Wormholes

[Doramius]

No Doramius.

A hologram is a physical thing and it does exist.

The hologram exists as three dimensional data recorded as interference patterns on a photographic plate -- i.e., it is a physical object. The image is then projected with some form of illumination (i.e., with photons which also exist).

Sure, the actually projected perceived three dimensional object isn't there but that is somewhat irrelevant isn't it?? Just like the "person" in a photo isn't "actually there" or the my reflection in a mirror isn't "actually there" either. These are simply human perceptual irregularities rather than anything else. Our brains interpret visual stimuli in a "contextual" rather than "literal" sort of way which is why we can see a photo as a photo rather than as a simple piece of paper with a complex array of colours.

Regards.

Though our brain interprets images, only the ink and the paper exist. You cannot tell me that what our brain interprets exists just because it is interpreted that way. The hologram APPEARS to be 3-D physical, but it is not, you are right that it is a distortion of light and show 3-D. I can take a crystal, which is solid, and etch the hologram inside. THe crystal has changed properties, but it has not acquired any new mass of 3 dimensions.

We know light can be distorted to create the appearance of a physical object and we can detect it visually, but it doesn't exist as a physical object.

[vitualis]

I think we actually agree on the same thing but your interpretation of it is frankly strange.

A hologram exists physically (as you said, as ink and paper exists). Yes the apparent three dimensional object perceived in our brain doesn't exist as such but as I stated before, so what? That is simply an illusion (which happens because our brains don't detect "reality" as such, only an intepretation of it).

Your argument somewhere back was that (or was it Shadowmistress) that a two dimensional object doesn't truly exist in three dimensional space. That is patently wrong.

Two dimensional objects (e.g., a surface) do exist in three dimensional space. You seem to be predicating that something only exists if it has volume. That is quite wrong.

Your arguments of how "holograms" can be detected but doesn't exist is similarly faulty and like your other arguments previously on time dilatation, is rooted in antropocentrism. The only reason that holograms "appear to exists" as a three dimensional object is because of our stereoscopic vision and visual cortex. Just like we can get "magic eye" images to appear as 3D.

Our senses do not always give us a true appreciation of 3 dimensional reality. Our senses are easily fooled which is why we have such things as "optical illusions".

The fact that holograms "look 3D" when it is in fact only data encoded onto a 2 dimensional surface only shows one thing. That humans have faulty senses and a hologram is designed to EXPLOIT it.

Regards.

[Doramius]

Our eyes only see in 2 dimensions, we need 2 eyes to get depth perception of a 3-D object.

As I stated before, the ink is a #-D object, the paper is a 3-D object. Those can be detected. The image itself is not 3-D, yet it can be interpreted as 3-D. Granted human's are fallible, but then so is anything human made or setup. I have a strong wonder about people who think anything outside of it's true elemental form can be PERFECT or without flaw.

Again, I've told friends and family about my thoughts regarding a blackhole long ago from reading information about them. The thought and concept have been there for a long time, people just accepted what other majorities have agreed upon and stated was true. Along comes a respected scientist and figures something more true and smashes through what everyone accepted as truth, by presenting something that he has been able to show better proof of. This happens more frequently than people believe. I honestly feel that time dilation falls in the effect of relation. By accelerating, sensory may overcompensate for the odd gravitational movements and other phenomena. This gives the appearance of time dilation and is physicallly showing the flaw. but the actual time passage would be the same.

Maybe the 10 years of lightpeed flight feels like only a short time period, but the physical body will still age 10 earth years. sensory perception is fallible. The physical body is still subject to it's natural age progression. So the person traveling at the speed of light may feel like maybe a year has passed, but his body seemed to develop 10 times as fast. when he gets back to earth everyone is 20 years older as the return trip took another 10 years. Again, the person in flight only relatively feeling the passage of something like 2 years.

10 years will pass regardless of how someone thinks or feels it happens. Time does not exist. It is not a dimension. It is only a perception that is used as a factor. You cannot go into the future or past by ripping through the fabric of time & space. If you could, we'd probably be able to witness this phenomena more easily and frequently close to and on the earth.

[flaninacupboard]

Maybe the 10 years of lightpeed flight feels like only a short time period, but the physical body will still age 10 earth years. sensory perception is fallible. The physical body is still subject to it's natural age progression.

So you're saying a phyiscal process will slow the biological reactions that take place in order for a human to sense things, but the same physical affect WILL NOT slow down the biological reactions specifically related to aging?

so how does that work for an atomic clock? the same physical process alters the time on the clock but does age the particles inside the clock?

10 years will pass regardless of how someone thinks or feels it happens.

How can you say that when evidence has been presented to you that time is DIFFERENT for different people? show me a clock whose time counting interval that is always the same and is not affected by relativity. then i'll show you a broken clock.....

[vitualis]

As I stated before, the ink is a #-D object, the paper is a 3-D object. Those can be detected. The image itself is not 3-D, yet it can be interpreted as 3-D. Granted human's are fallible...

You are missing the point.

The reason why it works because it is designed to exploit stereoscopic vision in humans.

Just like you can "3D" images with polarised glasses at a 3D movie cinema.

Again, I've told friends and family about my thoughts regarding a blackhole long ago from reading information about them.

Really? Black holes were first written about in the 1970s and hypothesised long before then as a consequence of General Relativity.

By accelerating, sensory may overcompensate for the odd gravitational movements and other phenomena. This gives the appearance of time dilation and is physicallly showing the flaw. but the actual time passage would be the same.

