The Ultimate Camcorder - Why is nobody building it?

[SpectateSwamp]

I think fisher price sell the camcorder your looking for!

You jest. If fisher price did have these options then they deserve all the camcorder business.

[SpectateSwamp]

How about a 2X4 strap so the camcorder doesn't fall in too on those XXX rated shots?

That's what the wrist strap is for...

[SpectateSwamp]

* The ability to attach to a spotting scope for digiscoping

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSYszdLbKYc
I had the Camcorder on a tripod behind the spotting scope on another tripod to get the above video

Very specialized so should be a potential business for you.

Why not use the camcorder as the spotting scope? I'd like to understand the need.

In astronomical terms, a "spotting scope" is wide angle intended to be an aide to directing the higher power Newton scope.

In military terms, a "spotting scope" directs a gun to a head movement. We are talking 6-8 figures here.

The spotting scope I used was owned by a trapper friend. Digiscoping is happening. I'd use it to do video of distant mountains where there are game trails. Then play that back later in the evening. Looking for Bear, Sasquatch and maybe even a bird on a distant nest. Public officials need to be watched as well. The farther away the better / safer.

[budwzr]

How about a pistol grip to go with that sight tube? That way you can save battery power.

As soon as you aim it, the SWAT team will mow you down, and after a minute or two, the camcorder will auto-power off.

[SpectateSwamp]

How about a pistol grip to go with that sight tube? That way you can save battery power.

As soon as you aim it, the SWAT team will mow you down, and after a minute or two, the camcorder will auto-power off.

You do have to be careful when shooting video. Especially if you catch the police doing a crime.

My Ultimate Camcorder wouldn't even have a Start/Stop record button. I don't think I've used the one on my Sony. It just encourages doing bad video, like the hand strap.

I contacted these folks in the last day. I don't expect any responses.

https://web-form.sony.co.jp/web-form/en/SimpleForm?ActionType=Input&QD=8909d4dfd453d5e0c99 3847aaf059dcd&RID=Input1
https://sec.panasonic.biz/sav/sec-cgi-bin/contact/message.cgi
http://www.hitachi.com/GlobalSupport/ContactUs?form_type=global_support
http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/consumer/form_display/sup_by_email
dv@cits.canon.com
https://contactus.samsung.com/customer/contactus/formmail/mail/MailQuestionProduct.jsp...D=1&PROD_ID=44

http://www.sharpusa.com/CustomerSupport/ContactUs/ContactUsProductSupport.aspx
https://www.webcom.toshiba.co.jp/us/voice/
info@ngo-jvc.net
http://www.kodak.com/cgi-bin/CA/en/corp/webFeedbackEng.cgi?To=kciinternet@kodak.com
kciinternet@kodak.com
http://www.sanyo-ss.co.jp/en/contact/index.html
http://sanyoservice.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/sanyoservice.cfg/php/enduser/ask.php?p_sid=xr...bCZwX3BhZ2U9MQ**

[filmboss80]

This thread provides clear insight into why it is impossible for camcorder manufacturers to make the "ultimate" camcorder; one person's idea of "ultimate" may be vastly different from that of another person. Much of what is on the wish list is superfluous stuff I can do without, largely for the very same reasons already articulated in edDV's responses.

(Ever see that "Simpsons" episode where Homer designed his idea of the ultimate car?)

Having shot film and video over the years, I'm actually generally grateful for what is out there for the prices they are currently at. (You should have seen the way things were in the '80s and '90s!) Instead of focusing on the ultimate camcorder, I--and the guys who work with me--tend to focus on being the ultimate videographer; that is, someone who can take whatever camera is placed in their hands, assess its capabilities and limitations, be creative and resourceful within those parameters, then make the best of the situation. We've had a lot of challenges, but as long as the camcorders worked, we could always adapt to the situation and spin gold.

[budwzr]

focus on being the ultimate videographer; that is, someone who can take whatever camera is placed in their hands, assess its capabilities and limitations, be creative and resourceful within those parameters

I've always placed a priority on portability, and prefer equipment that is "touristy" looking, and I even wear an old fart hat. The times that I use my Zoom H2, I notice a lot more eyeballs watching me.

I can wear a Playsport around my neck, H2 in pocket with a wired lav under my shirt, and go into a casino filming, so long as I look like a putz nobody even notices me, it's like camouflage, but better, like hiding in plain sight.

