Sr-w5u auction alert!!!

[swiego]

My take on this discussion is that everyone should remind themselves that the rules for managing basic necessities are not the same as the rules governing disposable income, and vice versa. A person with the werewithal to take a $500 gamble should not assume everyone has equal opportunity to do so. A person who cannot afford such gambles should not assume that everyone else walks in similar shoes to his or her own.

[lordsmurf]

Maybe someone should come out with a Betamax Buying Guide like Lordsmurf's VHS guide!

Actually -- I already have one.

(Okay, you twisted my arm -- I'll put it up soon. The usual place.)

[Seeker47]

The only Beta models still floating around in working condition are the Sonys.

I'd add Sanyo to the list, they are the roaches of the Betamax world. Impossible to kill and ugly to look at. Their video quality was "meh", but they can be found at a thift store and repaired with a $15 belt and idler kit. The one thing that Beta fans hated about the machines was the fact that they threaded the tape back into the cassette every time you hit the stop button (like 80s VHS machines). This had a side effect of prolonging head life since the tape wasn't always running across it. They also make great dedicated rewinders as a result.

It's difficult to be certain now, but I think the first VCR I ever bought was a Sanyo Beta . . . with a wired remote ! Yes -- ugly and limited, but quite sturdy.

I thought that one of the major differences with VHS -- for any Beta deck -- was non-continuous contact with the tape heads. Contact was only when the tape was playing or recording ?

[orsetto]

I thought that one of the major differences with VHS -- for any Beta deck -- was non-continuous contact with the tape heads. Contact was only when the tape was playing or recording ?

Sanyo in its infinite wisdom decided to buck Sony and make its Beta clone transports function like a VHS transport of the period (tape retracts back to shell for any function other than record/play). I've never been sure what Sanyo's reasoning was, the "Beta Head Wear Issue" was greatly exaggerated. Its a fact that an early Sony BetaMax was more than 3x likely to need repair than an early VHS, but this was almost always mechanical and had nothing to do with head wear. Perhaps Sanyo felt that retracting the transport mechanism would avoid the mechanical issues that plagued Sony: evidence suggests the Sanyo transports were more reliable, tho the machines themselves often had fragile external buttons and levers that broke off during normal operation.

While one might well be able to find a cheap, functioning Sanyo today I would probably steer clear. Beta was not designed for internal cassette REW/FF operation: any slight misalignment of the cassette tray or irregularities in the tape shell could cause tape damage during FF/REW. I suppose you're just as likely to suffer damage from the tape being engaged at all times, but considering VHS later adopted the same "loaded at all times" transport philosophy it seems less worrisome.

[orsetto]

A person with the werewithal to take a $500 gamble should not assume everyone has equal opportunity to do so. A person who cannot afford such gambles should not assume that everyone else walks in similar shoes to his or her own.

True, but the likelihood of anyone actually blowing $500 on an obscure VCR of unknown provenance and warranty at this late stage of the home video game is pretty small. Even those with money to burn will want to know beforehand if the thing really will give them $500 worth of results. In the case of the SR-W5U or high-end ED BetaMax, the answer for most users of any budget range is "probably no". While it might be thoughtless or even rude for those of limited means to sneer at those who can afford such "gambles", it is equally thoughtless or rude for those with means to insist the gamble be justified when it usually isn't for the purposes under discussion: i.e., normal dubbing of normal consumer tapes to a digital recording device. If you can afford to gamble $500 on a JVC WVHS vcr just on the off chance it will arrive in operational condition and "totally blow away any other VCR ever made", more power to you, I'm sure we all wish you good luck. For most users, the $500 would be better spent acquiring both a Panasonic AG1980 and a JVC 9600 or 101 and having them professionally restored.

