VHS to DVD 4 methods?

[mpack]

I would advise against PCM audio, as it requires too much space.

I agree - I should have said that more explicitly before.

Most all MPEG decoders can decode MPEG audio (MP2) too.

By "MPEG decoders" do you mean "DVD Players". If so, are you sure about that? I haven't actually seen a commercial DVD that used MPEG audio since the very early days of DVD, and I know that none of those produced audible audio in my high end Sony DVD player that I owned at the time. This admittedly is not a huge sample, and I haven't checked up on this issue in a long time, but I got the impression back then that since MPEG audio was almost never used (despite it being right there in the standard along with LPCM), the mfrs didn't put a lot of work into making sure it worked right. Hence my recommendation to avoid.

[DereX888]

I would advise against PCM audio, as it requires too much space.

I agree - I should have said that more explicitly before.

Most all MPEG decoders can decode MPEG audio (MP2) too.

By "MPEG decoders" do you mean "DVD Players". If so, are you sure about that? I haven't actually seen a commercial DVD that used MPEG audio since the very early days of DVD, and I know that none of those produced audible audio in my high end Sony DVD player that I owned at the time. This admittedly is not a huge sample, and I haven't checked up on this issue in a long time, but I got the impression back then that since MPEG audio was almost never used (despite it being right there in the standard along with LPCM), the mfrs didn't put a lot of work into making sure it worked right. Hence my recommendation to avoid.

MPEG Audio is withing DVD-Video specs.
Just because most of the commercial discs use AC3 it doesn't mean anything.

I am sure you haven't ever seen commercial DVD-Video disc using 352x240 MPEG-1 video stream, have you?
Yet is it is still perfectly valid DVD-Video spec, and every dvd player bearing DVD-Video logo *MUST* play it

[lordsmurf]

MP2 is not within the official NTSC DVD-Video specs, however it's part of the PAL specs. Most all MPEG decoder chips found inside DVD players play MPEG audio, for this reason. The same chips are used worldwide, and there are not many of them to be used. Lots of cheap "kit" pieces these days. You don't see many specialty in-house developed chips now.

[mpack]

Hmm. Now that you've clarified, I have to say that my position is the same as before!

In other words, MP2 still has a question mark beside it, however small, so should probably be avoided.

[DereX888]

MP2 is not within the official NTSC DVD-Video specs, however it's part of the PAL specs.

True, but as I have said few years ago on this board:
I haven't found a dvd-player incapable of playing NTSC DVD-Video discs with MP2 audio.
(and we've been searching for one like crazy!)
To day I still haven't seen one, so I ask again:
if anyone seen, knows or ever heard about one, please let us know

Most all MPEG decoder chips found inside DVD players play MPEG audio, for this reason. The same chips are used worldwide, and there are not many of them to be used. Lots of cheap "kit" pieces these days. You don't see many specialty in-house developed chips now.

That explains it, doesn't it

[Jim44]

Well, I think "incapable" is too strong, but my Oppo 980 had some "issues" out of the box with MP2 audio on DVDs. Fortunately, they are VERY good about firmware updates, and customer service in general, and the situation has been resolved.

From the Release Notes (emphasis mine):
"9. Improvements Based on User Provided Materials

This firmware version includes improvements made to enhance compatibility with some user provided materials. Although the product specification disclaims "Compatibility with user-encoded contents or user-created discs is on a best effort basis with no guarantee due to the variation of media, software and techniques used," OPPO tries very hard to accommodate customers' reasonable compatibility requests. This firmware version enhances compatibility to some DVD+R and DVD-R media, large Xvid files on USB drives, visibility/color of SRT subtitles, and recorded DVD with MPEG2 audio. These improvements are based on materials submitted by users. Thanks to all who provided materials for testing."

Cheers,
Jim

[DereX888]

Well, I think "incapable" is too strong, but my Oppo 980 had some "issues" out of the box with MP2 audio on DVDs. Fortunately, they are VERY good about firmware updates, and customer service in general, and the situation has been resolved.

From the Release Notes (emphasis mine):
"9. Improvements Based on User Provided Materials

This firmware version includes improvements made to enhance compatibility with some user provided materials. Although the product specification disclaims "Compatibility with user-encoded contents or user-created discs is on a best effort basis with no guarantee due to the variation of media, software and techniques used," OPPO tries very hard to accommodate customers' reasonable compatibility requests. This firmware version enhances compatibility to some DVD+R and DVD-R media, large Xvid files on USB drives, visibility/color of SRT subtitles, and recorded DVD with MPEG2 audio. These improvements are based on materials submitted by users. Thanks to all who provided materials for testing."