[SpectateSwamp]

This thread provides clear insight into why it is impossible for camcorder manufacturers to make the "ultimate" camcorder; one person's idea of "ultimate" may be vastly different from that of another person. Much of what is on the wish list is superfluous stuff I can do without, largely for the very same reasons already articulated in edDV's responses.

Like what is superfluous. Having to edit out jigglies because manufacturers don't put $5 remotes on low end camcorders.

I'm pretty sure you can't do golf video anywhere near as fast as my unediting method. I don't think you have a clue and are part of the problem. Boo to you Filmboss80

[SpectateSwamp]

* put a lock out or cover on the zoom button. I have ruined a couple video clips by accidentally hitting the zoom.

ok, never had that problem.

On bush trails I carry the camcorder at about a foot above the ground. My fingers underneath and my thumb on the top. That is how I accidentally hit the zoom. I've probably ruined 15 or 20 video clips this way. But it is sure a neet angle. Lifting the camcorder just over logs and other objects along the way.

[mrswla]

On bush trails I carry the camcorder at about a foot above the ground. My fingers underneath and my thumb on the top. That is how I accidentally hit the zoom. I've probably ruined 15 or 20 video clips this way. But it is sure a neet angle. Lifting the camcorder just over logs and other objects along the way.

Make something like http://littlegreatideas.com/stabilizer/diy/. Look under useful add-ons at the inverting bracket. That way your hands never come in contact with the camera and you still get that low angle look.

[filmboss80]

Like what is superfluous.

Seriously? "The ability to attach to a spotting scope..." What percentage of videographers need that? In-camera watermarking capabilities? Zoom button cover? Extra large menu font? Mounted spotting tube? YOU may desperately need them, but most of the rest of us can make great videos just fine without them. Feel free to customize your own shooting rig, but don't expect the majority of videographers to join your personal campaign for features they won't likely use.

Having to edit out jigglies because manufacturers don't put $5 remotes on low end camcorders.

A camcorder is like a woman: it responds best to the smooth touch of skilled hands.

I'm pretty sure you can't do golf video anywhere near as fast as my unediting method.

Couldn't say who can do it faster or better without actual comparisons, but over the years I've had to do a number of on-the-fly, one-take shoots with in-camera edits, ready to roll out after the event. That includes golf matches for paying clients. If I wasn't good at it, I wouldn't have had such a long and lucrative career.

I don't think you have a clue and are part of the problem.

Yeah, you're probably right. I would've had a better clue if this thread were titled "The ultimate camcorder for fumbly-figured guys who like to shoot birds through a spotting scope, as well as golf foursomes, but are too lazy to edit and too cheap to buy higher-end video gear."

Boo to you Filmboss80

You're not the first--and doubtless won't be the last--with that sentiment in this forum. But when you started this thread, were you really asking for informed opinions from experienced shooters? Or were you just seeking followers for your personal crusade?

[budwzr]

One feature overlooked for "bush filming" is a wind direction sensor. You don't want to get caught in the crosshairs of a bull gorilla in mating season, or worse yet, a coupla toothless hillbillys.

[edDV]

I don't edit any video and it makes doing video far easier for the novice if they don't have to learn editing software.

OK, I'd rather edit.

But don't force editing on others. A remote solves the most serious problem with video and pics. And it's cheap. Editing does not improve the quality of the video therefore it degrades it. EXAMPLE I messed with editing a number of years back and very faint vapor trail behind the object of interest disappeared in the edited version.

This depends on how you cut. H.264 camera files are the toughest to cut but that is what perople buy.

The pro/prosumer cams target people that want a quality result. The camcorder design follows function. Serious shooters worry most about things like low light performance and audio.

Sony hit the consumer camcorder target in the 90's with Hi8 and DV formats, with relatively small size and a high quality SD picture. Still the consumer market demanded smaller size and tapeless recording. Consumers didn't/don't care that small size means poor low light performance and "tapeless" means high compression and difficult editing. Also flash RAM costs 10x more than tape currently but they don't care about that either.

The good news is the explosion of internet media has caused both market segments to grow forcing prices down. I'm hoping to see the $2000 prosumer price point broken with a cam similar to the JVC GY-HM100U but with SDI interface. That is my idea of ideal. With that you can broacast live to the net. Meanwhile, consumers are happy with simple clip upload to Youtube.

http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/features.jsp

[edDV]

* Kill the Digital Zoom. What a totally useless option.

I would agree but some saps would buy based on nnnx zoom. Who is at fault here? I say the saps.

