Is upconverting DVD same as DVD with HDMI?

[coody]

I saw two descriptions of the regular DVD player in the market, upconverting DVD and DVD with HDMI digital output. Is an upconveting DVD player same as the DVD player with HDMI digital output or they are different?

[Baldrick]

It's usually the same. Some older DVD Players may have HDMI with no upconversion.

[yoda313]

Well and just to elaborate I don't believe upconversion is possible with just component cables. I believe all that will give you is progressive not upconverting (beyond the tvs native upconversion of course).

[RabidDog]

If you have a TV with HDMI then it will upconvert your vid anyway.. just done in Telly, not in CHeap vid player, so possibly better quality ($400 Tv vs $70 player) .............. ............ ............... ..... ..... ....... ................. ................... ..............

[coody]

I got a chance to test a DVD player with HDMI digital output. First, it is right. The upconverting DVD player means HDMI digital output ready. Second, it seemed no difference in the picture quality if the move is in the regular size unless the movie is wide screen. Is it correct? I am talking about upconverting (HDMI digital output ready) DVD player only.

[Krispy Kritter]

Up-conversion and HDMI are NOT the same thing. Up-conversion is the process of taking the 480P video from a DVD and increasing the resolution to 720P or 1080i/P for a HDTV. HDMI is a connection type (ie: cable type). Some up-converting players also have component outputs.

Bottom line, these type of players are intended for HDTV use. If you don't have a HDTV, then these players are pointless. All HDTV's scale/up-convert video inputs to match the native screen resolution anyway, so there is really no reason for an up-converting DVD player unless you plan on spending the money to get a player with highly rated capabilities.

[edDV]

One of the DVD players that upconverts to analog component is the JVC XV-N650. It drops component to 480p for commercial protected discs same as the HDMI output.

This player works great with my "HD Ready" CRT that lacks HDMI.

[fritzi93]

Here's my experience with a Philips DVP3962, HDMI, 720p/1080i upconverting player:

Compared to a 3 year old Sanyo DVD set-top with 480p output, it make a *dramatic* difference on a Vizio plasma, 720p. And I just got my wife a Philips 47" LCD, 120 Hz, 1080p for the living room. Same thing. Mind you, the upconverting player is the cheap Philips set-top one can get for $40 bucks at Wal-Mart.

Okay, those aren't high-end sets, but the Philips at least is their newer/better model and is fairly decent.

The best way I can describe the difference is this: I captured the first Narnia movie a few evenings ago on my HTPC, to which the Vizio is connected. The video was at 720p. I also have the DVD of the movie.

1) Standard player, 480p. Okay, if you don't know any better.
2) Upconverted DVD, 720p. Much better. (BTW, playing a DVD from the HTPC is nearly on par with the DVD upconverter.)
3) 720p broadcast. Obviously best of the three, but not full HD.

The thing is, the difference in quality as I perceive it is less between 2 and 3 than between 1 and 2. JMHO.

[edDV]

Let's try to understand this step by step.

Your Vizio plasma is probably native 1024x768 or 1366x768?
Your wife's 47" Philips LCD is 1920x1080p

Sanyo player is 3yrs old and progressive 480p
Philips DVP3962, HDMI, 720p/1080i upconverting player ("cheap" but current $40)

Captured "Narnia" 720p (probably ABC-Disney?)
Also have "Narnia" DVD (480p)

Now we need to separate the HDTV sets.

For 1,2,3 were you describing the Vizio or Philips TV? Did they differ?

"The thing is, the difference in quality as I perceive it is less between 2 and 3 than between 1 and 2. JMHO."

Question is:
Did this difffer for Vizio vs. Philips TV?
Also from above, what is the native resolution of your Vizio? Model numbers would help.

I ask because I can only observe a few models. I need more data.

[yoda313]

Just to clarify one thing krispy kritter said - "they are pointless if you don't have hdtv" (paraphrasing). That is not entirely true. If you have an older edtv that is 480p capable than at least having component connections will be helpful for outputting a progressive signal. But you would not be able to use a hdmi connection on a edtv as far as I know.

So yes for the most part upconverting players are meant for hdtv but they do have a limited use if you don't have a "real" hdtv - be it 1024x768, 1366x768 or a full 1080p.

[fritzi93]

@ edDV: Thanks for replying, your posts always teach me something.

