What causes this juddering or stuttering artifact on captured video?

[brassplyer]

I find that when I capture video from a DVD player through my Digital8 camcorder, the resulting image always seems to have issues with sideways panning motion, what I'm calling a "juddering" effect. The original DVD doesn't do this. I also get the same issue when I capture film using this same camcorder. It can't be blamed on the flash video, the original AVI files do it too no matter what player I use and it's visible on DVD's of captured film I'v made.

I made a YouTube video of a short example. Noticeable from about :04 - watch the neck of the champagne bottle, the curtains, the lampshade.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clq2UOb76D8

What's causing this and what can be done about it? It only seems to be an issue with horizontal motion.

Thanks for all input.

[2Bdecided]

So you're trying to copy DVDs by playing them on a DVD player, capturing the analogue output with a Digital8 camcorder, routing this into a PC via Firewire, capturing as DV-AVI, MPEG-2 encoding, and then burning the result onto DVD-R?

And you want people here to help you with this?

[guns1inger]

The only way you could do this more wrongly would be to simply film the TV screen while the DVD played. Do you not have a DVD drive in your PC ?

If you do, start doing tome reading

https://forum.videohelp.com/topic157688.html

https://forum.videohelp.com/topic283172.html

[jagabo]

You're problem is blend deinterlacing of a telecined film source. Your DV AVI needs to be inverse telecined before any further processing.

Obviously, ripping a DVD will be superior in every way. But you will run into the same problem recording off a cable box, satellite box, or off-air tuner.

[brassplyer]

So you're trying to copy DVDs by playing them on a DVD player, capturing the analogue output with a Digital8 camcorder, routing this into a PC via Firewire, capturing as DV-AVI, MPEG-2 encoding, and then burning the result onto DVD-R?

And you want people here to help you with this?

If I wanted to be Billy Bootlegger there are plenty of apps out there that allow ripping of DVD's, some of which I believe are referenced on this site. If you'll notice, I also said I get the same problem with capturing home film.

If it makes you feel better, the reason I was trying to utilize a short segment of a high quality source was part of trying to get to the bottom of problems I was having making making .flv files. I wanted to prove to myself that the flv app could make a decent looking file. Then I noticed this issue that I've seen with film capture as well. I just haven't mastered using a VOB to AVI app yet and this seemed like a good alternative.

[brassplyer]

The only way you could do this more wrongly would be to simply film the TV screen while the DVD played. Do you not have a DVD drive in your PC ?

Right, I understand there are ripping apps, I just wanted a short segment of a high quality source to use to create a test .flv file. And I haven't as yet become facile with a VOB to AVI app so thought I'd try this as a quickie method. It occurred to me that this is the exact same thing that happens when I capture film so it's an issue I want to get to the bottom of.

[jagabo]

the exact same thing that happens when I capture film

How are you capturing film? One of those little projecter telcine machines and a DV camcorder? Again, you'll need to inverse telecine before any further processing.

[SCDVD]

so thought I'd try this as a quickie method.

Have you heard the expression "quick and dirty"? Not only did you pick a quick method, you picked a dirty method as well.

[brassplyer]

the exact same thing that happens when I capture film

How are you capturing film? One of those little projecter telcine machines and a DV camcorder? Again, you'll need to inverse telecine before any further processing.

Is it more complex than simply checking the "reconstruct from fields" box under Frame Rate on VDub? Trying that on the same file that I just posted above - the capture off a DVD player - seems to have no effect on the artifact.

[jagabo]

Is it more complex than simply checking the "reconstruct from fields" box under Frame Rate on VDub?

Yes. VirtualDub's automatic IVTC doesn't work very well. Its manual method works well if your telecine pattern is perfect -- and you're dealing with normal 3:2 pulldown and 23.976 fps film. Perfect captures from a DVD player will IVTC very well. Home movies don't use that frame rate so it gets more complicated.