Consumers aren't saps they just don't spend all their spare time on video forums. It's up to the rest of us to force the issue. The non techies need us to show the way rather that laugh at their stupidity.

Just saying that a consumer camcorder/camera that says 50x (digital zoom) will sell better than a quality 3x optical zoom. The uninformed go for large numbers.

[edDV]

* The ability to attach to a spotting scope for digiscoping

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSYszdLbKYc
I had the Camcorder on a tripod behind the spotting scope on another tripod to get the above video

Very specialized so should be a potential business for you.

Why not use the camcorder as the spotting scope? I'd like to understand the need.

In astronomical terms, a "spotting scope" is wide angle intended to be an aide to directing the higher power Newton scope.

In military terms, a "spotting scope" directs a gun to a head movement. We are talking 6-8 figures here.

The spotting scope I used was owned by a trapper friend. Digiscoping is happening. I'd use it to do video of distant mountains where there are game trails. Then play that back later in the evening. Looking for Bear, Sasquatch and maybe even a bird on a distant nest. Public officials need to be watched as well. The farther away the better / safer.

So you want to use a spotting scope as the lens and record directly?

[edDV]

focus on being the ultimate videographer; that is, someone who can take whatever camera is placed in their hands, assess its capabilities and limitations, be creative and resourceful within those parameters

I've always placed a priority on portability, and prefer equipment that is "touristy" looking, and I even wear an old fart hat. The times that I use my Zoom H2, I notice a lot more eyeballs watching me.

I can wear a Playsport around my neck, H2 in pocket with a wired lav under my shirt, and go into a casino filming, so long as I look like a putz nobody even notices me, it's like camouflage, but better, like hiding in plain sight.

Yep, choose the right tool for the job. I have pro camcorders and small consumer camcorders that have the essential features like the Canon HV series. I also carry a pocket digital cam that shoots stills and video clips.

[edDV]

This thread provides clear insight into why it is impossible for camcorder manufacturers to make the "ultimate" camcorder; one person's idea of "ultimate" may be vastly different from that of another person. Much of what is on the wish list is superfluous stuff I can do without, largely for the very same reasons already articulated in edDV's responses.

Like what is superfluous. Having to edit out jigglies because manufacturers don't put $5 remotes on low end camcorders.

I agree that feature is necessary for both camcorders and still cams. I like to shoot from a tripod and prefer not to touch the camera.

The solution would need to be wireless electronics, a simple chip because adding a connector is costly. But consider the need for encryption codes like a garage door opener. You don't want other people's remotes triggering your cam.

[SpectateSwamp]

Sorry I should have assigned points to each. Out of 100

80 points for cheap $5 remotes; is surely 4 times more important than all the rest of the features combined.

10 points for the design change. The hand strap is not a good way to shoot video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqsXWPmsgBk
I would have never noticed the mouse if I was using the view screen and the flashlight shooting method makes it easy to catch the action. The hand strap is a loser.

1 point for a detachable view screen. They have to install it anyway so this shouldn't be a big item cost wise.

1 point for the GPS watermark option. it has it's own switch. I'd just make short-short videos or 1 pic for location then switch it off. I don't want to have to go digging for this info. Again this would be a minor software fix.

-1 point for the ability to view the videos on the tiny tiny screen. I never watch or delete any video on the camcorder; this is another worthless option.

1 point for the time showing on the screen. That should be an easy software option with no cost. There are a number of far more useless options in the menu.

1 point for the ability to skip the beginning and end of each video. If it's difficult to skip the end, then the eliminating the jigglies at the beginning is a good start. My software can be set to start 1/2 second in and play for the length of the video - 1 second. I created this option because when I started doing video, the jigglies annoyed me to no end.

1 point for the sighting tube / flashlight mount on the top of the CC

2 points for the mute option. Wind noise and yappy friends would be the main reason for this option. They could use the start/stop recording switch. I don't use that button.. ever.

2 points for the ability to attach to a spotting scope to the front of the CC. Everybody with a spotting scope would love this one. It wouldn't be expensive either.

2 points for standard AA or AAA batteries. Just a waste of money for the batteries and the chargers.

1 point for the zoom cover/lock. I guess I could use a small piece of electrical tape to solve the problem...

-1 point for the so called "Pros" that like to keep things complex. Just so they can look smart.

Most of recent great video has been shot on cell phones by amateurs not by self proclaimed pros. Egypt, tsunami, police brutality etc. It's not the equipment that makes these shots great. A pro would be busy checking the lighting etc and most likely miss the action.

