RDR-VX500 won't copy VHS-DVD

[Hili]

I've got a RDR-VX500 which works perfectly, except for copying VHS tapes to DVD. I've tried everything in the manual but nothing works.
I can see on the front of the unit that it's recording, but when I check the DVD, it's blank. I have no idea what's wrong, but either the manual is incorrect, or it's something else. Is it possible that I have to initialize the DVD - but there's no control or procedure for that listed??

I've sent the unit to Sony for repair/checking and they've told me that it needs $681 in repairs!!! That's ridiculous, so I told them to send it back - that way it costs me "only" $110.

[jman98]

I'm going to give it you straight. You're not going to like it, but learn from your experience.

There is some chance that the unit may be defective or that you aren't doing something right or are using bad media. However, it's more likely the following.

DVD recorder/VCR combos are rather infamous for NOT recording VHS tapes. If it's a commercial tape, you'll never be able to record it because the Macrovision on the tape to prevent copying will trigger a mechanism on the DVD recorder to prevent recording. If it's a homemade tape you still may not be able to record it because defects in the recording may cause the DVD recorder to think it's a Macrovision protected tape and not record it either.

You need to understand that Sony is the most schizophrenic company on the planet. Half the company sincerely wants to make consumer electronics that are good and useful. Unfortunately the other half of the company is the media company that has its tentacles in the audio recording and motion picture industry. THAT half of Sony honestly believes that EVERY person on the planet, including YOU, is a potential thief waiting to steal their stuff. So Sony electronics are always less useful than those made by other companies because the media half forces the electronics half to make them not work if there is even a 1% chance it could be used for "piracy". I am not joking about that. You've got the evidence yourself that I'm right.

In the future...
1) Do NOT buy combos. Buy separate units as there is a way, if necessary, to help the DVD recorder to record your tapes by using a TBC (time base corrector) between the VCR and the DVD recorder. You cannot use a TBC with a combo unit.
2) Do NOT buy Sony. Period. I also strongly discourage people from buying Samsung DVD and BluRay players although their other products seem OK. Samsung and Sony make the most consumer unfriendly DVD and BluRay players on the planet.

[orsetto]

There are several possibilities, but these would be difficult to figure without knowing your past history with this unit. The RDR-VX500 is a 2004 model, and that was a period when Sony was known to make the most picayune recorders on earth which would complain of disc problems with 4 out of 5 new blank discs. This problem only gets worse as time passes.

What is your previous experience with using it to dub VHS to DVD? Has it worked fine in the past but failed recently? Or have you just never gotten around to actually trying a VHS>DVD dub until now? This question is important: if tape dubbing worked in the past but only failed recently, the problem is either the blank discs you have now or the unit has finally just broken down from age. If you have never tried the dubbing until last week, it could also be that you aren't operating it correctly (unlikely, since this machine was known for easy VHS>DVD feature). Or, as jman88 advised, the unit will not dub Hollywood tapes at all: if you are trying to convert a studio tape to DVD, no recorder will permit it. Although they usually put an alert onscreen to tell you Copy Protected Video or CANNOT COPY- I've never heard of a recorder going thru the motions and counting down the minutes while not recording.

Sony service centers are not terribly helpful, as Sony became actively hostile against repairing units more than two years old quite awhile ago. Sony service centers have been instructed to quote outrageous prices for post-warranty service, so they can avoid dealing with repairs altogether in hopes you might just buy a newer recorder. Ordinarily one could safely assume your RDR-VX500 has simply broken down, since the service center did confirm the unit as defective and quoted you a repair price. But given Sony's known reluctance to bother with repairs, your recorder may actually be fine and it might be just user error or bad blank discs. The RDR-VX500 was designed for 8x speed blank Rs and 2.4x RWs, which can't be found in stores anymore. You can buy them online, but they aren't cheap, and if the recorder is really broken then you'll be stuck with the discs. Kind of a "chicken or the egg" problem.

DVD recorders are disposable products that rarely last more than 3-4 years before total breakdown (mostly due to burner drive failure). Yours could be dying of old age, or just getting more cranky about what blanks it will burn. What happens when you try to record from TV to DVD? Do you still end up with an unrecorded disc, or does that work just fine? If you can get normal recordings off the TV onto DVD, then the burner is OK and your blank discs are good. The problem would then be isolated to the VCR>DVD dubbing circuit, in which case you'll need a new recorder. You would also likely need a new recorder if the unit will not record from TV either.