TMPGEnc Plus has a very flexible manual inverse telecine function. It can restore any film frame rate. But again it requires very clean telecine patterns. And it's not easy to use.

Your best bet is AviSynth. Using functions like Yadif() to bob the video then TDecimate() to remove duplicate frames. If you post a short segment of your DV AVI files someone will probably give you an AviSynth script.

[RickA]

The other posters in this thread are way smarter about vid stuff than I am. I'm just trying to follow along. I'll freely admit to knowing sod all about the way you are attempting to record your test vid.

Not sure if you are recording the camera input from dvd to tape first. Or passing the signal straight through via fireware to record with computer. A couple thoughts did occur to me. Could the camcorder shutter speed be affecting / out off sync with the 29.97fps dvd input the way you are making your recording? If the camera is set to record at 30 or 60fps and you are feeding it a 29.97fps signal... -shrugs-

On a tanget from that thought I remember reading a really interesting article on video deshakers awhile back. Wish I remembered more of it. They talked about how cameras tend to lose focus or motion blur during heavy panning / zooming. Something to do with the landscape objects moving faster relatively to the shutter speed of the camera - so they blur. If the sync issue I mentioned above is affecting you. Then that could explain in part your juddering effect during panning moments.

Or, I could be completely, totally and utterly wrong, haha! In which case I will shut up and let the experts continue to hash out the problem with you. Good luck.

Cheers,
Rick

Added* Oh, yeah. Aren't most camcorders BFF and most dvd / any other type of vid TFF? That be some kind of monkey wrench in your project?

[brassplyer]

Not sure if you are recording the camera input from dvd to tape first. Or passing the signal straight through via fireware to record with computer.

Via Firewire/passthrough.

[DereX888]

So you're trying to copy DVDs by playing them on a DVD player, capturing the analogue output with a Digital8 camcorder, routing this into a PC via Firewire, capturing as DV-AVI, MPEG-2 encoding, and then burning the result onto DVD-R?

And you want people here to help you with this?

If I wanted to be Billy Bootlegger there are...

Yet that's exactly what you are trying to be, exactly a Billy Bootlegger (but in some hillbilly hilarious form ).
Just because you're using possibly the most inferior and idiotic way to "rip" a DVD it makes you think you are not "billy bootlegger"?

brassplyer, this topic and your original post is my nomination to the 2008 Most Stupid Post on VH contest

[brassplyer]

If I wanted to be Billy Bootlegger there are...

Yet that's exactly what you are trying to be, exactly a Billy Bootlegger (but in some hillbilly hilarious form

I guess you didn't bother to read my previous post

...the reason I was trying to utilize a short segment of a high quality source was part of trying to get to the bottom of problems I was having making making .flv files. I wanted to prove to myself that the flv app could make a decent looking file.

Or you simply lack the acumen to process what I said. I have no desire to sell bootleg DVD's, I was just looking to make a quick capture of a segment of video to experiment with.

brassplyer, this topic and your original post is my nomination to the 2008 Most Stupid Post on VH contest

Like many others, I come here seeking information. If I knew it all, I wouldn't be here. I sincerely appreciate those who take the time to share what they know. I find that it's a fact of life on forums like this, Usenet etc. that there are folks like you - smarmy, condescending, pointlessly uncivil, pencil-dicked ******** who like to pretend they were born knowing everything and gain some perverse satisfaction hurling unprovoked insults at people anonymously - got your ass beat a lot in high school (where you may still be) or you just came out of the box miswired. Who cares. I'm sure your parents didn't.

I also find it's also universally true that people like you never know so much that your input is indispensable.

I assure you pal, there are things I can do in which you wouldn't be at the level of a fumbling neophyte.

FOAD with my compliments.

[SCDVD]

Brassplyer, you don't need to rupture your spleen over this. The ultra crude method you used to transfer your DVD is one of the ways that the lowest tier bootleggers use to copy DVDs. If you are working on producing .flv video files, why would you do something to make sure that you have a bad source video to start with? You know the old cliche - Garbage in, garbage out. You will never get a good flash video with the pig swill that you are starting with. There are 478 ways to accomplish what you are trying to do that are better than what you are trying.