TVs:

1) Vizio model VP422. 1024x768.
2) Philips model 47PFL 7403D/F7

DVD Players:

1) Philips DVP3962
2) Sanyo DVW-7100A

Everything else is correct as you have listed. When I was unpacking/setting up the Philips, I did connect it briefly to the HTPC and had a look. But it was brief. So my comparison of quality between 720p upconversion and 720p broadcast apply mainly to the Vizio. Haven't been able to compare *same* content in regard to 480p input versus 720/1080p otherwise. (I've calibrated both sets to the best of my ability using the THX Optimizer that's an extra on many DVDs.) My impression of the 720p broadcast on the Philips set was that it looked pretty much the same as on the Vizio.

For several days now, the Philips set-top has been connected to the new 47" Philips TV via HDMI, at 720p, and the Sanyo via component cables at 480p. We've been able to watch several movies using each. It doesn't take long to decide to quit using the Sanyo. (BTW, at first I thought something was wrong with the Sanyo and used a lens cleaner.)

You once listed several TV manufacturers by the quality of their electronics/video processing. Does it take a top-quality set to dispense with an upconverting player? Thanks.

[EDIT] On further thought, my impression of the new Philips TV is pretty much the same. DVDs at 480p, okay. DVDs at 720p, much better. 720p broadcast content, obviously best of the three, and it's immediately apparent. But it's a hell of a difference between DVDs at 480p and upconverted to 720p.

[fritzi93]

Clarification:

By "much better" I mean mainly sharpness and color saturation.

Both DVD players at defaults apart from output settings.

[coody]

I double checked the so called upconverting DVD player in a store. All upconverting DVD players have HDMI output. I have not seen an upconverting DVD player without HDMI output. I also double checked the picture quality. If the HDMI is set to 480p, there is no difference between the HDMI and Composite video connection. Only setting to 720p and 1080p, the HDMI connection shows better picture than the Composite connection. So, forget about upconverting. If your TV has the HDMI port, then you need to find a DVD player with the HDMI output ready.

[edDV]

Great input.

Three years produced great improvement of processing chips used in both progressive DVD players and progressive HDTV sets. By using progressive movie discs output as 480p and upscaled 720p, you were mainly testing the scaler in the new DVD player vs the Vizio TV scaler.

A tougher test of the TV would be a 480i feed (telecined) to see how that compares to the 720p feed. In that case, the TV would need to inverse telecine and then scale to 1024x768. If the DVD was from a 480i movie or drama broadcast, you would be comparing the DVD player processor directly to the TV processor for inverse telecine and scaling. You could do the same with the 1080p Philips TV by comparing 480i to 1080p out (if possible) from the same 480i source. Otherwise use 480i and 1080i settings.

You can do the same tests with a cable box to compare TV performance using 480i, 720p and 1080i box outputs. My bet is the Vizio plasma would look better being fed 720p while the Philips would probably look better with 1080i for drama and 720p for sports (especially from native 720p ABC/FOX/ESPN HD*).


* Other native 720p HD channels include Disney, Family, National Geographic. In many local communities PBS is broadcast as 720p to allow bandwidth for 2 additional SD subchannels.

[edDV]

I double checked the so called upconverting DVD player in a store. All upconverting DVD players have HDMI output. I have not seen an upconverting DVD player without HDMI output. I also double checked the picture quality. If the HDMI is set to 480p, there is no difference between the HDMI and Composite connection. Only setting to 720p and 1080p, the HDMI connection shows better picture than the Composite connection. So, forget about upconverting. If your TV has the HDMI port, then you need to find a DVD player with the HDMI output ready.

I think you must mean component rather than composite. Some DVD players will upscale to component outputs as well as HDMI. I have one (a JVC XV-N650) connected component 1080i to my "HD Ready" CRT with very good results.

Analog component will always look better than composite or S-Video.

[manono]

Yeah, I think if coody doesn't know the difference between composite and component that we can pretty much discount his reply.

I had an unconverting player for a couple of years with a DVI out. No HDMI.

You were viewing in a store? Good place to compare. Messed up lighting, uncalibrated sets, and that's if they're even set up correctly.

There's a substantial difference between viewing over component (giving you the benefit of the doubt here) and HDMI as using HDMI avoids the digital->analog->digital conversions which degrade the signal and introduce noise.

If the HDMI is set to 480p, there is no difference between the HDMI and Composite connection.

