Trying to solve video conversion flicker

[OldNick]

But I have used every codec that I can try and not just in Adobe or Corel.. I have used huge bitrates (18000 etc). As I said what you see are just what I did this time.

Given that I see this same problem every day on TV, and my wife says she only notices it if I point it out (but she can see it, I am not mad...welll...not about this....although this is starting to drive me further) I wonder if it's just what happens and nobody notices or cares.

It's just that what comes out of the camera is so smooth. Pana's own programme can do a DVD that is just as smooth.

And it almost does not matter what bitrate I use in HB, it looks better than what comes out of the other programmes.

I will see if I can dl a full trial of Adobe Premiere. hate to think of what it costs, but if I cannot find a half decent editor that gives me smooth output.

[poisondeathray]

But I have used every codec that I can try and not just in Adobe or Corel.. I have used huge bitrates (18000 etc). As I said what you see are just what I did this time.

But you are either using the wrong settings (25p) or the program doesn't support it. When you have 1/2 the frames thrown out right off the bat it's going to look worse isn't it ? Regardless of compression type or bitrate

Search for how use 1080p50 properly in VS e.g. Did you try this ?
http://forum.corel.com/EN/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=42138&start=30
http://forum.corel.com/EN/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45251

It's just that what comes out of the camera is so smooth. Pana's own programme can do a DVD that is just as smooth.

Exactly. And using the term "Smoothess" , people will usually refer to the frame rate, and unique frames (no duplicates) . In that case it's the temporal resolution ie. 50p or 50i vs. 25p

You can get similar results as the original video with free programs based on x264, I'm 100% certain.

But for editors, I'm not sure if they all support 1080p50 , it looks like the settings you are using are cutting that in half, so you get the 25p strobing . I'm 100% certain you can get similar results to the original in Premiere Pro and Vegas Pro (because I use those)

I get the impression that what you call "flickering" is from compression artifacts - they are visible in all your samples (even the handbrake ones) because they are poorly encoded. Try using x264 with either a higher bitrate or lower CRF value (I think handbrake calls it quality level) . h.264 has inloop deblocking, which will reduce those artifacts

[OldNick]

This one is 25fps . So either handbrake screwed up, or Elements screwed up. More likely Elements. I don't know if Elements supports 1080p50 . I think you need to make a custom sequence preset

Ok. I did do a custom setup and have been I asked for Same as Source and Adobe gave me 25fps. I cannot choose 50fps as such. This seems to be the same for all programmes. I have tried.

However, _somewhere_ I did actually ask for 50fps and it still flickered.

[poisondeathray]

This one is 25fps . So either handbrake screwed up, or Elements screwed up. More likely Elements. I don't know if Elements supports 1080p50 . I think you need to make a custom sequence preset

Ok. I did do a custom setup and have been I asked for Same as Source and Adobe gave me 25fps. I cannot choose 50fps as such. This seems to be the same for all programmes. I have tried.

However, _somewhere_ I did actually ask for 50fps and it still flickered.

Asking for 50 and getting 50 aren't necessarily the same

Did you check mediainfo on the exported file? Was is it really 50p ? If it was, then upload that video here or another site. (Because if it was 50p and still what you call "flicker" then we can narrow down the issue)

In Elements, you would probably have to make a custom sequence preset (there probably isn't a bundled one) - assuming it allows you - the "consumer" editors are usually limited - and custom export settings

For VS, check the links in my previous post - it looks like you have to do some custom things as well

[OldNick]

OK. I asked for 50fps in Corel, and NO COMPRESSION (I do not get access to x264). The file is 289mb for 6 seconds...and it looks exactly the same as the trouble in other ones. This is on two different machines remember, over dozens of efforts.

I am really mad that Adobe elements does what it does. That is just sick.