Sorry for all the questions, but you'd be surprised to know that 80% of of DVD/VHS recorder owners never actually use the DVD to record, they mostly use it as a combination player. Years later, when they get around to their first attempt at DVD recording or VHS dubbing, they discover those features have "died" (yup, these things wear out from age whether or not you use the recording feature). Depending on when you bought it, your RDR-VX500 is between 6-8 years old: ancient in recorder years (which are like dog years).

[Hili]

Thank you both for your comments. What I'm trying to do is dub my old personal VHS tapes to DVD. I've not tried this before, but I've learned that, since VHS tapes degrade with time, converting them to DVD will essentially archive them. I should also say that Sony repair did not tell me that the unit was defective - only that it would take $681 to "fix it". Needless to say, I've told them to return it to me - that way the cost is "only" $110. I can buy another unit that only does dubbing if you can recommend a good consumer-grade one. I can use the Sony for everything else. I don't know if it will record DVDs from my TV - I've never tried that, but will do so as soon as Sony returns mine. Will it prove that there's nothing wrong with my unit if it works?

[lordsmurf]

Combo units generally do not record VHS to DVD.
They were designed for VHS or DVD use -- never together. Spacing savings was all they were good for.

Even on models that do allow VHS > DVD, the quality tends to be very substandard.
Outright crappy, to be blunt and honest.

[jman98]

Magnavox is essentially the only manufacturer left of DVD recorders in the USA and Canada. Please note that Magnavox has an exclusive deal with Wal-Mart for their units and both parties manipulate this to drive up prices periodically. Rumors leak out all the that Magnavox is going to abandon the marketplace in the next few months, so Wal-Mart and eBay listers respond by doubling the prices of the units, which makes people think that the rumors are true and panic buying sets in. Magnavox and Wal-Mart have a good laugh and say "Suckers!" and then rumor says that due to the increased interest in their players, Magnavox is not leaving the marketplace after all and prices return to normal and reasonable levels for a while. Rinse, repeat.

I checked a few weeks ago and I'm too lazy to check now, but the last time I looked you could get one of the Magnavox DVD recorders from Wal-Mart for about what you're going to pay to get your unit shipped back to you and you'd have a better recorder. But there are no VHS capabilities with Magnavox's recorders.

As someone who has recently done some VHS captures to my PC using very good equipment I can tell you that under the best of circumstances VHS tape is a pretty crappy way to store video. I've really had to lower my expectations and accept that what I am recording is "better than nothing" and honestly the only way to get the material (it's some old TV shows never released to DVD).

[Hili]

What about the Magnavox ZV427MG9 DVD Recorder/VCR Combo, HDMI 1080p Up-Conversion, No Tuner?? That one is sold by Amazon and Walmart, ands supposedly does have VHS ability. Again, supposedly, it will dub both ways - from VHS to DVD and the reverse.

[jman98]

lordsmurf is overstating his case to try to get you to pay attention. Unfortunately it seems to not be working. So I will try a more direct approach.

If you buy a combo unit you do so with the understanding that you may not be able to record some, most or all of your VHS tapes. Period. You trade convenience for the huge risk that you won't be able to record your tapes and you can't do anything about it if that is the case. Combo units are sold with the strong hint that you'll be able to use them to easily copy videotapes to DVD, but the reality is that such is very hit and miss.

The ONLY way that works reliably is to have separate VCR and DVD recorder units with the understanding that you may also have to invest in a TBC to put between the VCR and DVD recorder to stabilize your video tapes so that the stupid DVD recorder does its job and actually records them. Hollywood demanded that DVD recorders be overly sensitive to imperfections in videotapes and that they basically refuse to record if the least little problem occurs because (gasp!) being a consumer you are probably a dirty pirate and you're trying to record video tapes when you should be buying DVD copies instead. Of course this overlooks the fact that you may have home made movies on those tapes or that there may not be any DVD copies of the material available, but that's the reality of the situation. Legally Hollywood can't forbid the manufacture of DVD recorders, but they're under no legal obligation to make it easy to use them and the manufacturers mostly do whatever Hollywood wants.

[classfour]

Current VHS>>>DVD work flow: VHS (Panasonic AG-1980)>>>TBC (if needed - DataVideo TBC1000)>>>Color Corrector (if needed - BVP4+)>>>PC (Hauppauge PVR250 Capture Card)

Capture MPEG2 at DVD quality. Original Source (VHS) isn't all that great, so I do not capture at HD resolutions - others do, and it's their choice.