[SpectateSwamp]

Geez I forgot the files being YYYYMMDDHHMMSS.mpg and seperate files. I wouldn't buy a CC where the video is in 1 huge file. Yesterday I was reading about the shooting in Florida where a Brave amateur shot video of the cops shooting some poor sole in a car. He hid the chip in his mouth and the cel phone was destroyed. Someone mentioned in the comments that we need a app that will immediately upload the video to youtube, what a greate idea.

Take these points off the Remote..

10 points for multiple mpg files with the above naming format.
2 points for the wireless app for immediate upload to youtube.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/06/08/florida.shooting.witness/index.html?npt=NP1

It sure would be comforting to know that when you get your head blown off for videoing police brutality that the perps won't get away with it. Wouldn't it...

[SpectateSwamp]

Change the points for Batteries to at least 10. My first digital camera had AA batteries. The manufacturers soak us for their special batteries and chargers. My Hitachi 350a cost me. A backup battery was a dud so I paid for 3 ($70 per) that are useless anywhere else. The Charger crapped out so I had to get a 2nd. Living in a small town I had to travel a distance to get replacements. When the camcorder dies none of which is of any use.

AA batteries rates a BUY
Remotes rates a BUY
Design like a flashlight rates a BUY
Mini clips and mpg format rates a BUY

file names in the YYYYMMDDHHMMSS.mpg format rates a really want

Are any manufacturers here yet? What do you have to say for yourselves. Wise up or GoodBye and good riddance.

[SpectateSwamp]

Here is a prime example of Mute saving me a ton of editing. (I hate editing a lot)

I'm sure these tunes will get me in trouble with the balladeers and their thugs. A mute button would be so handy.

http://www.youtube.com/my_playlists?p=9557B287D336D82F
http://www.youtube.com/my_playlists?p=0CB1DD4060F9782B

271 short video clips of SkateBoard demonstration.

[budwzr]

That's Amazing!

[SpectateSwamp]

A Max zoom capability would be very handy for me.

During a Soccer game, I seldom look in the view screen. And full zoom (20X) is way too high. I'd like the ability to set the max to 7 to 10 TIMES. When the play is close to me I zoom back when it's on the other side of the field; I go to the max of 7 or 10 without looking.

[budwzr]

When you can't hold it steady, that's your signal to hold or cut back.

I do fast zooms a lot, and bring the subject 80 present full frame, that's my limit.

[intracube]

During a Soccer game, I seldom look in the view screen. And full zoom (20X) is way too high. I'd like the ability to set the max to 7 to 10 TIMES. When the play is close to me I zoom back when it's on the other side of the field; I go to the max of 7 or 10 without looking.

You don't monitor what you're videoing? So you point your camera in the direction of the action and hope for the best...Uh..

[intracube]

I've read your suggestions earlier in the thread. The ones I agree with:

- option to disable digital zoom (my Canon has this)
- "Videos should be in short segments", it would be a nice option to have, as long as it can be disabled.
- date used as filename. I'd prefer YYYY-MM-DD_HH-MM-SS.MTS for better readability

Don't agree with:

- the need for wired remote control, camcorders often have mini IR remotes these days
- detachable view screen sounds a nice idea, but storing even 10 inches of cable would be impractical in a small camcorder body. How would the cable be stored? It'd have to work better than the retracting cord on my vacuum cleaner...

EDIT: As others have said, we all have a different list of features that we'd like our ideal camcorder to have. There wouldn't be much of an overlap between your list and mine. I'd like:

- full frame 36x24mm sensor
- ability to record 16:9 (full width 1920x1080), 4:3 (full height 1706x1280) and 3:2 (entire sensor 1920x1280).
- 24p, 25p, 30p, 50p, 60p all at full resolution, up to 120p at reduced HD, 240p at SD
- onboard bitrate, 50 or 100Mbit/sec h264
- uncompressed video out
- modular design, users could buy an audio module which would give balanced inputs/pro connectors
- lens mount easily changeable to take Nikon, Canon, PL mount lenses etc
- relatively low sensor pixel density, around 2-4M pixels (better for low light while still giving sharp HD video)
- decent down-sampling of all pixels from the sensor
- either a global shutter for CMOS sensor, or read-reset times a fraction of what they typically are
- good handling of high dynamic range scenes
- peaking for video monitoring

all for ~£1800