Here are the codecs I can choose in Corel

[poisondeathray]

Try a small sample in xvid and check the export with mediainfo to see if you're getting 50p

It looks like you're using AVI export (VFW or video for windows) . You would normally look under MP4 export for h.264

You can install x264vfw, and it should show up in the AVI export menu for most programs (you have to restart the program)



Here are some threads that allow for 1080p50/60 in Elements
http://forums.adobe.com/thread/912027
http://forums.adobe.com/message/4021810#4021810

I have no idea if they work or will work on the trial version

[OldNick]

I have dld that link you gave me and I can now get x264 in AVI. I cannot use mpeg in Corel, because it just gives no options, assuming everything is just NTSC DVD or PAL DVD

In Corel when I ask for 50fps I get 50fps according to mediainfo. And yes it does still flicker as I said.

I looked at those threads you linked to, thanks. However they do not seem to refer to the fact that even if you ask for 1080 50p you get 25p.

Here is one using that codec. 50fps reported. 12000 bit rate. I hope this helps.

There is a big difference, to me, between the 25fps flicker and what I am seeing.

[OldNick]

You know I _asked_ on the Corel forum if I could add codecs etc and nobody answered my question. I mean they replied, but kept telling how to fix what was there....and I CAN add codecs.

[poisondeathray]

I have dld that link you gave me and I can now get x264 in AVI. I cannot use mpeg in Corel, because it just gives no options, assuming everything is just NTSC DVD or PAL DVD

In Corel when I ask for 50fps I get 50fps according to mediainfo. And yes it does still flicker as I said.

I looked at those threads you linked to, thanks. However they do not seem to refer to the fact that even if you ask for 1080 50p you get 25p.

Here is one using that codec. 50fps reported. 12000 bit rate. I hope this helps.

There is a big difference, to me, between the 25fps flicker and what I am seeing.

What would you describe this as? flicker? choppy? strobe?

The problem is, this is 25p with duplicate frames, encoded as 50p (so effectively it's only 25p) - this is what I mean by "choppy"

Check your timeline settings, that they are set to 50p as well (if you can, I'm not familiar with that one)

But this has far fewer macroblocking and compression artifacts than your other uploaded videos (but it also uses a lot more bitrate)

You know I _asked_ on the Corel forum if I could add codecs etc and nobody answered my question. I mean they replied, but kept telling how to fix what was there....and I CAN add codecs.

Yeah, you get better help here from people that don't even use their program

[jagabo]

Here is one using that codec. 50fps reported. 12000 bit rate. I hope this helps.

There is a big difference, to me, between the 25fps flicker and what I am seeing.

That video is 50 fps but each pair of frames are duplicates, making it effectively 25 fps. Open it in an editor and step through frame by frame and it will be obvious.

[OldNick]

Here is one using that codec. 50fps reported. 12000 bit rate. I hope this helps.

There is a big difference, to me, between the 25fps flicker and what I am seeing.

That video is 50 fps but each pair of frames are duplicates, making it effectively 25 fps. Open it in an editor and step through frame by frame and it will be obvious.

Well....expletive deleted....why is THAT? And you were right and I am sorry I snapped at you. I give it a 50fps video and it does THAT! Is the programme really that bad?

OK. I just installed those Prem Elements codecs and yay! I have 50p, 720 0r 1080.....and it works........it's

smooooooooth

I cannot believe that was what was happening. That is just so shoddy.

I am going to take a pill and lie down. I am fatigued and having this thing work has made me feel quite strange, after fighting it for so long. It's like the bombing suddenly just stopped.

You guys have been absolutely bloody great! And patient, with the situation and with me. Again this was never mentioned on the Corel forum.

Man I feel good. Wow!

So Adobe it is. Corel can go jump.

Although I have dld vegas and I would like to try the GUI...but guess what the first thing I am looking for....

[OldNick]

Wow. I had a reply from the Corel forum, asking me to post up an image. That went badly wrong in some way, so I posted the mediainfo results.

"You converted your mts file to avi. That is completely inappropriate" "You made it 720*400. Read what I said (which was 1920*1080 convert) and do that. Then post the results."

I replied that the tone was a bit censorious and that the frame size and package had nothing to do with the FLICKER....oh and BTW I have now used Adobe Elements AND a cheap Vegas trial to get nice, smooth output, virtually OOTB. (a stretch with Adobe as I had to install those patches, but ....)

