras the same can't be said of all or even most MKV files.

#2 ISO is just a disc image. IOW, it is a "copy" of what would have been on the disc that is now encapsulated into a file. There will be no difference between it and the source disc (not counting encryption), nor a disc copy of an ISO, unless something is SERIOUSLY WRONG with the burning software.

#3 A DVD-R or a DVD+R (or RW versions of either) will hold ~ 4.37GB (not 4.7GB) on a Single Layer (SL) disc. This could = 120minutes, or 60 or 240, or 480! All depending upon the bitrate chosen. And that bitrate will also influence the quality in inverse proportion to the quantity. So a 60 min 4.37GB file will have a better quality than a 120 min 4.37GB file, which will have a better quality than a 240min. 4.37GB file (or any combination of files that add up to that amount). Any "quality loss" you create is done during the compression, not on the extraction or decoding.
Again you are comparing apples to oranges with the MKV file. So you have 1 hour (60 min.), but you don't say or don't know what is INSIDE the MKV (which is the important part). If this 1GB file is 60 min., that gives you a 2.72Mbps file. This is pretty nice for an SD file (assuming it's an SD file).

Rule #1: Filesize = Bitrate * Title Length
Rule #2: Anytime you convert (not just remux) via lossy codec, you Lose Quality. Again, how much loss depends on a lot of factors.
Rule #3: Ripping/Extraction is NOT the same thing as Ripping + Converting

Scott

[harishkumar09]

Hi Prashanth, you can store just about anything on a DVD. I store pictures, music, .mkv files. .avi files and just about anything. You can store anything on DVD that you can in your hard disk.

I usually store .mkv movies on Dual Layer DVDs. This gives more space, can hold at least three good movies on a DVD DL. Use Verbatim DVD+R DL disks as they are of the highest quality.

aedipuss, are you saying my backup DVD+R DLs wont last more than a year? I store them in DVD plastic folders, and I live in Bangalore, which has a temperature range of 15 Celsius - 26 Celsius.

But then I went for DVD+R DLs because the Ext HDD are very costly. I have one 1 TB Ext HDD, which I bought for $100 two years ago, and the price remains the same today, actually it has gone up to $110.

Only when the price of Ext HDD comes down to around $50, am planning to buy one of them and I may transfer the contents from DVD+R DLs to Ext HDD.

[harishkumar09]

you could just pick up a cheap external hdd, for about $100 you can find a 1.5tb external drive, for about $50 you can get a 500gb external drive, for $6 you can get an 8gig thumb drive, there are much better storage solutions that optical media, especially when you consider that even with dual layer media you will need about 11 or so dvd-rw.

Where? In which part of the universe? In the USA? May be!

But in India, 1 TB costs more than $100.

Its not viable, not for me, to buy 1 TB hard drives in India. I will wait for the prices to fall.

But then again when using Ext HDD aren't you putting too many eggs in one basket?

I think the DVD+R DLs are a safer option.

May be a better thing would be to go for 500 GB HDDs and buy more of these. Also helps to buy military grade ones, for long term archiving.

[yoda313]

But then again when using Ext HDD aren't you putting too many eggs in one basket?

I think the DVD+R DLs are a safer option.

Thats why I do both. I have stuff that I've gotten off the net on both dvdrs and an external hdd. That way I have two paths to get the material not just one.

Also helps to buy military grade ones, for long term archiving.

What do you mean by this? I would just go by ones that have the best reputation. As far as I know there isn't any such thing as a "military grade" harddrive. Or at least if there really is one us civilians wouldn't be able to get them.

[hech54]

When saving files (even video files) as a data disc you may want to use a DVD+R instead of a DVD-R. The DVD+R has better error correction.

Not true. At ALL. Has the SAME error correction as DVD-R, DVD+R, DVD-ROM, or even DVD-RAM. That's part of UDF 1.02 and the DVD-Video spec.

1000% agree. JimJohnD obviously doesn't know what he is talking about and/or still believes in Santa Claus.

[hech54]

Also helps to buy military grade ones, for long term archiving.

What do you mean by this? I would just go by ones that have the best reputation. As far as I know there isn't any such thing as a "military grade" harddrive. Or at least if there really is one us civilians wouldn't be able to get them.

harishkumar09 doesn't know what he means because he has no idea what he is talking about.

[yoda313]

harishkumar09 doesn't know what he means because he has no idea what he is talking about.

That is a possibility.

[El Heggunte]

Also helps to buy military grade ones, for long term archiving.

What do you mean by this? I would just go by ones that have the best reputation. As far as I know there isn't any such thing as a "military grade" harddrive. Or at least if there really is one us civilians wouldn't be able to get them.

Perhaps he meant water-proof and fire-proof HDDs.

[yoda313]

Perhaps he meant water-proof and fire-proof HDDs.

