Are there any external HDs I can capture to?...

[Mark Smith]

...not store, but capture.
Thanks,
Mark

[edDV]

What format? Uncompressed needs and internal drive and is best with a dedicated RAID zero (separate from OS drive)

DV @ 3.8MB/s (~30Mb/s) is slow enough to make it to an external firewire or USB drive. Since the CPU is in the loop as disk controller for USB2, frame loss can occur if the CPU is busy doing something else.

Where possible capture to an internal drive separate from the OS drive. Disc control is in hardware and PCI bus mastering separates the OS operations from the capture.

With a 3GHz machine you are probably safe capturing to USB2 so long as the CPU doesn't get too busy. Older slower machines and laptops have more difficulty.

[redwudz]

If you have a spare SATA connection on your motherboard, you can get a SATA PCI slot adapter and use a external SATA hard drive. An external SATA drive will operate exactly the same as an internal SATA drive.



Some external SATA enclosures here: http://www.cooldrives.com/sataenclosures.html

(Note that E-SATA uses a different external cable.)

[Mark Smith]

"Uncompressed needs and internal drive and is best with a dedicated RAID zero (separate from OS drive)"I have Pinnacle Studio 9+. As a matter of fact, this is my situation. OS drive, and Data drive. I assume the OS drive tells the computer (because of the software) where to place the captures (the Data/Capture Drive). (“Disc control is in hardware and PCI bus mastering separates the OS operations from the capture. “ Sorry.)
In Pinnacle's KnowledgeBase I found out I am talking about a "Network" drive and that Pinnacle “does not support capture using a network drive” because all associated video files need to be stored locally for editing. Understood.

I just chatted with a tech there and he wouldn’t really address my question of capturing externally > import captures locally > edit. He kept thinking capture internally > use network drive for safe storage. No.

[Mark Smith]

An external SATA drive will operate exactly the same as an internal SATA drive. Really? I did not know that. I'll check that out. Thanks.

[Mark Smith]

redwudz - How would I actually capture with this? I've never had an external HD. Is there a "Save" button on it? The record button on my camcorder is only for its own tape, isn't it?
Would it save it as an .avi?

[edDV]

So you want to capture uncompressed and can't dedicate a separate internal drive? That is what should be used for uncompressed capture. Equally effective is redwudz' suggestion of an external SATA drive run from a motherboard SATA controller or from a PCI card SATA controller.

FireWire 800 IEEE-1394 may work. USB2 will struggle. In best cases my USB2 drive can only maintain 22-30MB/s sustained.

A network drive is much slower in most cases. Gigabit ethernet has a high CPU load at each end. A multi-core CPU machine seems to handle this better than single core. If I do a transfer from a P4 2.4GHz machine to a Core2 Duo over gigabit ethernet the P4 CPU is pegged just to support the transfer. Sustained transfer speed is no better than ~30-35MB/s (~240-280Mb/s) which is much slower than an internal drive (40-60MB/s PATA/SATA). A faster WD Raptor will run 50-90MB/s internally.

Pros use serial digital SDI hardware transfer to and from central video servers. SDI has no CPU overhead and runs each feed at 270-1600Mb/s.

[edDV]

redwudz - How would I actually capture with this? I've never had an external HD. Is there a "Save" button on it? The record button on my camcorder is only for its own tape, isn't it?
Would it save it as an .avi?

You would still need capture software on the computer. An external SATA drive looks just like an internal drive to the software.

What camcorder are you using? Is this a broadcast camera with SDI?

[Mark Smith]

" Is this a broadcast camera with SDI?" Not sure. I have Sony's DCR-TRV 240 D8 w/ IEEE and USB. Speaking of this, I actually dropped the thing, and now the tape portion doesn't work. About $2-300 to have it fixed.
So I thought (after seeing camcorders on the market that can now capture to its own HD), wouldn't it be cool to bypass the tape part that doesn't work now, and go straight into a HD - in the field...because I can of course do it in my bedroom where my computer is.
So, if I "still need the capture software" then the answer to my original question is "No-I cannot capture externally."
So, what you guys are talking about is really still internal capture yet using an external/network HD. Correct?

[edDV]

" Is this a broadcast camera with SDI?" Not sure. I have Sony's DCR-TRV 240 D8 w/ IEEE and USB. Speaking of this, I actually dropped the thing, and now the tape portion doesn't work. About $2-300 to have it fixed.
So I thought (after seeing camcorders on the market that can now capture to its own HD), wouldn't it be cool to bypass the tape part that doesn't work now, and go straight into a HD - in the field...because I can of course do it in my bedroom where my computer is.
So, if I "still need the capture software" then the answer to my original question is "No-I cannot capture externally."
disk So, what you guys are talking about is really still internal capture yet using an external/network HD. Correct?

Why are you capturing uncompressed from that camcorder? DV over IEEE-1394 results in a 1:1 duplicate of your video on tape to hard disk at much lower disk speeds and space. You should be editing in DV format with a DV camcorder. So the cam is broken. You can still record the live output of that cam over IEEE-1394.

