Converting DVD-RAM to DVD-R

[Spoffo]

The Issue: The Panasonic stand-alone DVD Recorders (by far the most widely-owned brand) only support DVD-RAM for re-writable discs. For a bunch of reasons - more reliable burns, ability to set a 16:9 flag - I want to burn all "keepers" on my Mac rather than the stand-alone. This means I need a relatively simple, lossless way to bring files from the Panasonic hard disc to the Mac via RAM discs and then burn these files as a standard DVD-R. This is non-trivial, since RAM discs are not supported out of the box on Macs, and they use the .VRO file format, which is different from the .VOB used on DVDs.

The Answer: It turns out there is a quick, simple, lossless way to do this, but it took a surprising amount of digging to sort it out from a lot of suggestions that were overly-complicated or just plain wrong.

So, I thought it would be worth writing up the step-by-step procedure as its own thread to save others all that digging.

Preconditions:

1. The VBR resolution on your Panasonic recorder must be set for "Fixed" for any recordings you want to transfer via RAM disc. If it's set for "Automatic" (the factory default) you will have big problems with audio sync. You can find this setting at Functions/set-up/video/Hybrid VBR resolution. If you already have something on the hard disc that was recorded with "Auto" VBR, you can fix it by setting VBR to "Fixed" and then dubbing to RAM in real time rather than high-speed (albeit with a slight loss of PQ due to the decode/recode cycle involved.) ***OOOPs. Late-breaking complications, See my new post below.

2. You must have ReadDVD! installed on your Mac to enable it to read RAM discs. You can get it at http://www.softarch.com/us/products/rdvd.html for $25. No demo version, but they promise money back if it doesn't work for you. If you normally use a finder substitute, such as PathFinder, you need to quit it and use only the Apple Finder when working with RAM discs on a ReadDVD!-enabled Mac. PathFinder will put up bogus names and images for RAMs. (Normal use of PathFinder for anything else is unaffected by having ReadDVD! installed.)

Step-by-step:

1) Each seperate title that you want to transfer to DVD must be dubbed to its own RAM disc and must be the only title on that disc. All titles on a RAM are contained in a single big .VRO file, and splitting this on the computer is complicated and very time-consuming. Also, you should cut it on the Panasonic to the exact start and finish points you want. Again, trying to trim these on the computer is MUCH more complicated.

2) Mount the RAM disc on the Mac and copy the .VRO file to the hard disc. The other files on the RAM disc aren't needed. Repeat for each title you want on the DVD.

3.) Launch Toast and set it for "Video". Now drag the .VRO file(s) to the Toast window. Once a file is in the window, you can change the title using its "edit" button and you can change thumbnail image that will appear on the DVD menu by clicking on the picture and moving the little slider that appears under it.

4.) Unless you want to modify something else (e.g set a widescreen flag), you now just insert a DVD-R blank and click "burn". Toast will take about 1-2 minutes to "multiplex" and will then burn a finished DVD in the usual 5-10 minutes. There's no long wait for encoding, because deep down inside, a .VRO file is already in MPEG2. This also means that the whole process - from the hard disc of the Panasonic to the finished DVD is lossless - you're just making bit-by-bit copies of data files.

4a.) If you do want to do something like change an aspect ratio flag have Toast create a disc image instead of burn.

5) Mount the disc image and copy the VIDEO_TS folder from it to your hard disc.

6.) Change the privileges on the VIDEO_TS folder and all the files inside it from read only to read & Write. (You can't do that to files in a disc image. That's why you have do that additional copy back to the hard disc.)

7.) Now you can open the folder with MyDVDEdit to change the aspect ratio flag. (Or do whatever else you want to do. You're back in the familar world of .VOB files)

8.) Set Toast for "Data" (not video) and "DVD-ROM(UDF)", drag the modified VIDEO_TS folder to the Toast window and burn your DVD.

Written out like this, it's a very simple process. The only secrets are a) knowing about the need to set the VBR on the stand-alone to "fixed" b) finding ReadDVD! and c) discovering that Toast is perfectly happy working with .VRO files. Somehow, chasing down all three was a bitch.

