Trying to solve video conversion flicker

[OldNick]

I have worked on at least 3 PCs. ATM I have a laptop with Win7 32 bit on it and a desktop with the same. They each 2GB RAM and 2 1/2 - 3 GHz processors. Drives are generic in the laptop and WD 7200 SATA in the desktop. The other one was an older PC with XP sp2.

I have tried many editors/converts and often have the same trouble.

My present dilemma is with a Panasonic HDC-HS700 video cam. The trouble occurs with 50fps progressive or without.

The video from the camera is very nice, and shows smoothly. But as soon as I convert it, it has a flicker. This is regular and very rapid, and is completely unlike any stutter caused by playback issues. It happens on both PCs.

I have tried every setting, frame rate, frame method (Frame based Upper Lower) data rate, codec, output format etc I can lay my hands on, to no result.

The only programmes that have allowed a smooth output are HandBrake, and Panasonic's own "editor" HD Writer. Trouble HB is not and editor and P's HDW is pretty useless because it will only export in the same format as what came from the camera, or to DVD. It gives smooth results to both.

HB _only_ gives good results if I allow it to use Same as Source for the frame rate. But if I try, say Adobe's Premiere trial, and ask for Same as Source, I still get the flicker. This is regardless of the video format or frame size etc

I am trying to install Avanti as an editor, as like HandBrake also uses ffmpeg , which so far seems to be the common factor for success. However I am having a lot of trouble and posted a support request in that thread.

In the meantime, can anyone help me work out what is happening? It's not just with the camera as I have had trouble with other sources. But the camera is the most distressing part to me.

I also see a the same flicker on TV a lot, so there seems to be quite a problem.

My aim at present is to simply have non-flickery output, with files that are not 1920*1080, as from the camera, so I can share stuff that is a bit smaller and more widely usable. So The actual medium or format is not at issue right now. Just a smooth video!

Any help greatly appreciated.

Nick

[poisondeathray]

use mediainfo (view=>text) on the source video and the exported video from premiere and handbrake, copy & paste the text reports back here

[jagabo]

The conversion software is probably converting 50 interlaced FPS to 24 or 30 progressive FPS. That causes flicker in bright moving shots.

[poisondeathray]

The conversion software is probably converting 50 interlaced FPS to 24 or 30 progressive FPS. That causes flicker in bright moving shots.

That model has a 50p native mode (60p in NTSC areas)

[OldNick]

use mediainfo (view=>text) on the source video and the exported video from premiere and handbrake, copy & paste the text reports back here

Thanks for the reply

Result of scan below.

However I have just achieved a result. literally a couple of minutes ago.

If I:
- use ffmpeg as the converter
- allow it to use Source Frame Rate
I get smooth result.

This is repeatable. I used HandBrake and got a result. So I finally managed to get Avanti running (mostly) and also got a good result, using mpeg-4 and either avi or mpg as the wrapper.

Nick

CAMERA
General
ID : 1 (0x1)
Complete name : C:\Panasonic\00007.MTS
Format : BDAV
Format/Info : Blu-ray Video
File size : 38.4 MiB
Duration : 11s 916ms
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 27.0 Mbps
Maximum Overall bit rate : 28.0 Mbps

Video
ID : 4113 (0x1011)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.2
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 4 frames
Format settings, GOP : M=3, N=24
Codec ID : 27
Duration : 11s 960ms
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 25.6 Mbps
Maximum bit rate : 26.0 Mbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 50.000 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.247
Stream size : 36.4 MiB (95%)

Audio
ID : 4352 (0x1100)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Mode extension : CM (complete main)
Codec ID : 129
Duration : 12s 32ms
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 384 Kbps
Channel(s) : 6 channels
Channel positions : Front: L C R, Side: L R, LFE
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Bit depth : 16 bits
Compression mode : Lossy
Delay relative to video : -40ms
Stream size : 564 KiB (1%)

Text
ID : 4608 (0x1200)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : PGS
Codec ID : 144
Duration : 11s 456ms
Delay relative to video : -40ms

HANDBRAKE
General
Complete name : C:\Panasonic\00007.avi
Format : AVI
Format/Info : Audio Video Interleave
File size : 4.90 MiB
Duration : 12s 80ms
Overall bit rate : 3 404 Kbps
Writing application : Lavf54.1.100

Video
ID : 0
Format : MPEG-4 Visual
Format profile : Simple@L1
Format settings, BVOP : No
Format settings, QPel : No
Format settings, GMC : No warppoints
Format settings, Matrix : Default (H.263)
Codec ID : DIVX
Codec ID/Info : Project Mayo
Codec ID/Hint : DivX 4
Duration : 12s 80ms
Bit rate : 3 258 Kbps
Width : 360 pixels
Height : 200 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Compression mode : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 1.810
Stream size : 4.69 MiB (96%)
Writing library : Lavc54.4.100