I am floored by the sudden emergence of JVC WVHS vcrs on eBay and elsewhere: there isn't a more obscure or "unobtainium" vcr to be found. Why the hell these are popping up now in places like Indiana pawn shops when the damn things were never even officially marketed in North America is a mystery. They remain fragile beasts akin to the "concept cars" at an auto show: not exactly daily drivers. Brand new or in mint condition they can deliver a sharper cleaner purer analog signal with cleaner audio to a DVD recorder or PC capture card. If you start messing with software filters or external TBCs that slight edge goes out the window, and if the WVHS comes to you misaligned or with bad cold solder joints in its multiple circuit boards (as has been the case for most buyers) you end up with a $500 door stop. There is nothing wrong with buying one if you can afford the risk and truly think the results might be worth it, but neither is it wrong for others to discuss the risks and rewards in detail or suggest other alternatives. The buyer should want some background before purchase other than "well, it was designed for analog HDTV and is very high spec and originally cost $5K so $500 seems like a steal".

Such caveats apply even more to the rare ultra-luxe Betamax models. Unlike Panasonic and JVC, Sony never dabbled with built-in TBC and DNR features, no matter how far up the model scale you go. The cult following for high end Beta models has much less to do with performance than rarity, collectible status and other factors. Pretty much any Sony BetaMax mfr'd between 1986 and 1997 will offer the same level of playback performance with standard Beta and SuperBeta recordings. The only things you gain with the rare, luxe models are features that were ho-hum common on midrange VHS models of the same period (jog/shuttle knobs, drop-down panels, over-fussy huge remotes, dopey digital EFX like solarizing and tiling). Because of its different consumer demographic, Sony charged an excessive premium for common VHS features like flying erase head. And of course the ultimate ED BetaMax was a pricey marvel that nearly no one outside Japan actually bought. Today, in 2011, for the purpose of dubbing a normal Beta or SuperBeta tape to digital, you will not use a flying erase head, or the ED Beta circuit. The "high-end" BetaMax models sell for $600-1200 based on rarity alone, they offer no practical performance advantage over a $200-300 "common" BetaMax unless you do plan to keep using the VCR as a daily driver recorder. The newer, fancier, expensive Betas are more fun to use, more convenient, and certainly offer more recording features (flying erase, flight deck remote, ED Beta). But none outperforms an SL-HF360 at playback by a huge margin. Again, absolutely nothing wrong with buying an $800 ED BetaMax if you want one and can afford it, as long as you know what that money does and does not get for you.

[NJRoadfan]

I thought that one of the major differences with VHS -- for any Beta deck -- was non-continuous contact with the tape heads. Contact was only when the tape was playing or recording ?

Sanyo in its infinite wisdom decided to buck Sony and make its Beta clone transports function like a VHS transport of the period (tape retracts back to shell for any function other than record/play). I've never been sure what Sanyo's reasoning was, the "Beta Head Wear Issue" was greatly exaggerated. Its a fact that an early Sony BetaMax was more than 3x likely to need repair than an early VHS, but this was almost always mechanical and had nothing to do with head wear. Perhaps Sanyo felt that retracting the transport mechanism would avoid the mechanical issues that plagued Sony: evidence suggests the Sanyo transports were more reliable, tho the machines themselves often had fragile external buttons and levers that broke off during normal operation.

While one might well be able to find a cheap, functioning Sanyo today I would probably steer clear. Beta was not designed for internal cassette REW/FF operation: any slight misalignment of the cassette tray or irregularities in the tape shell could cause tape damage during FF/REW. I suppose you're just as likely to suffer damage from the tape being engaged at all times, but considering VHS later adopted the same "loaded at all times" transport philosophy it seems less worrisome.

Tape damage was never a problem all the years we had a Sanyo. Most every Beta pro, including Mr. Betamax, advises the use of a dedicated winder to avoid head wear. He even recommends using Sanyo machine as a dedicated winder. Sony did make a dedicated winder and their playback only Betamax machines also unthreaded the tape back into the cassette for winding. Sanyo's reasoning for unthreading the tape was that their head design had issues with friction.

The reason for VHS machines unthreading was that JVC thought that it would allow for faster winding and that the M-load threading was stressful on the tape. These limitations were overcome by better transports. Ironically Sony offered a dedicated "Hi Speed Rewind" function on their VHS machines... it unthreaded the tape to rewind.