PS: Wouldn't you know. Panasonic just started shipping their latest stand-alones, which support DVD-RW in addition to RAM for the first time. Apparently, they're finally getting ready to throw in the towel on RAM.

[G13]

This is great. Thanks. How about adding this to the FAQ that Pixeljammedia and others are working on.

[JoachimS]

Perfect tutorial.

However, it will only work if the VRO is smaller than 4GB. If it is larger, the Finder will show you the difference in file size to 4GB as the file size of the VRO.

Example: If the file is 100kB larger than 4GB, you will see a VRO of 100kB. No chance to copy or modify it. It is a restriction of the file system used on DVD-RAM (UDF 2 I think).

I usually burn a DVD-R and make another one on my Mac setting the 16:9 flag etc.

I own a Panasonic HD/DVD-R/DVD-RAM recorder. So maybe copying a second dummy track could do the trick.

Example:
Track1: 2hours XP Mode
Track2: Dummy track, make sure it is large enough, but not too large, maybe 5% that is 6 minutes in XP mode

Copy those from HD to DVD-RAM using FR mode.

Delete Track 2 from the DVD-RAM.

I'll try this occasionally.

Cheers,

Joachim

[Spoffo]

another way around the 4gb limit would be to divide the video into two files smaller than 4gb while it's still on the hard disc and then bring them into the Mac as 2 .VRO files. After converting these to two separate VIDEO_TS folders, you could join the two titles back into one using the "Join" function of DVD2oneX. I've done this and the join is almost perfect. Just a slight audio break, which you can hide if you pick a silent transition between shots to make the separation.

[JoachimS]

I'm wondering how the Panasonic recorder handles the UDF 4GB limitation, it is just some embedded system.....

Spoffo: good trick! I'd prefer that one over my suggestion.

Cheers,

Joachim

[Spoffo]

Messing around with this some more, I discovered a new complication: It doesn't work if the beginning of the clip you're dubbing has been trimmed, whether on the Panasonic's hard disc before a High Speed dub or once the file is on the RAM disc. In either case, the file will play fine as a .VRO. But, when it is converted to a VIDEO_TS, the sound will be out of sync. This is a big problem, since I always lay down a little extra head end when I record off-air in order to get a clean start on the finished recording.

The log of my experiments to sort this out follows. it may help make the pitfall clear:

Starting from a clean video clip on the Panasonic's hard disc that hasn't been edited in any way. (Recorded with VBR set for fixed, per my first post)

1. High-speed dubbed it in its untouched, virgin state to the RAM. It converts to VIDEO_TS just fine

2. Trim a little off the the beginning on the hard disc, then do the HS dub. The sound is out of sync when you convert to VIDEO_TS.

3. Leave the begining untouched. Trim some out of the middle (e.g. cutting a commercial) on the hard disc, then HS dub. The conversion to VIDEO_TS is fine.

4. HS Dub the untouched clip to the RAM, then cut somethng out out of middle on the RAM. Conversion also comes out fine.

5. HS Dub the untouched clip to the RAM, then trim a little of the beginning on the RAM. The sound goes out of sync on the conversion

Of course, there's no problem trimming the beginning on the hard disc if you then do a real-time dub to the RAM disc. This puts the clip through a decode/recode cycle, creating the .VRO file on the RAM disc as an all-new recording from analog source (Including the data at the beginning that's apparently necessary to keep the sound in sync during conversion.)

So, it's all still possible, but with all these limitations, I must say that spending 40 cents bring everything to the Mac on a DVD-R that you subsequently throw away is beginning to look a LOT easier.

[JoachimS]

@Spoffo:
Hmm. You use TOAST to make a VOB.

One of the issues that Ver.6.0.9 fixes is:
Creating video discs from PVR content no longer has A/V synchronization issues.

I had the same sync issue after using TOAST for reauthoring VOBs (not VROs). TOAST should not have done any demuxing/muxing.

Some thoughts about MPEG editing:
You cannot cut/edit a MPEG file at any random position. I assume that also the recorder puts some jump instrucions instead. This could be the reason why TOAST would choke on files with an edited start position.

Anyway, I agree with you: Throwing away an extra DVD-R is a lot easier.