Audio
ID : 1
Format : MPEG Audio
Format version : Version 1
Format profile : Layer 3
Mode : Joint stereo
Mode extension : MS Stereo
Codec ID : 55
Codec ID/Hint : MP3
Duration : 12s 69ms
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 128 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Sampling rate : 44.1 KHz
Compression mode : Lossy
Stream size : 189 KiB (4%)
Alignment : Aligned on interleaves
Interleave, duration : 26 ms (0.65 video frame)

ADOBE
General
Complete name : C:\Nick\ADOBE\same as source.f4v
Format : MPEG-4
Format profile : Adobe Flash
Codec ID : f4v
File size : 3.39 MiB
Duration : 6s 160ms
Overall bit rate : 4 610 Kbps
Encoded date : UTC 2012-03-03 01:23:30
Tagged date : UTC 2012-03-03 01:23:30

Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.1
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 3 frames
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 6s 160ms
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 4 500 Kbps
Width : 360 pixels
Height : 200 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Standard : NTSC
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 2.500
Stream size : 3.30 MiB (98%)
Title : MainConcept
Language : English
Encoded date : UTC 2012-03-03 01:23:30
Tagged date : UTC 2012-03-03 01:23:30
Color primaries : BT.601-6 525, BT.1358 525, BT.1700 NTSC, SMPTE 170M
Transfer characteristics : BT.601-6 525, BT.601-6 625, BT.1358 525, BT.1358 625, BT.1700 NTSC, SMPTE 170M
Matrix coefficients : BT.601-6 525, BT.1358 525, BT.1700 NTSC, SMPTE 170M

Audio
ID : 2
Format : AAC
Format/Info : Advanced Audio Codec
Format profile : HE-AAC / LC
Codec ID : 40
Duration : 6s 160ms
Source duration : 6s 269ms
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 96.0 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel positions : Front: L R
Sampling rate : 44.1 KHz / 22.05 KHz
Compression mode : Lossy
Stream size : 72.4 KiB (2%)
Source stream size : 73.5 KiB
Language : English
Encoded date : UTC 2012-03-03 01:23:30
Tagged date : UTC 2012-03-03 01:23:30

[poisondeathray]

You didn't post the other information, but you can do the same thing in premiere (or most NLE's) .

Most likely you either set the sequence setting incorrectly (1080i50 , not 1080p50) , or file was interpreted incorrectly , or export settings weren't correct


EDIT: I see they are posted now
It looks like you messed up the resolution, and frame rate

Width : 360 pixels
Height : 200 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 25.000 fps

[OldNick]

HAH! You were too fast!Q Thanks

I edited and posted the other stuff.

[OldNick]

You didn't post the other information, but you can do the same thing in premiere (or most NLE's) .

Most likely you either set the sequence setting incorrectly (1080i50 , not 1080p50) , or file was interpreted incorrectly , or export settings weren't correct

Well I only used Adobe because I have also extensively tried Video Studio from Corel and asked for help on their forums. It will not do non-flickery video. I have tried i and p and Lower and Upper and Frame based (P)

All throughout this, Handbrake has given me smooth video if I let it use Source as the frame rate.

I would like to hear what you think, because it seems crazy.

Nick

[poisondeathray]

It must look like garbage compared to the original - 360x200 ??? Did you mean to resize it?

25p is throwing out half the frames, so it will be "choppy" - I wouldn't call that "flicker"

I don't use Video Studio, but it should be able to do it too (all editors should be able to) if you enter 1920x1080p50 for all the settings (project settings, file interpretation settings, export settings)

[OldNick]

What I want to do though is have different sizes and stuff, not always use 1920*1080p and massive bit rates. That way I can move them about and they can be played on other than super machines. My laptop cannot play the camera videos properly, for instance.

The trouble is with both Adobe and Corel, they both limit what you can do, I think to make things "easy'. So if you choose one method, you can only have certain options of frame size etc. I get that with DVD and stuff, but not for disc files. I know all of them will not be optimal, but given that I am getting a lousy result, I want to try things.

For instance I seem unable to pick source frame rate, or even 50fps, 50p or not in Video Studio, except by using a Blu ray preset.

320*200 was because I was tired of waiting for convert after convert. If it looks promising I have a larger go. I can pick the problem from the quality.

Why does 25 frames cause choppiness? It has lost half the frames, but it's still as fast as 25fps. Anyway even 50 gives trouble. the ONLY result has been Source frame rate and ffmpeg.

Sorry. I have been at this for days and I really have tried every setting.

Just to be sure, I just did one in Corel with the Blu Ray setting....1920*1080 50p. It flickers! Just the same.