Ok I'll buy that.

Of course that doesn't make them any more durable as far as read-write cycles or longevity as far as data storage goes.

[usually_quiet]

I have heard of high-reliability enterprise hard drives for servers, intended to be used in a RAID configuration, but I never heard of a military grade hard drive before either. Apparently they do exist, at least as a marketing category for shock-resistant external drives:
http://www.amazon.com/Transcend-2-5-Inch-Military-Grade-Resistance-TS640GSJ25M3/dp/B00...ef=pd_sxp_f_pt
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822301001&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleAdword...FQHwzAodKGkANw
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822165431&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleAdword...FYq7zAod8T0AhA

[MOVIEGEEK]

I agree with using an external HDD, it's faster to transfer and possibly safer than a DVD. Cheap USB thumbdrives are another option.

As for JimJohnD comment regarding DVD+R, he might be referring to this article:
http://www.myce.com/article/why-dvdrw-is-superior-to-dvd-rw-203/#.UOMOnW92w-w

[deadrats]

there's a bunch of computer hardware designated as "military grade", i think it means that it's shock resistant (such as being dropped or run over), usually it's meant to be used by military and police units in the field, these parts usually cost and arm and a leg.

now unless you're planning on invading a neighboring country or getting into a fist fight with street gang or bear and plan on using a hard drive as your weapon of choice, i would say that military grade hardware in not for the average civilian.

unless of course you really, really value your porn, in which case you may be better off uploading your smut to a secure online storage locker.

[Cornucopia]

I agree with using an external HDD, it's faster to transfer and possibly safer than a DVD. Cheap USB thumbdrives are another option.

As for JimJohnD comment regarding DVD+R, he might be referring to this article:
http://www.myce.com/article/why-dvdrw-is-superior-to-dvd-rw-203/#.UOMOnW92w-w

Yeah, unfortunately, he missed a few things...
1. That article was written in back in 2003. Time has shown that the very few hardware differences between the 2 formats is inconsequential.
2. The "advantages" mentioned in the article mainly deal with when using the discs in Multi-session/Packet-writing style (aka "DLA"), not single session burning. Notice the whole "DVD+MRW" supposed advantage, which never really got off the ground.
3. Many of those "advantages" listed don't lean toward error correction, but more towards disc space efficiency (it could very well be that DVD+R/W is more efficient, but we would be talking about waste in the 0.00001% range - who cares!).

There is more, but that should be enough to dispell any BS about "superiority".

Scott

[Kerry56]

I think people underestimate the length of time a good dvd-r can be used as storage. After reading this thread I pulled out some of the oldest discs I have in my storage cabinet. One is a +R disc, MCC-002, made in Singapore, and burned 9+ years ago. It reads and scans as well as it ever did, with a perfect TRT and PIE max 12 and PIF max 4. I have little doubt it will last another five to ten years without deterioration if I continue to store it properly.

The other I tried is a Maxell, made in Japan, -R MXL RG02, burned in the spring of 2004, so about the same vintage. It has similar quality scores though very slightly higher total PIF. TRT scans and playback are flawless.

If you use good media, burn at a moderate speed, and store them properly, dvds work pretty well as one part of your backup strategy. But you should never rely on just one medium if the data is important, so I use hard drives too.

[nharikrishna]

prashanth,

You are confused between 'data on DVD Disc' and 'DVD-Video' format. A DVD disc can be used in both ways. If you store all your mkv and avi files as DATA, then no conversion is necessary. You can play the videos anytime by inserting the discs in your laptop's DVD drive. If you want to store the videos as DVD-Video (so that they can be played on set-top DVD player), then conversion is required (and will result in quality loss).

My suggestion would be to store the movies in DATA format on DVDs, and also place them (as back-up copies) on an external hard disk (500 GB). 500 GB hard disks are available for INR 3,000 these days. Use a media player (again, around INR 4,000) to play these movies on TV from the hard disk.

[harishkumar09]

I have a Transcend Storejet which states that it will survive a drop from 3-feet and in a forum dedicated to that brand I read that it conforms to some military standard. Basically what I meant was shock-resistant.

But I think shock and fire and water resistant HDDs do exist for robust requirements. I have heard there are even some tough tablets that are manufactured for use of personnel in harsh environments (too hot weather or it drizzles too often) out in the open. So it is possible to procure such robust HDDs.

Kerry56, are you suggesting the life of a DVD is not more than 15 years, correct me if I made a wrong estimate.

[Kerry56]

Kerry56, are you suggesting the life of a DVD is not more than 15 years, correct me if I made a wrong estimate.

No, I'm suggesting that given the evidence provided by my own backups and their lack of deterioration when stored properly, that my particular discs will last much longer than what many people are saying. Two to five years is commonly stated when talking about dvd recordable disc longevity, and I find this to be incorrect, at least in my experience. It is possible for poor quality discs to lose data in this span, but it really depends on the quality of the discs you start with, how well the discs match up with the firmware burning strategy, and how well you store them.