Previous efforts using DVD Recorders (various ones) were of obviously less quality than using this process chain.

Good Luck!

[orsetto]

The practical truth for the "everyday consumer" lies somewhere in the middle of all these points of view. Much depends on how much you value these tapes, how often you'll actually watch the DVD dubs, how picky you are about ultimate quality, how much you can afford to spend in money/time/effort, and your technical skill.

The most predictable, reliable and quick results come from using a separate VCR and DVD/HDD recorder. This will not give better-quality results than a DVD/VHS combo, but it is much more reliable, controllable, and flexible. You dub the tapes from VCR to the HDD storage of the recorder. Once dubbed, it is very simple to edit out commercials or dead spots on the HDD, and then you can make a high speed copy from the HDD to the DVD in about 15 mins. If anything goes wrong while burning the DVD, you still have the videos on the HDD and can just load another blank DVD. You can make multiple copies of the same videos quickly and easily, as backups or to give to friends/family. Cost wise, this setup is midrange. You can use the VCR built into your Sony,or pick up a nice mint-condition Panasonic vcr for $20 at any thrift store or garage sale, even Craig's List or eBay. Such "typical" decent VCRs will give you ordinary playback quality, meaning the DVD copies will look exactly like the tape does when played on your TV. If you are satisfied with that, and many many people are, you don't need a fancier VCR or additional processing boxes like a TBC. For the DVD/HDD recorder, the only available options right now are the recently-discontinued Magnavox units. Refurbished (like-new repacks) of the model 513 and model 515 can be occasionally found for approx $200. By late September, the new model 533 should be available from WalMart website for around $279-329. These units include 16:9 DTV tuners and huge hard drives (HDDs) which can hold the contents of 60 or so VHS SP tapes. This allows you to arrange TV episodes or clips in correct order before making the DVDs, very handy if you have related recordings scattered on multiple tapes.

To get "better-quality" DVD copies from VHS requires an investment in hardware, and a learning curve. People here use varying combinations of expensive VCRs with built-in TBC/DNR circuits, with DVD recorders or PC video accessories and software. The basic improvements of a TBC/DNR vcr don't require any skill, the circuit automagically clears up graininess and noise lines in the video (most noticeable in large areas of color like red). The drawback is that all of these fancier VCRs are discontinued, most are really old and worn out, and newer models are in the $300-400 range. Repairs on a worn-out VCR can cost upwards of $200. Coupled with a DVD/HDD recorder, you can get some nicer-quality dubs to DVD, but it will cost you $. To get really significant improvements, the hard-core video buffs eschew DVD recorders altogether in favor of PC capture cards and video editing/processing/authoring software. This again adds more cost, but offers no benefit unless you are the technical type with innate talent for understanding the software. With the right tweaks and adjustments, you can squeeze dramatically better quality from your VHS tapes, but you really need to know what you're doing: otherwise there's no payoff. Dubbing to a computer often requires an expensive TBC accessory, as computer video boards can be way more oversensitive to VHS imperfections than the average DVD recorder.

Circling back to where you started, we have the DVD/VHS combo recorders. These are the cheapest solution, and arguably the most convenient if all you want is a straight-up copy of your tapes. Unfortunately they don't always work as expected, as others here have mentioned. The internal connection between DVD and VCR can be flakey and unreliable, and these units often hallucinate and assume your personal tapes recorded off TV or camcorder are really Hollywood tapes. If they think your tape is commercial, they won't copy it, and since the units are self-contained you have no way to patch in a "black box" to work around the issue. Most of these combos were poorly-made, with flimsy VCRs that don't play tapes well and DVD sections that crap out. Still, despite all these problems, a large enough percentage of consumers express enough satisfaction to make them the default choice (and by far the most popular configuration of DVD recorder). A DVD/VHS combo unit CAN work adequately for many people, but you need to be aware of possible glitches and faults: there will always be some tapes the unit won't be able to copy, and they are prone to sudden-death breakdown syndrome.

The Magnavox ZV427MG9 DVD Recorder/VCR Combo you saw at WalMart is typical: overpriced for what it offers and may not be 100% useful for your particular tapes. The advantage of WalMart is the extremely liberal return/refund policy: you could probably use it until it breaks, then return it for a new one or refund. (And their current $155 price is $30 less than usual.) You could try it for a few weeks, and if it proves unworkable exchange it for the new Magnavox MDR533 DVD/HDD unit when it becomes available this fall. You could connect the VCR output of your Sony RDR-VX500 to the inputs of the Magnavox 533, and dub your tapes that way. If that still isn't good enough, then you'll have to jump into the deeper waters of dubbing to the PC.