There is, and probably substantial, but you might not be able to tell the difference in a store. Again, this is assuming you meant to say component. If you really were comparing with a composite hookup, then you should have your eyes checked. However, if you have an upconverting player then you bought it to ... upconvert. If all you want to output from the player is 480p, then just get a regular old progressive scan player without upconverting abilities. Also, there are differences in the output depending on the quality of the player. I can easily believe that the upscaling of a decent HDTV will outperform that of a lousy upscaling player. They're not all created equal.

[edDV]

Analog component is used widely with success in broadcast facilities. The difference is the quality of the A/D, D/A processing. Consumer products use the cheapest analog parts with little invested in filtering.

Digital is sent via SDI (270 Mb/s, 1,485 Mb/s, 2,970 Mb/s).

HDMI is primarily for consumer DRM control but works well for short distances.

Get prepared for Display Port. This will replace DVI-I and HDMI for computer display connection. Apple and Dell are already using it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DisplayPort




dell_shows_off_superslim_display

http://www.gearlog.com/2007/05/dell_shows_off_superslim_displ.php

[fritzi93]

My bet is the Vizio plasma would look better being fed 720p while the Philips would probably look better with 1080i for drama and 720p for sports (especially from native 720p ABC/FOX/ESPN HD*).

Yes, I'm sure you're right. While I don't have a cable box, I have compared 720p versus 1080i on both sets, broadcast and 720p or 1080i using the upconverting player. What strikes me in particular is how much better the 720p ESPN feed looks (on both TVs) when watching football, as compared to football at 1080i on the local CBS HD channel.

Note that I'm not saying the upconversion makes the output comparable to HD, but such an obvious improvement in perceived quality over 480p is welcome. We still haven't heard from anyone who says flat-out that an upconverting player shows no noticeable improvement on their TV.

[edDV]

My bet is the Vizio plasma would look better being fed 720p while the Philips would probably look better with 1080i for drama and 720p for sports (especially from native 720p ABC/FOX/ESPN HD*).

Yes, I'm sure you're right. While I don't have a cable box, I have compared 720p versus 1080i on both sets, broadcast and 720p or 1080i using the upconverting player. What strikes me in particular is how much better the 720p ESPN feed looks (on both TVs) when watching football, as compared to football at 1080i on the local CBS HD channel.

Note that I'm not saying the upconversion makes the output comparable to HD, but such an obvious improvement in perceived quality over 480p is welcome. We still haven't heard from anyone who says flat-out that an upconverting player shows no noticeable improvement on their TV.

You should consider an HD cable box. Well worth the small premium. I now get 50 HD channels on Comcast plus all the VOD.

Upconverting players vary in performance but the generic chipsets have improved so much in the past 3 years that odds are there will be improvement especially vs. older and/or cheaper HDTV sets and projectors. Newer mid level HDTV sets will have similar upscale performance when fed 480i/576i from the DVD player. Real HD from a cable box or Blu-Ray player will look much better of course.

[fritzi93]

I'm looking into it, thanks. If not for one local channel my wife insists on having, I'd consider satellite. Oh well, stuck with Comcast I guess. :P

[Krispy Kritter]

Both Dish and DirecTV offer your local channels (in HD)...for most markets anyway.

[usually_quiet]

If you have a TV with HDMI then it will upconvert your vid anyway.. just done in Telly, not in CHeap vid player, so possibly better quality ($400 Tv vs $70 player) .............. ............ ............... ..... ..... ....... ................. ................... ..............

Sometimes the cheap DVD player does it better than the expensive TV. My parents bought a $600 (USD) 720p 450-series Samsung TV in May 2008. Yesterday, I helped them set up a $40 (USD) Philips DVP 3962 DVD player using an HDMI connection.

I tried playing a DVD with the TV doing the upscaling, and then with the player doing the upscaling. The TV's picture resize could not give me a letterboxed view where the video fit the screen exactly from left to right without distortion, but the DVD player set at 720p worked perfectly. Bottom line: the TV does an excellent job with 16:9 HD cable programing or resizing 480i cable programming, but the DVD player does a better job upscaling when playing DVDs.

[edDV]

And the HDTV sets vary in processing sophistication based on age (chip generations) and place in the product line hierarchy.

Most LCD HDTV manufacturers have budget models with generic or older chipsets (now either 720p or 1080p) as found in Walmart, Target, etc..
A good new DVD player can beat these.

Next tier would be 1080p @ 60Hz with better proprietary image processors.

Next tier would be entry 1080p @120Hz with basic motion frame interpolation.

Top tier offers more advanced frame interpolation + networking (DLNA and some even UPnP playback).