So like I said Corel can go jump.

Anyway, did I say something wrong, or are you guys just honouring my desire to have a break? Seriously I am extremely grateful.

Nick

[OldNick]

OK. Sorry. Wow

[jagabo]

I thought you solved all your problems. Do you have any remaining questions?

[OldNick]

No. Thanks.

[slgorin]

I Had a similar issue when using Freemake video converter. The output when converting to mp4 on some files had an obvious flicker in the output file. The frame rate was changed too. Turns out that when I let windows update my display driver, it messed up the video encoding. When I updated the ATI catalyst software it fixed my issue.

[OldNick]

I do not think this is a driver issue (a) it's fixed (b) It happened on two PCs.

I hate Windows Updates.

Nick

[SeanABAV]

The "flicker" that you're probably referring to is probably just compression artifacts. Just use a better codec and higher bitrate. The macroblocking and artifacts differ frame to frame, causing the perception of flicker


The "motion judder" is the difference between 50p and 25p. In your dog video, the 50p versions looks much smoother, correct? Did you look at the 60p/30p/24p video jagabo pointed out? That's analgous to the 50p vs 25p difference

You seem to be the most informed person here so I'm going to ask the same question being asked, because I have read all the comments and I still don't know how to fix the 50P to 25P problem.

Forgive me if the question has been adequately answered but I have tried so many settings and effects but I cannot fix the "judder" effect that comes from converting 50P (Shot at 1/100 shutter speed) to 25P. No matter what I convert it to the AVCHD footage (from Panasonic AG-AC 90) in Premier Pro (Which looks amazing in Premier) to 25P it gets that "judder" or flicker effect mostly on horizontal movement when rendered.
It is even worse on sped up footage.
Please let me know if there is a way to fix this in premier Pro or After effects.

[poisondeathray]

The "flicker" that you're probably referring to is probably just compression artifacts. Just use a better codec and higher bitrate. The macroblocking and artifacts differ frame to frame, causing the perception of flicker


The "motion judder" is the difference between 50p and 25p. In your dog video, the 50p versions looks much smoother, correct? Did you look at the 60p/30p/24p video jagabo pointed out? That's analgous to the 50p vs 25p difference

You seem to be the most informed person here so I'm going to ask the same question being asked, because I have read all the comments and I still don't know how to fix the 50P to 25P problem.

Forgive me if the question has been adequately answered but I have tried so many settings and effects but I cannot fix the "judder" effect that comes from converting 50P (Shot at 1/100 shutter speed) to 25P. No matter what I convert it to the AVCHD footage (from Panasonic AG-AC 90) in Premier Pro (Which looks amazing in Premier) to 25P it gets that "judder" or flicker effect mostly on horizontal movement when rendered.
It is even worse on sped up footage.
Please let me know if there is a way to fix this in premier Pro or After effects.

Simply put, it's not possible to get it as smooth or "fix" it , because you're cutting the motion samples in half

25p requires special shooting technique, you nee controlled panning and movement, stabilization rigs like steadicam. Handheld doesn't work well

Your conversion will be more choppy than usual because of the shutter. 25p is normally shot with 1/50, adding some natural motion blur. At 1/100 it will be very "strobey". So what people do is add artifical motion blur in post, but that has potential problems as well, like artifacts. And you don't want to "ruin" the 50p footage by shooting at 1/50 in the first place

To summarize:
1) Better shooting technique
2) Add "fake" motion blur in post (e.g. in After Effects), might make it "less bad"

[jagabo]

25p always flickers when there are large motions and high contrast content. Motion blur reduces it a bit. Lower contrast reduces it. See pan.avi in this post as an example (watch it full screen):

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/305001-Current-HD-standard-is-a-FAIL?p=1872228&view...=1#post1872228

You see this all the time in movies. 25 or 24 fps simply isn't high enough a frame rate to give smooth flicker free motion.

Attached is the same clip sped up to 60 fps by changing the frame rate in the AVI header. It looks nice and smooth even though it's the exact same frames.