We often have bootleggers show up on this site and they don't get a friendly reception. This site isn't Warez friendly. When you walk like a duck, talk like a duck etc., some people are going to say you are a duck. There are a lot of people on this site that would be very helpful to you but if you sign up with a 'tude, complete with a salvo of profanity, you won't make a lot of friends here.

[brassplyer]

Brassplyer, you don't need to rupture your spleen over this. The ultra crude method you used to transfer your DVD is one of the ways that the lowest tier bootleggers use to copy DVDs.

Perhaps so, in this case it's just part of a learning process. I see this effect doing trying to solve one issue which reminds of another problem I've had.

If you are working on producing .flv video files, why would you do something to make sure that you have a bad source video to start with?

Initially not realizing this would happen - and currently lacking an app to convert short sections of a DVD to avi. However as it turns out in this case it's just as well since it leads me on a path to solving 2 different problems.

When you walk like a duck, talk like a duck etc., some people are going to say you are a duck.

Except when I've already stated quite clearly what my goals are and someone continues to hurl insults in addition to calling me a liar lacking any evidence to that effect. People used to fight duels over that kind of thing. Of course pissants like him don't shoot off their bazoo in the real world where they might actually face consequences for it.

There are a lot of people on this site that would be very helpful to you but if you sign up with a 'tude, complete with a salvo of profanity, you won't make a lot of friends here.

I appreciate those who are willing to help, I have no use for nor feel compelled to sit silently regarding those like Derex. Why don't you direct the comments re: a 'tude toward him? Wasting bandwidth and imparting no information.

I work in the public schools and some kids who get their asses kicked thoroughly deserve it.

[jagabo]

Attached is a small DV AVI file created from a 23.976 fps source with hard 3:2 pulldown applied. This is similar to what you would get recording the composite or s-video output of a DVD player with a DV camcorder. This is also what you would get recording a movie off air, cable, or satellite.

The DV AVI file can be inverse telecined with VirtualDub's "Frame Rate..." conversion" set at "Reconstruct from fields manual" with the Offset set to 3, and Invert Polarity checked. Included in the archive is an Xvid AVI made with IVTC and another made with a blend deinterlace (like in your youtube sample).

If you single step through blend deinterlaced Xvid AVI file you'll see that two out of every five frames looks like a double exposure. The IVTC'd file doesn't have that problem and has succesfully restore the 23.976 fps film frames.

This technique won't work for 8mm film because it is 18 fps.

telecined.zip

Crap. The file was just under the 6 MB file size limit but VideoHelp rejected it saying the max file size was 2 MB?

[brassplyer]

Attached is a small DV AVI file created from a 23.976 fps source with hard 3:2 pulldown applied.
telecined.zip

I appreciate it, but I'm getting a 404 error with the link.

[jagabo]

Attached is a small DV AVI file created from a 23.976 fps source with hard 3:2 pulldown applied.
telecined.zip

I appreciate it, but I'm getting a 404 error with the link.

Note the comment I added at the bottom of my previous post. Let me work something else out...

OK, you should be able to get it from here:

http://www.mediafire.com/?0n1pdm5xizs

[DereX888]

When you walk like a duck, talk like a duck etc., some people are going to say you are a duck.

Except when I've already stated quite clearly what my goals are and someone continues to hurl insults in addition to calling me a liar lacking any evidence to that effect. People used to fight duels over that kind of thing. Of course pissants like him don't shoot off their bazoo in the real world where they might actually face consequences for it.

There are a lot of people on this site that would be very helpful to you but if you sign up with a 'tude, complete with a salvo of profanity, you won't make a lot of friends here.

I appreciate those who are willing to help, I have no use for nor feel compelled to sit silently regarding those like Derex. Why don't you direct the comments re: a 'tude toward him? Wasting bandwidth and imparting no information.