[Hili]

Well - to does seem that I'm now getting over my head. All I want to do is to copy probably 100 old personal tapes!! It's probably best if I wait to buy the new Magnavox when it come out and hook the Sony to it when it come back as you suggest. After all, the Sony will play the VHS tapes.

Thanks for all the good information and suggestions!!

[lordsmurf]

T Such "typical" decent VCRs will give you ordinary playback quality, meaning the DVD copies will look exactly like the tape does when played on your TV.

But that's simply NOT true.

Why?
(A) because of how noisy the VHS tape signal is
(B) because of how MPEG-2 compression is achieved
(C) because of how inferior DVD recorder MPEG compression tends to be

Those three things give you an image that is WORSE than the original tape.
There's really no reliable way -- NONE WHATSOEVER -- to get identical tape quality on a DVD.
You can either
(A) make it better, or
(B) make it worse.

The fact of that matter is that home DVD recorders were made for replacing VCRs -- not copying tapes to DVD.
And then "combo units" were made to
(A) play old tapes, and
(B) record to DVD from TV.

In order to use DVD recorders as a transfer device, you need
(A) a high-quality VCR to clean up and filter the image quality, thus allowing quality MPEG compression, and
(B) a TBC in most cases, to properly stabilize the signal, so that the unit will record with rejecting your tape as "copy protected" (even when it's really not).

Converting videos requires more hardware than you can find at Walmart or Best Buy. It's a far more expensive endeavor than some would like, and does carry a fairly steep learning curve to achieve. That's why you can either
(A) pay a reputable conversion service, which will long-term be cheaper and look better
(B) spend lots of funds and time on learning how to properly convert video

I don't wish to seem aggressive here, but let's not accidentally mislead people on what's possible.

[orsetto]

T Such "typical" decent VCRs will give you ordinary playback quality, meaning the DVD copies will look exactly like the tape does when played on your TV.

But that's simply NOT true.

Why?
(A) because of how noisy the VHS tape signal is
(B) because of how MPEG-2 compression is achieved
(C) because of how inferior DVD recorder MPEG compression tends to be

Those three things give you an image that is WORSE than the original tape.
There's really no reliable way -- NONE WHATSOEVER -- to get identical tape quality on a DVD.
You can either
(A) make it better, or
(B) make it worse.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

I understand the points you are trying to make, but sometimes you don't see the forest for the tree because you so firmly believe in absolutes of quality. That's admirable, and I can only wish to know half of what you do on this subject, but in terms of consumer expectations you are often not on the same page. There is no one on this forum more fanatical about their video collecting hobby than me, I've blown every penny I've earned since I was 18 (and I'm 51 now) on VCRs and blank tapes over the years. I spent decades pulling my hair out over the inability of most VHS gear to make recordings that don't look like a weak imitation of the original signal. I've blown thru more VCRs and DVD/HDD recorders than I care to admit, and I've worked in post-production houses. So I get where your coming from with the perfectionism, I really do.

But I firmly disagree with the old saw that a DVD recorder "can't" make a DVD copy of a VHS tape that looks exactly like the tape "because the encoder is inherently incapable of properly dealing with the analog tape noise." Using a typical VCR that isn't total crap, and a passable DVD recorder (preferably with HDD) that isn't total crap, the typical SP tape recorded off the typical television broadcast will copy over to DVD with very little noticeable loss to the average consumer on the average TV. Don't misunderstand me: when I say the DVD will look just like the tape, I'm not claiming it will look great or even good: just that it won't look dramatically worse. If the tape has luma grain and noise, and streaks of color noise thru large blocks of red, and has the usual overall diffuse look of VHS, this will all be reproduced faithfully: I'm not saying its pretty.

But its a bit of an exaggeration to claim the DVD copy will look "far worse" than the original tape: a Pioneer DVR-550, JVC DRM100, Toshiba XS35 or Magnavox 513 is quite capable of closely matching the original tape quality. VHS plays tolerably well on a Sony CRT Trinitron but looks poor on a Sony 32" EX500 LCD and gawdawful on a 50" flatscreen. A DVD recorder copy of the tape will look either very slightly worse or very slightly better depending how the encoder interprets the background video noise of the tape. But the baseline appearance of VHS is what it is, and much depends on the pickiness of the individual consumer: if they are satisfied with how the original tape looks playing on their TV, the VHS copy made on a DVD recorder can't really disappoint. That POV is entirely different from yours, LS, but that doesn't mean its wrong: it just means you aren't the typical consumer.