I cannot be certain that this lack of deterioration will continue, and there is no way for me to predict eventually longevity. But periodic tests show no issues so far. At least, not with my single layer dvds or Taiyo Yuden cds. Double layer dvds are another story. I've had some of them go bad. I always used Verbatim MKM 001 discs too, which are some of the best available. I have since stopped using DL dvd media.

And when I started burning blu ray, I bought into the popularity of the Ritek made discs when they first appeared. The Ritek BR2-000 mid code discs were far less costly than the Japanese made discs of the time, and no one was reporting issues burning them. Not too long after I bought some, the first reports of problems started popping up on the net. I sold my remaining blank discs and did tests on those I burned. There was nothing bad to report for the first few years, but a month or so ago, I tried playing one of those discs, and found it had deteriorated to the point it would not play completely. Of the 8 Ritek discs I had burned, 5 were completely unreadable, 2 were partially gone and only one could still play. All of those sold under the Memorex brand were toast. The one Ridata is still good, though a TRT scan shows some slowdowns near the edge. I suspect it will go sooner rather than later.

The Verbatim blu ray discs I burned during this same time period show no problems.

The moral of the story is that it is possible to use dvd recordables as a reasonably safe way of storing data, but only if you use the best quality discs which match up well to your particular drive, burn at moderate speed, and store them away from heat and excessive humidity. Storing them in dvd cases, standing on edge is also a good idea, or in the hanging sleeves you find in certain types of dvd storage boxes.

[harishkumar09]

Kerry56, are you suggesting the life of a DVD is not more than 15 years, correct me if I made a wrong estimate.

No, I'm suggesting that given the evidence provided by my own backups and their lack of deterioration when stored properly, that my particular discs will last much longer than what many people are saying. Two to five years is commonly stated when talking about dvd recordable disc longevity, and I find this to be incorrect, at least in my experience. It is possible for poor quality discs to lose data in this span, but it really depends on the quality of the discs you start with, how well the discs match up with the firmware burning strategy, and how well you store them.

I cannot be certain that this lack of deterioration will continue, and there is no way for me to predict eventually longevity. But periodic tests show no issues so far. At least, not with my single layer dvds or Taiyo Yuden cds. Double layer dvds are another story. I've had some of them go bad. I always used Verbatim MKM 001 discs too, which are some of the best available. I have since stopped using DL dvd media.

And when I started burning blu ray, I bought into the popularity of the Ritek made discs when they first appeared. The Ritek BR2-000 mid code discs were far less costly than the Japanese made discs of the time, and no one was reporting issues burning them. Not too long after I bought some, the first reports of problems started popping up on the net. I sold my remaining blank discs and did tests on those I burned. There was nothing bad to report for the first few years, but a month or so ago, I tried playing one of those discs, and found it had deteriorated to the point it would not play completely. Of the 8 Ritek discs I had burned, 5 were completely unreadable, 2 were partially gone and only one could still play. All of those sold under the Memorex brand were toast. The one Ridata is still good, though a TRT scan shows some slowdowns near the edge. I suspect it will go sooner rather than later.

The Verbatim blu ray discs I burned during this same time period show no problems.

The moral of the story is that it is possible to use dvd recordables as a reasonably safe way of storing data, but only if you use the best quality discs which match up well to your particular drive, burn at moderate speed, and store them away from heat and excessive humidity. Storing them in dvd cases, standing on edge is also a good idea, or in the hanging sleeves you find in certain types of dvd storage boxes.

Hmmm, thanks for the advice. Personally, I prefer Ext HDD, but given their high costs, and they have remained the same, especially after the Thailand floods, I think I will be tied to DVD+R DLs for some time to come, as they are cheaper ( I can buy only as much as I want) and hold a good amount of data.

But I will make sure to transfer all the data to a HDD once their prices come down. I hope it does.

Ext HDDs are one storage media whose prices have failed to come down by half with each progressing year, unlike others like Pendrives (their prices halve every six months) and even Blank DVDs.

I think the day will come when the price per GB of pendrive will be the same or cheaper than price per GB of HDDs.

[orsetto]

harishkumar09, forgive me, but what part of the repeated warning "DVD+DL is not recommended for long term storage" are you not hearing and understanding? You keep circling back to DL, and its just a bad idea for archive storage. Most DL is very unstable and poorly made, Verbatim +DL is the best of a bad lot but recordable DL on the whole has turned out to be a bust. It is fine for making temporary copies of long movies that are published as DL commercial DVDs, but otherwise useless. Forget the capacity advantage: you don't really save money or space by using one DL instead of two SL discs, and the SL discs are far more reliable in storage (esp Verbatim AZO, esp in climates like India). If you are very very intent on having maximum capacity per disc, forget DVD-DL and buy a BluRay burner to burn BluRay data discs. One SL BD can hold the contents of nearly six SL DVDs, and BD uses a more inorganic dye layer that is more archival: theoretically, more archival than DVD.