Happy Easter Holidays,

Joachim

[Spoffo]

Joachim -

I'm using v6.0.9, so that isn't the issue. Besides, I use it to author from DV stream and QT files out of Final Cut, and sync has never been an issue.

Not understanding the inner workings of MPEG, the thing I find most puzzling is that if trimming the beginning of a clip throws the sync off when you convert to .VOB, how come the same thing doesn't happen if you cut material out of the .VRO in the middle of a clip? I would expect the sound on the .VOB to fall out of sync after the edit, but it doesn't.

[JoachimS]

@Spoffo:

How long does it take until sound is noticalbly out of synch?

Quicktime has similar problems when you have the video and audio as seperate files. You would use the "add scaled" (ALT-SHIFT-APPLE-V) feature for that to keep everything in synch.

Also conversions using ffmpegX show out-of-synch issues, depending on footage and the encoder (mencoder or ffmpeg) used.

When you demux your file with the start point trimmed, how is the audio encoded? (Must be 48kHz for DVD compliance)

What happens if your multiplex and reauthor it again using ffmpegX or MPEG2Works?

Cheers,

Joachim

[Spoffo]

The sound is noticably out of sync at the beginning of the recording and then gets progressively worse. After 5 minutes of play it is off by at least a full second. Way back when I first started wrestling with this, I once demuxed one of the out-of-sync .VOBs and imported the elements into Final Cut, in hopes it was an easy fix.

NOT!

The audio was just smoothly, steadily a little faster (or slower, I don't remember) than the video. It would have been impossible to re-sync.

At this point, I'm not interested in de-muxing/remuxing or extensive editing. I'm just trying to get a more robust burn with the 16:9 flag set right. Looks like a throw-away DVD-R is the most practical answer.

The question about why trimming the head (and only the head) throws sync off is just an attempt to understand more about the different structures of .VRO and .VOB and how MPEG2 works.

[Spoffo]

The Last word (I hope).

Per the suggestion of someone in another forum, it turns out it's actually quite easy to work around the sound sync problem and still say the the process is quick and lossless.

1. Bring in a single program from the Panasonic on a RAM disc. It doesn't matter if the head end has been trimmed or not. Copy the .VRO file to your hard disc. (See the PS below)

1a. If you're SURE that the beginning was not trimmed on the Panny, and you don't want to make any other edits, you can just drag the .VRO file into the video window of Toast. Otherwise, proceed to step 2.

2. Change the suffix of the file on your hard disc from .VRO to .MPG. You don't have to do anything to the file itself. The suffix change is necessary for MPEG Streamclip to recognize the file in the next step. (Actually, I just checked Version Tracker, and it says that the latest version of MPEG Streamclip - v1.2 - supports .VRO files directly.)

3. Open this file in MPEG Streamclip (freeware). If you want to make any additional trims or edits, you can do it in this program. Because it works directly on MPEG without decoding it, these edits won't be frame-accurate, but they're good enough to cut out commmercials. Just give youself about 1 second of extra room to be safe.

4. When you have the program the way you want it, select "Demux to m2v and AIFF" from the File menu. This step will take about 4 minutes for an hour program (recorded in SP). It will create 2 files on your hard disk with the filename you choose, one an m2v video fie and the other an AIFF audio file.

5. Drag the m2v file into the Video window of toast. Don't do anything with the AIFF file. **Leave it where it is and don't change the name.** Toast will access it during the next step. If you want, Edit the title and thumbnail frame you want to see on the DVD's menu.

Repeat steps 1-5 for any other programs you want on the finished DVD.

6. Burn - or. if you want to change the aspect ratio flag, Create a disc image - with Toast. Again, this only takes a few minutes and is lossless. The result will be a VIDEO_TS folder with the sound IN SYNC!

Don't ask me what's going on in the innards of MPEG to explain this. All I know is I tried it and it works.

PS: Actually, the one program per disc limitation should no longer apply, since MPEG Streamclip lets you set in and out points and demux each program as a seperate m2v file.

[Spoffo]

The even laster word, sadly.

