DVDStyler - please advise on menu frame count/hardware compatibility

[dogcatcher]

I'm trying to learn more about menu frame counts and their relation to compatibility with hardware players.

I was making a dvd with DVDStyler (2.1b2 on WinXP) and was testing it on various hardware and software players. I have two standalone hardware players, a Pioneer DV-333 and a Toshiba SD-3950. I discovered, using an unmodified default menu template provided with DVDStyler, that the menu operated correctly on the Pioneer but not on the Toshiba.

The Toshiba's behavior was that pressing an arrow key would invisibly change the selected button but that the highlighting would not change on the screen. For example, if there are two buttons and button 1 is the default selected button it would be highlighted but pressing an arrow key would never move the highlighting to button 2.

I then discovered that by adjusting the setting for "Frame count of menu" within DVDStyler downwards from it's default setting of 100 frames the menus began working properly on the Toshiba. Thus far I have tested frame counts of 1, 2, 6 and 30 frames. The menus have proper highlighting operation with 1, 2 and 6 frames but break again at 30 frames so somewhere in between 6 and 30 frames causes malfunction.

Some questions:
1. Why would there be such a difference between two hardware players in terms of how many frames they tolerate in a menu?

2. Why would DVDStyler default to creating 100 frames, even for a still image? How was the value of 100 arrived at?

3. What are safe values for maximum compatibility on hardware players? I would assume 1 frame would be appropriate for a still image but DVDStyler outputs a very pixelated and blurry still image background if the frame count is set to 1. It seems I need to create at least 3 frames to get a sharp image and I am wondering if there are hardware players out there that would refuse anything other than 1 frame.

4. Is menu frame count the core issue behind the Toshiba's broken menu behavior or by adjusting menu frame count am I actually affecting some other hidden variable that is the real issue?

In general I would like to hear any details or trivia you may think of on this topic. I've asked these questions over at the DVDStyler help forum as well but there is much less activity there.

Thanks

[chowmein]

I know there "use" to be problems with 1 frame menus on some players, not sure if that's still the case these days? I have always used 12 frames for still menus, whether PAL or NTSC project, and never ran into any problems? I can't really answer your specific questions. I have no idea why DVDStyler defaults to 100 frames for still menus? That seems odd to me.

[dogcatcher]

I have always used 12 frames for still menus, whether PAL or NTSC project, and never ran into any problems?

How did you arrive at the value of 12 frames?

[chowmein]

I can't remember, I read it somewhere... 12 is minimum GOP for DVD maybe?

Does it play on your Toshibo properly with 12 frames menu?

[dogcatcher]

Does it play on your Toshibo properly with 12 frames menu?

Yes. Just finished testing with 12 frames. The menus work properly on all my players, both hardware and software.

Thanks for the info!

[chowmein]

Great stuff!

[dogcatcher]

A bit more testing to satisfy my own curiosity...

Reading that 12 was GOP size for PAL and 15 for NTSC and considering this Toshiba SD-3950 is a NTSC player I wondered if it would tolerate a 15 frame count menu. It will not.

The behavior is kind of interesting. At 12 frames everything works properly and as expected. At 15 frames it is mostly broken but not entirely. If you press the arrow key enough times eventually your selection will highlight but it seems completely unpredictable. With a 17 frame menu everything is 100% broken and highlighting never changes regardless of how many times an arrow key is pressed.

[chowmein]

15 for PAL and 18 for NTSC are maximum GOPS, 12 should still be compliant for either format. It is confusing, though, and I've never seen a clear definitive answer about GOPs?? I hope someone more knowledgeable can chip in here...?

[dogcatcher]

I started wondering if this Toshiba would handle menus made in even multiples of 12. The answer is no. 12 seems to be the absolute max allowed frame count for proper menu operation, at least with DVDStyler output. It will of course load and display a menu with almost any frame count but the highlighting action breaks beyond a frame count of 12.

This begs the question of how the Toshiba could handle any animated menu if any menu with more than 12 frames breaks the highlighting.

I don't suppose anyone has or could link to a smallish sample .iso that demonstrates a genuine animated menu? I would like to test this in the Toshiba.

[videobruger]

You could make one test sample with animated background / button using AVSTODVD

https://www.videohelp.com/tools/AVStoDVD