The whole point of burning optical discs is to have a completely different yet still reliable alternative backup to HDD archives. To this day, no one has managed to design a HDD that can be relied on for extended long term storage. "Military Grade" and "Tough Grade" merely means "resistant to external physical abuse": internally, HDD is still HDD, subject to unpredictable data corruption (cosmic rays, earth's magnetic field, random luck), mechanical failure, and obsolescence of connection standards. A 500GB portable HDD seems like a fantastic miniature data archive, until minor corruption kills 500GB worth of your videos. Optical discs are arguably more or less archival than magnetic media, but at least you spread the risk across multiple discs. HDD + DVD (or BD) is a good double storage strategy, they each have an advantage the other lacks.

[pras92]

Thank You all guys, for your opinions.
And sorry for my late reply, i was having a issue with my computer.

@Cornucopia I'm sorry, i'm still confused. I'll rephrase a part of my question.
I have a bunch of video files(20 files) which on total is about 3 GB in size and the total runtime is 16 hours. They are of very good quality (and is in mkv format, if that concerns). I want to store these in a DVD-R without any quality loss. I don't want to compress or convert it. So i won't be needing https://www.videohelp.com/tools/HuffYUV right? So, how do you suggest do this?
Right now, i'm thinking of burning the disc at the slowest speed rate possible, which might reduce errors i believe. Am i right?
Is the windows 7 default burning software sufficient or do you suggest using a different software.
I'm not going to use it in any other media players, other than my computer. So, how do i burn it as a Data disc? Just a normal burning method, or is there any option i need to apply to do this?

P.S.: I'm not interested in HDD right now.

[pras92]

prashanth,

You are confused between 'data on DVD Disc' and 'DVD-Video' format. A DVD disc can be used in both ways. If you store all your mkv and avi files as DATA, then no conversion is necessary.

Yes, i was confused between those two options, not anymore thanks to you.
Actually, i didn't mention anything about conversion. I thought that even if i burned a video as a Data file, it will automatically be converted into a MPEG codec, which might result in quality loss.

As for the HDDs, i'm planning on buying it after some time, since i'll be needing them later for different purpose. So, DVD option is sufficient for now.
Thank You for your views.

[pras92]

I think people underestimate the length of time a good dvd-r can be used as storage.
If you use good media, burn at a moderate speed, and store them properly, dvds work pretty well as one part of your backup strategy.

How do you suggest to store them properly? Placing them in their original spindle at room temperature and without touching them is enough, right?
I read somewhere that placing the discs vertically rather than horizontally helps acheive a longer life. Is it true?

[pras92]

If you're interested in saving your movies as they are, without any conversion,
copy them in their existing formats. ie. write the DVD disk as data.

Thank You Dave

Think of DVD as two different things, a digital video file stored on a disc that can be played on a standalone DVD player or a storage medium. If it is regarded as a Digital Video Disc (DVD) then it must conform to the standard so will be an MPEG file. If you regard it as a storage medium capable of storing up to 4.7GB then you can put anything you like on it in any format you choose. I store music and picture files on DVD discs, simply because they can hold more than a CD and are cheaper than external hard drives.

As said, simply copy the files as they are onto discs as data files.

Thank You Richard! So i guess i'll go with the Data Disk option. In this case, shouldn't i be worrying about the 120 minutes limit?

[deadrats]

The whole point of burning optical discs is to have a completely different yet still reliable alternative backup to HDD archives. To this day, no one has managed to design a HDD that can be relied on for extended long term storage. "Military Grade" and "Tough Grade" merely means "resistant to external physical abuse": internally, HDD is still HDD, subject to unpredictable data corruption (cosmic rays, earth's magnetic field, random luck), mechanical failure, and obsolescence of connection standards. A 500GB portable HDD seems like a fantastic miniature data archive, until minor corruption kills 500GB worth of your videos. Optical discs are arguably more or less archival than magnetic media, but at least you spread the risk across multiple discs. HDD + DVD (or BD) is a good double storage strategy, they each have an advantage the other lacks.

are you on drugs? i'm being serious, do you engage in recreational drug use? regardless of whether the answer is yes or no i strongly recommend you get help and fast, you are a very sick individual.

wow, one has to wonder what is jiggling in someone's head for them to believe that a HDD used as backup, i.e. only operational during the backup process, you suffer from "unpredictable data corruption" due to cosmic rays, the earth's magnetic field, random luck, etc.

that's just too damn funny, not to mention sad that the poster is actually being serious.