Maybe someone should come out with a Betamax Buying Guide like Lordsmurf's VHS guide!

Actually -- I already have one.

(Okay, you twisted my arm -- I'll put it up soon. The usual place.)

I was thinking about writing one up. I guess I don't have to now.

[Kenneth M]

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Well, finally after 3+ years, I've tried my $1200.00 investment in the SR-W5U and it works great. I did a quick compare vs that one and a multisystem European Panasonic NV-HS960 and the JVC deck is superior in every way. I'm glad my gamble paid off. The second SR-W5U that I have from Japan will go in my media transferring room. I hope that one tests good as well...


Since we're on the topic of Beta machines, this is my only Beta. Bought it off of bay and it is in immacualate condition. It is a Sony SL-800. Does everything you throw at it. I just really hope that it does as good with PAL that the high scale Sony PAL-only machines do...

Here's a pic of it:


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[NJRoadfan]

Since we're on the topic of Beta machines, this is my only Beta. Bought it off of bay and it is in immacualate condition. It is a Sony SL-800. Does everything you throw at it. I just really hope that it does as good with PAL that the high scale Sony PAL-only machines do...

Thats actually a SL-800ME, a rare Middle Eastern market multi-format machine. The only thing it lacks over dedicated PAL and NTSC machines is Beta hi-fi.

[robjv1]

I am floored by the sudden emergence of JVC WVHS vcrs on eBay and elsewhere: there isn't a more obscure or "unobtainium" vcr to be found. Why the hell these are popping up now in places like Indiana pawn shops when the damn things were never even officially marketed in North America is a mystery.

I too find it very strange.

I've tracked these things on eBay since about late 2006 / early 2007. In 2007- 2009, I think there were maybe 3 a year at most and all of them were sold by television stations.

In 2010 there were at least 10 and in 2011 there have already been at least 7. Most of them have been the typical "I have no idea how it works or how to test it, but I know it's the greatest ever, so $$$$" fare -- not too many coming out of racks or from users who seem to have used them for VHS to DVD conversions. I recall a couple of recent sales were leftover from hospitals.

What's tragic to me is that most of the damage to these machines is easily preventable. As long as you pack and ship these decks well and it actually gets to you in good shape -- they are remarkably durable, as long as you treat them with care. I run one of mine constantly and it's held up like a champ, aside from the occasional head cleaning. The easiest way to mess one up is by separating the audio connectors from the internal board, by using those RCA monster cables that are threaded to hang on for dear life.

The number of these decks that get broken isn't likely to drop if people keep shipping them like toys, instead of a twenty pound marvels of engineering with internal electronics packed to the gills. JVC really made a silly move with all the daughter-boards, although I'm not sure what a better design would have been, given that it can play WVHS, VHS, and SVHS all with the same transport mechanism.

It's too bad they didn't make a stripped down version, without the WVHS functionality.

[Seeker47]

Since we're on the topic of Beta machines, this is my only Beta. Bought it off of bay and it is in immacualate condition. It is a Sony SL-800. Does everything you throw at it. I just really hope that it does as good with PAL that the high scale Sony PAL-only machines do...

Thats actually a SL-800ME, a rare Middle Eastern market multi-format machine. The only thing it lacks over dedicated PAL and NTSC machines is Beta hi-fi.

I was wondering why there was Arabic writing at bottom of the Sony sticker at left, and it seems you have cleared that up. But why a PAL model for someone living in the States . . . unless there is a stack of PAL Beta tapes awaiting transfer ?

[Seeker47]

Maybe someone should come out with a Betamax Buying Guide like Lordsmurf's VHS guide!

Actually -- I already have one.

(Okay, you twisted my arm -- I'll put it up soon. The usual place.)

I was thinking about writing one up. I guess I don't have to now.

Since when is LS a Beta user. First we've heard of that . . . ?

OTOH, maybe all in a day's work for a pro video restorer: I can think of some out-of-print movie releases -- on Beta -- that I have seen on eBay over the years, which you maybe could not have found on VHS or LD, and which still remain unavailable in this country on DVD. Weird cases like that.