Hard disk camcorders encode to MPeg2 in the camcorder. This is lower quality than DV format. Hard disk camcorders usually transfer files over USB2 to the internal drive so again uncompressed capture is not an issue.

[edDV]

So, if I "still need the capture software" then the answer to my original question is "No-I cannot capture externally."
So, what you guys are talking about is really still internal capture yet using an external/network HD. Correct?

Yes we are talking about computer disk drives.

I don't understand what you want to so. Are you trying to capture without a computer? A DVD recorder with a DV (IEEE-1394) port is one way to get from the camcorder to a DVD without a computer in the loop. A DV format camcorder is better for this than a MPeg2 hard disk camcorder.

[Mark Smith]

Thank you for yourattention and patience.
"Why are you capturing uncompressed from that camcorder?" Because my software edits better in uncompressed .avi. Like in audio recording, I prefer the cleanest signal during the editing phase, and then when all is produced, then render it to a compressed mpeg. It's just my style (or perhaps a lack of understanding).

"You should be editing in DV format with a DV camcorder." DV format is uncompressed, right? And I thought this was a DV camcorder, yet doing both analog and digital.
"You can still record the live output of that cam over IEEE-1394." Yes. I have. In my bedroom, with the computer. But not in the field. The field needs a tape, yet I'm looking to connect this cam to a HD. And, if I have it right, what I want would be better than a Hard Disk Camcorder. Going into an external HD as .avi vs. going into a HD Cam as .mpg2.

[Mark Smith]

edDV re: your 16:41 post - "Are you trying to capture without a computer?" Yes, you understand.

[redwudz]

Sorry, I think I finally realized what you are asking. To transfer DV to a exernal hard drive without using a computer would require a hard drive set up with a specialized controller. These are commonly used for high end DV type cameras, such as news crews, etc. Very expensive.

There may be a few lower end DV/portable hard drives out there, but not very common. Here's one of the more inexpensive ones: http://store.mcetech.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=QSDV-90&Categ...roduct_Count=0

[Mark Smith]

Yep! Here ya go..."When shooting has been completed, simply unplug the QuickStream DV from your camera's FireWire (1394, i.Link, etc.) port and plug it into your NLE system's FireWire port and begin editing your footage IMMEDIATELY." That's it.

I told the Tech at Pinnacle (Pinnacle users laugh here!) that in todays world it makes sense to capture video in this way. I mean, we've gone from VHS to Hi8 to D8 to MiniDV to DVD. It just makes simple sense (for the consumer) to go straight the a HD. I mean, the physicality of our immediate video storage is getting smaller and smaller.

You know (for me personally), being that I was looking at about a $300 repair bill I thought about simply getting another camcorder. But then I thought but I like the one I have. Hense this marrage idea - without the computer. And it would be uncompressed DV, not compressed mpeg. So, to me, if this thing actually does what it says, the price tag is actually somewhat ok.

[Mark Smith]

And thanks for this...
"To transfer DV to a exernal hard drive without using a computer would require a hard drive set up with a specialized controller. These are commonly used for high end DV type cameras, such as news crews, etc. Very expensive.
"

[edDV]

There are various kinds of "avi"

Fully uncompressed 8bit SD 720x480i video results in 70-100GB files per hour. Transferring data realtime at that rate requires a very fast hard drive system usually a RAID. Some capture at these uncompromising rates but they pay with failed captures and dropouts unless the computer is up to the task. I'll skip for now the "pro" setup with RAID and SDI hardware device interface. Regualar folks use the CPU for real time "lossless" compression using a codec like huffyuv to effectively lower the bit rate from 70-215Mb/s down to a more manageable 30-40Mb/s (~18GB/hr) which is inside the performance of a well maintained internal drive.

DV compresses in frame 5x using DCT compression. This plus 4:1:1 sampling results in a ~28Mb/s stream to tape (~13.5GB/hr). This is what gets streamed to the hard drive over IEEE-1394. It is a 1:1 duplication to hard drive. Capturing DV as analog at higher bit rate gets lower quality. Consumer camcorder analog I/O uses dimestore parts. This isn't "cleaned". It is "soiled". All sorts of D/A A/D issues are introduced.

Pinnacle and other software allow direct import of digital DV over IEEE-1394. You edit in DV format and encode MPeg2 from there to DVD. DV format includes all entact frames. Editing, cueing and scrubbing is fast.

But not in the field. The field needs a tape, yet I'm looking to connect this cam to a HD. And, if I have it right, what I want would be better than a Hard Disk Camcorder. Going into an external HD as .avi vs. going into a HD Cam as .mpg2.

Yes such devices exist but cost >$600.
http://www.videoguys.com/FireStore.html

They record the DV stream to a drive over IEEE-1394.

It would be cheaper to buy a used DV (MiniDV or D8 ) camcorder off Craigslist.

[Mark Smith]

Thanks guys! You have definitely pointed me in the right direction. To say the obvious, this consumer/prosumer NLE field is complicated and requires education, so it is reassuring to come to these boards and get solid help. :P