Now, if the person asking about digitizing VHS expresses *dis-satisfaction* with how their original tapes look on their TV, and is seeking advice on how to make it look less prehistoric compared to the digital video we've all become accustomed to, then I'm in total agreement with everything you said above. Such a person will not be pleased with a bare-bones transfer made with a DVD recorder, not because the DVD copy is bad but because it isn't an improvement in any way. The copy made by a decent DVD recorder is usually pretty faithful to the original tape, warts and all. One can debate whether some recorders are better than others, especially new vs older models, but on average what goes in is what comes out.

To be extra clear, I'm referring specifically to tapes recorded from a good clean off-air signal or very clean camcorder tapes, done at the SP speed. These pose no particular challenge to any passable VCR or DVD recorder. Tapes made from analog cable TV, copy-protected Hollywood tapes, SLP tapes, second-generation tapes, and bootleg concert videos are in a different class, and results with these can be totally random: in regards to these I would tend to agree with you that a DVD recorder and ordinary VCR will make an unsatisfactory or possibly unwatchable copy. At the bare minimum. I've found such tapes require a high-end SVHS or DVHS with TBC/DNR, sometimes an external TBC and proc-amp, or perhaps even farming them out to a professional like yourself for extensive PC filtering.

I don't wish to seem aggressive here, but let's not accidentally mislead people on what's possible.

I don't think you're aggressive, I think you fervently want everyone to achieve the best possible digitization of their VHS collection. I completely respect that your eyes see what they see, and the results from a DVD recorder will rarely satisfy you. But I don't think I'm misleading anyone: if a person presents a very casual question about dubbing their VHS library, and doesn't remotely express dissatisfaction with how those tapes already look on their TV, I do believe it is accurate to tell them their DVD recorder will make adequate copies. Canvassing friends and family, or a quick perusal of review sites from Amazon to WalMart, indicates consumers are largely pleased with DVD recorder copies of their VHS. Do I think a DVD/VHS combo recorder is the "best" way to go? Not by a long shot. But at this late stage, its what most people who post to AV sites want to use, and their most common complaint is they can't get the machine to physically work. They aren't complaining about quality of the copies at all: they're complaining about undiagnosed user error or design flaws in the combo units.

If the person complains their DVD recorder copies look like crap on their 50" TV, thats a different story altogether. My response would be to either lower their expectations, or consult LordSmurf for tips on which PC input board to buy and how to use AVIsynth filters.

[lordsmurf]

My VHS conversions look awesome at 60"

[Hili]

Just as information, and to reinforce prior comments re: Sony

Sony sent back my VCR and, as far as I can tell, didn't even look at it. Since I didn't get a written evaluation I called the repair center, and finally got a guy who claimed that the unit was broken, the case was damaged, the circuit board was cracked, etc. No way! It looked exactly the same as when I sent it out - no marks, no indication of taking the unit apart, etc. I asked for a written summary of their findings, and was told that the tech's evaluation was " an internal document" and could not be released. The only saving grace about the entire episode is that Sony didn't charge me for the "examination." I now also believe that Sony simply doesn't want to have anything to do with repairing the unit, hence the $681 estimate to repair it. That's the last time I buy* anything * Sony!!

[jman98]

Sorry about your experience, but lots of us have abandoned Sony. About the only thing they make that I still like is their digital cameras. Sony long ago stopped being about producing quality products. The media conglomerate half of the company (the part that makes and distributes movies and music) began to assert control over the rest of the company and since then Sony has basically viewed all consumers as potential thieves who need to be stopped. You are probably right that they named a sky high price to discourage you, but figured if you were dumb or desperate enough to pay it, they'd just grab a spare unit they have in storage and send that to you at a huge profit rather than actually try to fix yours.

[davideck]

if a person presents a very casual question about dubbing their VHS library, and doesn't remotely express dissatisfaction with how those tapes already look on their TV, I do believe it is accurate to tell them their DVD recorder will make adequate copies.

Furthermore, if they playback on the same VCR used during record, then that can provide a picture quality advantage over a conversion service. If their DVD Recorder has good TBC performance (as many do), then that can result in DVDs that look better than the original tapes. All of mine do. It's certainly worth a try. Not to mention avoiding the uncertainties of mailing away their master tapes.

My VHS conversions look awesome at 60"

Mine look awesome at even closer distances.