Cheers,
Jim

Well, if this player was R0 PAL/NTSC, it shouldn't and wouldn't have any problem with MP2 audio on any DVD-Video at all.
If it *is* region free and PAL/NTSC from the box, then it means it was designed wrong from the start and the firmware update corrected what was wrong with it from begining.
Also don't forget, that even if it wasn't capable of playing MP2 audio before firmware upgrade, it still means that the player itself was still able to play it, only its firmware was f*cked up and was preventing it.
Any firmware upgrade doesn't enhance your player's *hardware* capabilities, it merely corrects or opens (or locks) the "mini operating system's" features. If your player plays DVD with MP2 audio after firmware upgrade, it means your player was capable to play it from begining - only it was disabled or otherwise f*cked up in its software, thats all.

The only possibility to ever find the dvd player incapable of playing DVD-Video with MP2 audio would be a player using severely castrated version of firmware, where it would intentionally disable its own hardware's capabilities (i.e. older Sony dvd players incapable of VCD playback - which must have been disabled in their firmware since all the chipsets were exactly the same as in the no-brand player capable of VCD playback), or a player using some specially made chipsets, which is unlikely (as Smurf said earlier - they all use basically same few chipsets in all the players)

[KLouis22]

Being a novice compared to many of you, much of what I read is over my head. I captured a few concert video clips from VHS using aforementioned DVDExpress DX2. Each clip was done once with
MPEG-1 L2 audio and then with WAV(LPCM) to compare, because as I understand, the 1st is compressed audio, 2nd (WAV) is uncompressed audio, resulting in better audio quality, and read here it's file size is substantially larger.

I did 5 clips of different lengths both ways. Yes, size of WAV-audio file is larger than
MPEG-1 L2, but only by 20%, not significant to me. The real noticeable difference is in the audio sound, but this is where it gets confusing to me. Both are pleasant to listen to but definitely different. Both myself and others can't decide which sounds better, both sound good. I think the frequency response graph of WAV may be 'flatter' and more accurate, the other may have a rise in the higher end (above 12 or 14KHz or thereabout) but it's not unpleasant at all, just different. And we DID listen to both all the way through to see if MPEG1L2, or either, ultimately sounds annoying or bad in comparison.

I suppose this difference is natural, depending on each's technical factors in equalization, etc.??? But am somewhat surprised the difference is SO apparent even though neither is objectionable or unpleasant. I figured if there was a noticeable sonic difference it would be very slight.

One practical way to describe these, if anyone recalls 1970s audio scene and "EastCoast" (Acoustic suspension design, AR, KLH, Advent) vs. "WestCoast" (Ported bass, JBL, BIC) speakers;
MPEG1L2 is kinda like Eastcoast, thinner sound more emphasis on highs; WAV more WestCoast, 'heavier', 'presence', no emphasis on any part of frequency.

Anyone else have similar experience or know what I mean and why this is??

Next, the DVD blank issue, mentioned in this thread and I've read elsewhere. Please identify if the following are 'good', 'crap' or 'questionable quality discs, per your own experience or knowledge.
1) Ritek W01, supported write speed shown in my burn program shows only 2.4X.
2) Ritek R03-02, " " shows 2.4, 4 and 8X.
3) CMC MAG-M01-00, " " shows 4, 8, 12 and 16X.
The Riteks are Maxell, CMC is TDK. I keep reading that Verbatim and TY are the best there is, and wonder if those 3 are all inferior?

Sorry if my questions are too basic and show my ignorance; novices need all the help we can get.

[Jim44]

If it *is* region free and PAL/NTSC from the box, then it means it was designed wrong from the start and the firmware update corrected what was wrong with it from begining.

Probably the case. Happens sometimes. The fact that Oppo resolved it pretty quickly, based on user input isn't typical from a "consumer electronics" company.

Also don't forget, that even if it wasn't capable of playing MP2 audio before firmware upgrade, it still means that the player itself was still able to play it, only its firmware was f*cked up and was preventing it.
Any firmware upgrade doesn't enhance your player's *hardware* capabilities, it merely corrects or opens (or locks) the "mini operating system's" features. If your player plays DVD with MP2 audio after firmware upgrade, it means your player was capable to play it from begining - only it was disabled or otherwise f*cked up in its software, thats all.