I work in the public schools and some kids who get their asses kicked thoroughly deserve it.

IMHO you're full of shit.
Certainly you won't get any help from me.
If it wasn't for my education and training, I would have with pleasure accepted your invitation to any duel, just because I know I'm better than you, and I love to clip the 'tude of an ********

[brassplyer]

When you walk like a duck, talk like a duck etc., some people are going to say you are a duck.

Except when I've already stated quite clearly what my goals are and someone continues to hurl insults in addition to calling me a liar lacking any evidence to that effect.

I appreciate those who are willing to help, I have no use for nor feel compelled to sit silently regarding those like Derex.

IMHO

Never has there been an opinion more worthy of being humble.

Certainly you won't get any help from me.

I suspect I'll manage.

If it wasn't for my education and training,

And yet with all your "education and training" you're still a tactless punk. All you've done here is re-demonstrate this in glorious Technicolor. You're not even man enough to say "hey guy, maybe I was out of line"

I would have with pleasure accepted your invitation to any duel

Though I didn't challenge you to a duel, I'm quite aware you don't do mano y mano. Except maybe at local park restrooms late at night.

and I love to clip the 'tude of an ********

Grammatical issues much?

Attitude? Let's recap the events which are quite visible for all to see - I asked a question about why I was getting a particular effect due to recording DVD output. Someone jumped to an assumption as to why I might be doing it this way.

I explained, in English, that I was simply trying to capture a short segment of relatively high resolution video to test making .flv files. I also stated I wasn't previously aware this would have issues. However, since this was happening, it seemed to be something I should understand.

I *also* pointed out that I'm quite aware of apps to copy protected DVD's if that's what I was after.

I'll repeat that for you. I'm aware there are apps to rip copy-protected DVD's.

I'll give you a moment to let that point sink in.

|
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Now, tell me Poindexter, if I wanted to bootleg movies, given that I already know how to copy them quickly, with good quality, does it make any sense that I would use a real-time playback method to capture them?

At this point is when you came barging in, wagging your stubby little cocklet making comments about brainless, half-assed hillbilly methods of doing things, stupidest post on VH etc.

Now, for some reason, what I assume is one of your buddies, in this odd social phenomenon that seems to occur in forums like this, seemed inclined to turn a blind eye to *your* world-class assclownery and starts to lecture me on having an "attitude" when I invited you to kiss my ass and accurately defined exactly what you are.

I see no subsequent reason to amend that assessment.

[brassplyer]

OK, you should be able to get it from here:

http://www.mediafire.com/?0n1pdm5xizs

Thanks. I loaded them, the IVTC sample is obviously smoother. Where I see it the most obviously is the end of that one "frame" that tumbles in from the right side toward the center.

[Nelson37]

Do I understand correctly that your ultimate goal is to process home movies?

And you are using the DVD source as a test to help eliminate issues, but this will NOT be your usual source? Assuming this is correct, this accounts for the unusual capture technique as a test method. I've done similar things myself in order to isolate particular issues.

This question of source is very important as, SFAIK, home movies will NEVER require IVTC as they are not telecined. Therefore, solving the apparent issue with IVTC techniques will be of no use for the home movies.

Field order is the usual culprit.

I haven't looked at the samples as it took too long to wade through the unnecessary crap-slinging.

[DereX888]

Never has there been an opinion more worthy of being humble.

I suspect I'll manage.

And yet with all your "education and training" you're still a tactless punk. All you've done here is re-demonstrate this in glorious Technicolor. You're not even man enough to say "hey guy, maybe I was out of line"

Though I didn't challenge you to a duel, I'm quite aware you don't do mano y mano. Except maybe at local park restrooms late at night.


Grammatical issues much?


Now, tell me Poindexter, if I wanted to bootleg movies, given that I already know how to copy them quickly, with good quality, does it make any sense that I would use a real-time playback method to capture them?