Not trying to be smart. I tried it because I wanted to be sure

Nick

[OldNick]

Just to add. I have just tried converting a video using HandBrake, then running it through Corel
VS to edit. it flickers when it comes out of Corel.

And also, the DVD I cut using HD Writer (Panasonic's own) is 25fps and smooth as silk.

Nick

[poisondeathray]

What I want to do though is have different sizes and stuff, not always use 1920*1080p and massive bit rates. That way I can move them about and they can be played on other than super machines. My laptop cannot play the camera videos properly, for instance.

The trouble is with both Adobe and Corel, they both limit what you can do, I think to make things "easy'. So if you choose one method, you can only have certain options of frame size etc. I get that with DVD and stuff, but not for disc files. I know all of them will not be optimal, but given that I am getting a lousy result, I want to try things.

For instance I seem unable to pick source frame rate, or even 50fps, 50p or not in Video Studio, except by using a Blu ray preset.

Well Corel VS has a poor reputation around here

Why does 25 frames cause choppiness? It has lost half the frames, but it's still as fast as 25fps. Anyway even 50 gives trouble.

50 fps produces smoother motion, because twice the temporal information is represented

Just to be sure, I just did one in Corel with the Blu Ray setting....1920*1080 50p. It flickers! Just the same.

That flickers because 1080p50 isn't blu-ray compliant. 1080i50 is - so it converts it to interlaced and then the TV deinterlaces it - that causes flicker

But if you watched a 1080p50 file (not on blu-ray), but directly from a computer, there would be no flicker, and it would be smooth (best of both worlds)

2 things:

1)smoothess is most determined (at least in this context) by FPS: 25p vs. 50p
2) "flickering" (in this context) is from aliasing deinterlacing artifacts if you used 50i

And also, the DVD I cut using HD Writer (Panasonic's own) is 25fps and smooth as silk.

Similarly DVD doesn't support 50p, it's converted to 50i = flicker , or 25p = jerky

But , PAL DVD supports 25p, but the motion samples are cut in half = jerky, but no flicker
A 50i DVD would be smoother, but have flicker

[OldNick]

I am not sure I understand. I did watch the Bluray 1080 p50 vid on the PC not on Bluray. None of this is on removable media. I just save to the format.

Corel definitely has the choice of 1080 50p or just 1080.....not i50 but just 50 I chose P50.

Anyway all this is moot, although interesting. The only reason I used DVD and Blurray was because the HD Writer programme did it smoothly and as a way to get Corel to do 1080 p50, to test it.. No other attmempt in any programme not using ffmpeg has worked.

I can see that 50fps will be smoother...but 25fps has been the norm even in film days and we did not see what I am seeing. This is seomthing other than just the speed, because even 50fps vids that I have converted have flickered, and I reckon at exactly the same speed as the 25fps ones.

I have Corel VS crash on me about 10 times while I have been trying it. However Adobe has not done the goods either.

Nick

[OldNick]

I posted examples of each result to PhotoBucket, but unfortunately they both look the same when played on the web.

Is there somewhere I can put them for you to grab, or can I email them? I just thought it might help if you saw what I am talking about, with and without flicker, after conversion using ffmpeg and with other codecs.

Interestingly, snapping various times throughout the process, MediaInfo shows average frame rates of 49 and 48 on the ffmpeg treated files, whereas the info for the original says 50fps. The low frame rates and high frame rates vary enormously on the converted files. That is not reported by the original.

[jagabo]

You can upload samples directly to this site. Up to 100 MB each.

For an example of the flicker caused by 24 or 30 fps (compared to 60 fps) see the video in this post:

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/307004-Best-framerate-conversion-%28eg-23-97-to-30-...=1#post1888926

Professional movie makers know how to reduce the jerkiness/flicker of 24 fps film while shooting. They use shallow depth of field, motion blur, etc.

[OldNick]

You can upload samples directly to this site. Up to 100 MB each.

For an example of the flicker caused by 24 or 30 fps (compared to 60 fps) see the video in this post:

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/307004-Best-framerate-conversion-%28eg-23-97-to-30-...=1#post1888926

Professional movie makers know how to reduce the jerkiness/flicker of 24 fps film while shooting. They use shallow depth of field, motion blur, etc.

Thank you.

I will check out the 50/25 thing, but I have had the same flicker even if I ask for 50fps as the output. The ONLY good result has been Source Frame Rate or Auto (which seems the same thing).

I get that you can avoid 25 fps flicker.. slow shutter speed as well as shallow depth etc,.. But I get the flicker even if I ask for 50fps. In my situation, Source frame Rate is the only one that works. The camera is OK. Convert is OK. But ONLY if I use ffmpeg and Source frame rate.

[jagabo]

Just because you're asking for 50 fps output doesn't mean you're getting 50 unique frames per second. The software may be reducing the frame rate to 25 and duplicating frames. Without seeing examples we have no idea what you are seeing.