[jbd5010]

I am floored by the sudden emergence of JVC WVHS vcrs on eBay and elsewhere: there isn't a more obscure or "unobtainium" vcr to be found. Why the hell these are popping up now in places like Indiana pawn shops when the damn things were never even officially marketed in North America is a mystery.

I wonder how much this thread will contribute to that trend continuing? Haha

As far as my original Beta questions, it was just more of a curiosity, in case I ever get a request to transfer Beta tapes (hasn't happened yet) and I decide it's worth acquiring a machine, I know what to look for. Glad to hear that Sony's were fairly consistent across the board, much simpler than learning the ins and outs of VHS models!

[jbd5010]

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That TV stand looks like it came from an oversized doll house!

Haha, sorry, couldn't resist.

[NJRoadfan]

OTOH, maybe all in a day's work for a pro video restorer: I can think of some out-of-print movie releases -- on Beta -- that I have seen on eBay over the years, which you maybe could not have found on VHS or LD, and which still remain unavailable in this country on DVD. Weird cases like that.

There are a lot of early adopters out there that have really old off air recordings. Another big one is home movies, quite a few folks bought the original BetaMovie when it came out because it was the FIRST consumer level one piece camcorder solution. I'm in the latter party, my grandfather bought a BMC-110 BetaMovie new in 1983 and it remained in service until at least 1993 or so.

[lordsmurf]

Since when is LS a Beta user. First we've heard of that . . . ?

I do a lot of things you guys don't know about.

However, for Beta, a lot of the information I have comes from more experienced users. This was something I looked into several years ago, from necessity. (Trivia: A certain government, in one specific department, has training videos recorded to Betamax, including film-to-Beta transfers from the oldest footage. Did they even have Betamax cameras? I about fell out of my chair laughing when I got the project specs.)

........

Kenneth -- what the heck is that on the TV? It looks like a rat in Power Rangers costume.

[Seeker47]

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That TV stand looks like it came from an oversized doll house!

Haha, sorry, couldn't resist.

Actually, I once bought a small antique -- a decorative Moroccan box intended to hold cigarettes or candy -- that looked a bit like this, and I think such design motifs carry over to some larger furniture as well.

[Alex Trebek: did I just win something ?]

[Kenneth M]

NJRoadfan - Is Beta Hi-Fi needed for ex-rentals of the '80s? (Thx for clearing that up too. Yer right about it having ME at the end...)

Seeker47 - Nah, not a stack, but namely one very important ex-rental PAL Beta from Spain. There's a few others that are important but mostly I bought it for just a handful of transfers in both PAL and NTSC.

jbd5010 - Yeah, it's lively and different. It has purpose though with cooling fans that adjust speed with the temperature of the components. Our entire kitchen/living room is outfitted like such. The guy who builds these eccentricities calls it "furniture art." We can't help but agree. http://www.shoestringcreations.net/

lordsmurf - Close! It's a cat. Again, weird artsy fartsy crap adorns our living room. There's these tiny tribes of peeps that live in the southern tip of Mexico that makes this stuff. I'll post a pic of the power-rat later. We've got dragons made of paper mache, dragons made of wood eating antelopes and stuff. Just eclectic and kooky stuff you can't find at the local Crate and Barrel.

[NJRoadfan]

NJRoadfan - Is Beta Hi-Fi needed for ex-rentals of the '80s? (Thx for clearing that up too. Yer right about it having ME at the end...)

Beta Hi-Fi didn't appear on retail tapes until about 1984 or so in the US. They would be clearly marked regardless. The reason why it was likely left out is that NTSC and PAL machines write Hi-Fi audio very differently. NTSC units use the video heads, great because you don't have tracking issues with Hi-Fi audio like VHS. PAL machines use separate heads like VHS does since there wasn't enough room on the video track for the Hi-Fi carrier.

[Kenneth M]

NJRoadfan - Is Beta Hi-Fi needed for ex-rentals of the '80s? (Thx for clearing that up too. Yer right about it having ME at the end...)