At this point is when you came barging in, wagging your stubby little cocklet making comments about brainless, half-assed hillbilly methods of doing things, stupidest post on VH etc.

Now, for some reason, what I assume is one of your buddies, in this odd social phenomenon that seems to occur in forums like this, seemed inclined to turn a blind eye to *your* world-class assclownery and starts to lecture me on having an "attitude" when I invited you to kiss my ass and accurately defined exactly what you are.

I see no subsequent reason to amend that assessment.

It would have been funny if not for the fact you came to VH with questions - thus it is only lame at best, I'm afraid
But hey, keep writing, you're doing better than many hollywood scriptwriters already

[brassplyer]

Do I understand correctly that your ultimate goal is to process home movies?

It wasn't part of my original quest, but it became part of it as I went. My original issue was in making .flv files. I wanted to have a good, relatively hi-res source file to see how good resulting .flv files looked in comparison since all I had was samples taken off VHS tape. Rather than go through the process of ripping an entire chapter to mpeg (Pinnacle Studio will do this) I figured I'd knock out a short segment by playing it realtime, since I don't have an app to convert to avi.

Except, when I tried it I noticed this horizontal stuttering like I get when I capture film. So, it seemed the two might be related.

And you are using the DVD source as a test to help eliminate issues, but this will NOT be your usual source?

Basically. But I did notice when I applied the inverse telecine ViaVirtualdub to the afflicted files, it did pretty much cure it, though there were still some "tearing" artifacts.

Assuming this is correct, this accounts for the unusual capture technique as a test method. I've done similar things myself in order to isolate particular issues.

This question of source is very important as, SFAIK, home movies will NEVER require IVTC as they are not telecined. Therefore, solving the apparent issue with IVTC techniques will be of no use for the home movies.

Field order is the usual culprit.

I captured them real time through a Digital8 camera Firewire onto the h/d. Works great except for the aforementioned issue. Images are sharp, excellent color. It's been a while since I fooled with them but my recollection is I did try reversing the field order and it didn't fix the problem, only created others.

It's not clear to me why the DVD passthrough capture does this though. Isn't the DVD material 29.97?

[jagabo]

Isn't the DVD material 29.97?

No, the DVD material is 23.976 fps with pulldown flags that tell the DVD player how to produce the 59.94 fields per second required for NTSC broadcast (or s-video, or composite). When the DV camcorder captures this it weaves pairs of fields together into frames creating 29.97 frames per second. But 2 out of every 5 of those frames contains fields from two different film frames. In a pattern that looks like:

PPPIIPPPIIPPPII...

Where P represents the progressive frames (both fields from the same film frame) and I represents frames which contain fields from two different film frames. Also, recording analog output from the DVD player will result in added noise to every frame, a little blurring (especially the chroma channels), and some loss of color accuracy. Maybe not so much that you care though.

The frames in the FLV you linked to were obviously created by bluring these pairs of fields together creating frames that looked like double exposures out of all the ones that contain fields from two different film frames. If you step through your video frame by frame this is obvious. The strobing you see at normal playback speed is because the video is alternating between the 3 clear frames and the 2 blended frames. Here's a clear frame and a blended frame from your MP4 file:



It will be much easier (and cleaner) for you to rip the VOB files off the DVD rather than trying to IVTC the captured frames. Use a program like VirtualDubMod which will read the progressive VOB frames (right off the DVD if it's not encrypted) then save them as AVI. That will get you much cleaner video with 23.976 progressive fps.

If you're going to work with 8mm or super 8mm film captured with a simple telecine device and camcorder you will have similar problems (but a much harder IVTC) and a lot of flickering to deal with too. If you can, find a DV camcorder with a 29.97 fps progressive mode. That way you will only have duplicate frames and flickering to deal with.

[sambat]

You mean like a snooty country club, where long-in-the-tooth debenture holders set the standards that the unwashed are expected to keep to - and keep their place?

Well said and well deserved.

... in this odd social phenomenon that seems to occur in forums like this,