The procedure above worked perfectly on a number of short clips from the Panasonic I used during testing. However, as I started to apply this to the real material I want to burn - TV programs and Movies I had stored on the Panny's hard disc - I started running into a problem with Toast. Sometimes - not always - as Toast was Muxing the m2v and AIFF files from Streamclip, it would stop and report an error: "Problem with source material. Code 18771"

From the Toast forum I learned that this error code means that Toast has encountered dropped frames in the source video that would throw the sync off. Further, these dropped frames are fairly common in recordings made from a broadcast source.

The Toast people had a number of work-arounds, but they all required decoding and re-coding the MPEG to get a clean enough file for Toast to work with. And that blows the whole idea of a quick, lossless way to convert files.

So, unless a future revision of Toast or some other product is able to mux .VOBs without choking on dropped frames, it looks like the only solution to getting files from a Panasonic to a Mac is to burn and then throw away a 40 cent DVD-R blank (or to buy one of the new Panny models that supports DVD-RW.)

[decay]

thanks for the followup. saved some people $25, i'll guess.

dk

[Spoffo]

The ABSOLUTELY last (and encouraging) word.

The input from the Toast forum was partially bogus. Yes, video files with dropped frames will make Toast choke, but no, they aren't common in all broadcast-based material.

After a lot of experimenting, I found that all the errors were coming from two surces, both of which can be worked around:

#1 - Files that have had their beginning trimmed on the Panasonic can cause problems. One solution is to leave the beginning intact on the Panny and RAM disc, and do all the trimming in MPEG Streamclip on the Mac. If it's too late for that, the work-around is to make sure that the first clip on the RAM disc is something that has its original beginning un-cut, and to put the problematic clip after that. For some reason, clips that have had their beginning editied are much more likely to cause problems if they are the first file on the RAM disc. I now keep a 5-minute "virgin" clip of local news on my Panny's hard disc, just to use as a header on RAM discs where I need it.

2. All the other problems I've run into have been trying to transfer some things I recorded from the HBO HD channel. For some reason the transitions between "last week on the Sopranos" and the new episode, or out of the episode into "Next week . . " have tended to cause problems.

Because it doesn't happen consistently I first try to mux the complete program file in Toast, but then if it hangs with a 18771 error (you can tell if it is at the beginning or end from the Toast progress bar) I just trim the offending lead-in or lead-out in Streamclip, re-run it in Toast, and it goes together just fine

So far, I've only seen this second type of problem specifically on things from HBO, and I suspect it may be caused by the way HBO does the transition between the HD programs and the lead-in/lead-out, which are not HD. Similar transitions on other networks (e.g. from "West Wing" in HD to local commercials) haven't caused any problems.

So, to summarize the process that is now working smoothly for me:

a) You can record any combination of material onto a RAM disc in the Panasonic stand-alone. Just be sure the first clip on the disk is one that hasn't had it's original recorded beginnning trimmed. (And this shoud be the real "First" not just first on the menu, which means you should always start from an empty RAM disc.)

b) Copy the .VRO file from the RAM disc to your Mac's hard disc.

c) Open this file in MPEG Streamclip.

d) Run "Fix timecode errors" from the Streamclip "Edit" menu. Very quick, but essential. (Note that the fixed timecode is NOT saved - - to do so would require re-encoding the file - - so you have to do this every time you open a .VRO, even one you've worked on before.

e) For each title you want on your DVD, set the in and out points for it in Streamclip, then do a "Demux to m2v and AIFF" from the File menu.

f) Drag the m2v files you want into the "Video" window of Toast, and don't change or move the paired AIFF files on your hard disk.

g) After setting title and key frames for the menu, have Toast save a disc image. This will probably go fine. However, IF toast stalls and gives you a 18771 error message, make note of approximately where in the program this happened from the Toast progress bar.

h) From my experience the problem will alway be a transition in the lead-in or lead-out. Re-open the .VRO file (don't forget "fix timecode errors"), edit around the offending transition, and re-do from step "e".

Once you've successfully created a disc image, you can change aspect ratio flags and such and then burn to your DVD-R in the "data" window of Toast.

I know this sounds terribly long and involved here, but it isn't in practice, since none of this requires long waits for encoding. Just this afternoon, I've archived a bunch of "Sopranos" and "Arrested Development" episodes I had on my hard disk onto good DVDs, and it didn't take much more time than using a throw-away DVD-R blank.