[OldNick]

so every piece of software i use is doing that? I give it a vid that is 108050p and it does that? Come on! I am not daft

[poisondeathray]

so every piece of software i use is doing that? I give it a vid that is 108050p and it does that? Come on! I am not daft

No, he said "might"

But everything works if you use the correct settings (in all programs, like x264 which handbrake uses, premiere, vegas etc... I don't know about Corel VS) . I'm 100% sure those other programs work for 60p or 50p. It will look the very similar to the original

Handbrake will use VFR (variable frame rate) if you use "same as source" , so sometimes isn't 50.0 exactly . If you force CFR, then it will be 50.0 exactly, as the original . This won't be a cause for "flicker" as I describe flicker anyway. Perhaps you are using "flicker" in a different manner

Perhaps you should upload some examples, of the source and encodes? Maybe you're describing something different? or not describing it correctly ? You can use free file hosting sites eg. mediafire.com, sendspace.com

[OldNick]

ok i will upload here, but it probably still will not show right. AH. It downloads. Good.

[poisondeathray]

ok i will upload here, but it probably still will not show right. AH. It downloads. Good.

This is likely because you used the wrong codec for Corel.

MS Video 1 (Cram) uses a limited color palette, so everything looks posterized and gradients are blocky

Try another export format like h.264 or even xvid

[OldNick]

and here is an Adobe PE one Same as Source, progressive.

OK couldn't load it because it's f4v I will try again

[OldNick]

ok i will upload here, but it probably still will not show right. AH. It downloads. Good.

This is likely because you used the wrong codec for Corel.

MS Cram uses a limited color palette

Try another export format like h.264 or even xvid

Sorry I do not understand. This is not about colour it's about the flickering. I realise it looks bad for colour as I chose 8 bit as well.

Or are you saying that using the wrong codec ....I am confused. What;s MS Cram. I have never hearcd of it.

[poisondeathray]

Sorry I do not understand. This is not about colour it's about the flickering. I realise it looks bad for colour as I chose 8 bit as well.

That's what the flickering is from - the low bit depth (color depth) codec. Color gradients have limited representation with low bit depth, so the blocks along edges that are supposed to represent object edges "flicker" as you go frame to frame
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_depth

Or are you saying that using the wrong codec ....I am confused. What;s MS Cram. I have never hearcd of it.

Format : MS Video
Codec ID : CRAM
Codec ID/Info : Microsoft Video 1

[poisondeathray]

There might be other problems with Corel (knowing it's history, I would say probably...) , but to rule this out you need to export another format - try h.264/aac/mp4 like you did with handbrake

I don't see the Adobe video uploaded can you check on that? Also is this Premiere Pro? Because other versions of Premiere (Elements) might not support 1080p60 properly

[OldNick]

I have tried just about every codec I could find. MSVideo1 was just by chance this time.

Here is the Adobe one converted by HB to mp4. (I hope)

So Elements may not work either?

[poisondeathray]

I have tried just about every codec I could find. MSVideo1 was just by chance this time.

Here is the Adobe one converted by HB to mp4. (I hope)

So Elements may not work either?

This one is 25fps . So either handbrake screwed up, or Elements screwed up. More likely Elements. I don't know if Elements supports 1080p50 . I think you need to make a custom sequence preset

Low quality & pixelated, low bitrate . The macroblocked edges are what cause the "flickering" here. (but not as bad as Cram) - these are just encoding issues that you can control. But also motion is "choppy" because of 25p (you can control that in premiere pro, not sure about elements)\

I also notice you're using mpeg4 visual (xvid), not h.264 in handbrake. Any reason?

OK couldn't load it because it's f4v I will try again

If the site won't accept it you can zip it up eg. with 7zip , or use another site e.g. mediafire.com

[OldNick]

OK. I just tried a 25fps from camera video, and Corel, Adobe both caused some more flicker than the original. HB did not. I can see the origina 25fps flicker (although it's tough because the video is at the edge of the computer's play power at full size) but I can definitely see more of the "judder" I talked about.

Are my post ups showing what I mean?

[OldNick]

Sorry. No reason why I used one or t'other: xvid or h264. Both work OK for flicker. At this stage I am focussing on one thing only.

I have to point out that whatever I use, I have tried others, and regarding flicker the results are the same in all cases.

[poisondeathray]

The "flicker" that you're probably referring to is probably just compression artifacts. Just use a better codec and higher bitrate. The macroblocking and artifacts differ frame to frame, causing the perception of flicker


The "motion judder" is the difference between 50p and 25p. In your dog video, the 50p versions looks much smoother, correct? Did you look at the 60p/30p/24p video jagabo pointed out? That's analgous to the 50p vs 25p difference