Sorry, I'm not getting where the disdain in your response is coming from? I merely provided an example of a DVD player that, at one point, had some issues with playing MP2 audio. You asked to "let you know", so I did. You're welcome

And, BTW, I'm a hardware engineer and have written firmware in the past. I'm well aware of what a "firmware upgrade" entails, or doesn't.

or a player using some specially made chipsets, which is unlikely (as Smurf said earlier - they all use basically same few chipsets in all the players)

Either the 980 or 983 (or both, I forget which, I've been reading threads on both over at AVSForum ) use a custom version of the MediaTek chipset for some if the functions.

Jim

[DereX888]

Sorry, I'm not getting where the disdain in your response is coming from? I merely provided an example of a DVD player that, at one point, had some issues with playing MP2 audio. You asked to "let you know", so I did. You're welcome

And, BTW, I'm a hardware engineer and have written firmware in the past. I'm well aware of what a "firmware upgrade" entails, or doesn't.

Either the 980 or 983 (or both, I forget which, I've been reading threads on both over at AVSForum ) use a custom version of the MediaTek chipset for some if the functions.

Jim

No disdain there
I just pointed to the fact that firmware limitation cannot count as example since hardware is still capable, and mere change of firmware "fixes" the problem, thats all.

Custom design chipset is perfect example.
If those chipsets you've mentioned are indeed incapable of playing MP2 audio on NTSC DVD-Video discs, then perhaps we can finally find first such player

[lordsmurf]

The real noticeable difference is in the audio sound, but this is where it gets confusing to me. Both are pleasant to listen to but definitely different. Both myself and others can't decide which sounds better, both sound good. I think the frequency response graph of WAV may be 'flatter' and more accurate, the other may have a rise in the higher end (above 12 or 14KHz or thereabout) but it's not unpleasant at all, just different. And we DID listen to both all the way through to see if MPEG1L2, or either, ultimately sounds annoying or bad in comparison.

It depends on the compression encoding method, and what settings are automatically being applied. For example, what dynamic range is being set? How does the DVD player decoder differ in playing different sounds? It's not necessarily the format as other actions. I can hear compression artifacts from VHS tapes encoded to lower than 256k, but it's mostly because the "noise" (hiss, fuzz, etc) starts to distort worse. This is probably one reason 256k AC3 is the minimum on most all DVD recorders. I often encode noisy audio (restored or not) at 384k because of it. WAV works too, but the WAV is often indistinguishable from the high-bitrate AC3 or MP2 version. Then again, my PowerDVD install on my main system adds hiss to MP2. And WMP plays AC3 at a lower volume. But that's not a format issue, it's a player/encoding issue.

Next, the DVD blank issue, mentioned in this thread and I've read elsewhere. Please identify if the following are 'good', 'crap' or 'questionable quality discs, per your own experience or knowledge.
1) Ritek W01, supported write speed shown in my burn program shows only 2.4X.
2) Ritek R03-02, " " shows 2.4, 4 and 8X.
3) CMC MAG-M01-00, " " shows 4, 8, 12 and 16X.
The Riteks are Maxell, CMC is TDK. I keep reading that Verbatim and TY are the best there is, and wonder if those 3 are all inferior?
Sorry if my questions are too basic and show my ignorance; novices need all the help we can get.

See www.nomorecoasters.com for detailed information. In brief:
Ritek = mediocre/crap, CMC = mediocre/crap, Verbatim (Mitsubishi / MCC) = good, Taiyo Yuden = good

[AlanHK]

In other words, MP2 still has a question mark beside it, however small, so should probably be avoided.

I'll just point out that VCDs exclusively use MP2 audio. (Admittedly, at 44.1k and not 48k as DVDs.) And most DVD players can play VCDs (in fact, EVERY single DVD player I've used, but I'm sure someone has an exception.) So you'd expect the logic to be on the board.

And for a couple of years I was using MP2 audio on most of my DVDs, especially those I authored from MPEG1.

[lordsmurf]

I still use a lot of MP2, just to avoid re-compression of audio, in some situations. The only player that ever had a problem with my discs was a Pioneer DV333 that was made in the 1990s.

[olyteddy]

My Hauppauge PVR creates MP2 and I never bother to transcode it and I haven't had a problem with it either.