Beta Hi-Fi didn't appear on retail tapes until about 1984 or so in the US. They would be clearly marked regardless. The reason why it was likely left out is that NTSC and PAL machines write Hi-Fi audio very differently. NTSC units use the video heads, great because you don't have tracking issues with Hi-Fi audio like VHS. PAL machines use separate heads like VHS does since there wasn't enough room on the video track for the Hi-Fi carrier.

Great info, thx!

[Kenneth M]

Would the new owner of the US W-VHS Cleaning Tape please pm me?

I have one with Japanese instructions and need to know how to use it properly to clean my SR-W5U!

Thanks much!

-Kenneth

[deadhead_]

Simply play it about 30 seconds. and that's all

[Kenneth M]

Simply play it about 30 seconds. and that's all

Thx deadhead!

[jbd5010]

Okay, now HERE'S an unreasonably priced item considering the (lack of) guarantees the seller makes:

http://cgi.ebay.com/K79234-JVC-SR-W320U-Video-Cassette-Recorder-/330557924140

[robjv1]

I saw that. I kinda want it, but not at that price and with that guarantee LOL.

Even though the SR-W5U and SR-W7U are supposedly cost-reduced versions of that deck, based on reviews and the service manual for the SR-W7U, the SR-W320 does a better job with the HD recording, but the TBC used with the SVHS/VHS side is not as good as the SR-W5U/7U. So for our purposes, it's more than likely a lesser deck.

[Kenneth M]

Yep. That and the transport on the SR-W320 is very problem-prone.

The same chassis and design was used for the S-VHS unit in Japan. They never had this unit as a W-VHS unit.

Studying the Yahoo Japan auctions over time I found that people there listed OEM Victor transports for those units and people there gobbled them up.

So it's just another problem about these units that made me care not to get one. (even though the faceplate opening looks mighty badass! lol)

[Seeker47]

Okay, now HERE'S an unreasonably priced item considering the (lack of) guarantees the seller makes:

http://cgi.ebay.com/K79234-JVC-SR-W320U-Video-Cassette-Recorder-/330557924140

Unless the posted photos are displaying distorted (which I've seen happen on occasion), the form factor on this -- more tall, less wide -- looks like one of those medical use / industrial models that used to be sold, probably for a very hefty price.

[robjv1]

Yes, the JVC SR-W320U was the precursor to the SR-W5U / SR-W7U, coming out in 1995. It retailed for $9,800 which is almost twice what the SR-W5U sold for. It seems to have better W-VHS performance than the proceeding decks (most people noted that the SR-W320U seemed to have a far more detailed picture), but lesser VHS/SVHS performance, according to JVC. The SR-W5U technical manual notes improvements in the Hadamard noise reduction circuits and the TBC performance (reduction of jitter, clamp streaking).

Also, here is a press release on the deck: http://pro.jvc.com/pro/users/appl/A1073.htm

[Kenneth M]

Here's the SR-W320 in S-VHS form for Japan... http://page6.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/f96343522

Again, they never made it as a W-VHS unit for Japan. The SR-W5U/SR-W7U are the top-of-the-line W-VHS units released in Japan. (Except called SR-W5/SR-W7)

[robjv1]

Sorry, yes I should have said the SR-W320U, which was the first W-VHS deck in America. The SR-W5U TBC is reportedly a modified version of the TBC in the HR-2000 deck. Looks like it weighs about twice as much as the SR-W5U/SR-W7U, tipping the scales at 40lbs / 18kg (!). What a nightmare to ship.

[Kenneth M]

Oh no no no... I wasn't correcting you at all! I was just giving the followers of this thread a little more info in correspondance with yours!

It is definitely heavy, though... Reminds me of Pioneer's flagship laserdisc player, the HLD-X0. (The absolutely positively best LD player in the world if you could afford the $8,000.00 price tag. It still gets that much these days, too.) That one tipped the scales at 36kg! To import one from Japan (it was only manufactured for the Japanese Domestic Market) it costs $1000.00 just for shipping!