As I have stated again Doramius. You are WRONG.

Time dilation has nothing to do with human sensation.

It is a proven physical phenomenon.

Elemental particles experience time dilation when accelerated in a particle accelerator. How does human sensation lead to a short lived particle the result of a high energy collision surviving longer??

EVERYTHING SLOWS DOWN -- even at the subatomic level. Why? Because TIME ITSELF IS PASSING SLOWER RELATIVE TO THE STATIONARY OBJECT.

Maybe the 10 years of lightpeed flight feels like only a short time period, but the physical body will still age 10 earth years.

NO, NO, NO, NO. The body will age exactly the time that "you feel" it to be and as agreed upon by any sort of time keeping device kept on you.

Denying time dilation is the same as denying the existence of gravity!

Regards.

[BJ_M]

vitualis is absolutely 100% correct ... and it is all proven science ..

[Doramius]

@BJ_M - Steven Hawkin once wrote "Nothing in science is proven. Science has nothing to prove. Man's curiosity desires truth, though humans are fallible."

As for gravity, I have stated before, you have to base time on some physical environment. We base it on Earth. Which way is gravity pulling in space? If you distort gravity, you will distort time dilation. If you pass a planet of a certain size, you may be affected slightly more or less by it's gravity in sensation.

Again, you have not proven or shown anything solid other than you can detect a phenomena with a fallible device. I can take photos of something with a really high top of the line photo equipment and still get light spheres and orbs and state they are ghosts. Using detection equipment proves the existance of something, but later development shows it's nothing more than some magnetic or radiation trick or effect.

[flaninacupboard]

@BJ_M - Steven Hawkin once wrote "Nothing in science is proven. Science has nothing to prove. Man's curiosity desires truth, though humans are fallible."

As for gravity, I have stated before, you have to base time on some physical environment. We base it on Earth. Which way is gravity pulling in space? If you distort gravity, you will distort time dilation. If you pass a planet of a certain size, you may be affected slightly more or less by it's gravity in sensation.

Again, you have not proven or shown anything solid other than you can detect a phenomena with a fallible device. I can take photos of something with a really high top of the line photo equipment and still get light spheres and orbs and state they are ghosts. Using detection equipment proves the existance of something, but later development shows it's nothing more than some magnetic or radiation trick or effect.

I don't fancy a ban or a warning, but it's worth it. you really are a twat.

[Doramius]

@BJ_M - Steven Hawkin once wrote "Nothing in science is proven. Science has nothing to prove. Man's curiosity desires truth, though humans are fallible."

As for gravity, I have stated before, you have to base time on some physical environment. We base it on Earth. Which way is gravity pulling in space? If you distort gravity, you will distort time dilation. If you pass a planet of a certain size, you may be affected slightly more or less by it's gravity in sensation.

Again, you have not proven or shown anything solid other than you can detect a phenomena with a fallible device. I can take photos of something with a really high top of the line photo equipment and still get light spheres and orbs and state they are ghosts. Using detection equipment proves the existance of something, but later development shows it's nothing more than some magnetic or radiation trick or effect.

I don't fancy a ban or a warning, but it's worth it. you really are a twat.

[vitualis]

Okay, by your understanding, gravity doesn't exist.

When you drop something and it falls, it is because of Aristotle's notion that an object is more at rest on the "ground" than "up".

Doramius, I strongly suggest that you go back to school and learn some elementary physics.

Your question, "which way is gravity pointing in space" is simply ridiculous. If you don't know which way it is, you can measure it.

Which gets back to the issue of time dilation. We can measure this. More than that, we can measure it accurately and easily.

Furthermore, we can make accurate predictions on it and use it to our advantage.

You seem to be denying the simple truth of the matter that we use calculations of time dilation in everyday technical applications. A simple one is that GPS system would not work if not for the existence of time dilation. You have completely ignored my previous statements. WE ACTIVELY COMPENSATE FOR THE EFFECT OF TIME DILATION. If time dilation doesn't exist, then how come GPS remains accurate???

Yes, objects passing through different gradients of gravitation force will experience different amounts of time dilation. I don't think that you get the point though. General relativity not only predicts the existence of time dilation, but allows us to calculation it accurately. When we make real physical measurements for time dilation, they are almost exactly spot on with the predictions of general relativity.

If we didn't account for time dilation and relativistic effects, we wouldn't be able to send space probes to distant planets that do all sorts of clever loops around the sun first to gain "gravity assist" because Newtonian physics will give the wrong calculations.

Let me say once again. Time dilation is a proven (by all meaningful sense of the word[/b] physical phenomenon. From the point of view of science, it is as real a phenomenon as a rock is a real object that you see on the ground from time to time.

If you don't believe in time dilation, there is no reason you should believe that Antarctica exists either. You've never actually seen it have you?

Regards.

[Doramius]

There's a lot more than a simple time dilation that satellites need to be adjusted for. I would consider GPS a poor example. Even the magnetic poles aren't where the true north & south are. I highly doubt time dilation has anything to do with that as well.

I don't know where you're getting the notion that I said gravity doesn't exist, because you're just making that up. There's all sorts of gravity all over the universe, but the truth is, in space there's weightlessness. If there's gravity, it's very weak in any direction. passing over some planets of strong gravitation at one side and less at another are going to distort which way gravity is pulling. Which direction? You can't tell me that when I'm on Jupiter, Gravity is going to pull me back to earth, which is what it sounds like you're trying to explain. That's just ignorance. Jupiter has it's own gravity much stronger than the earth. It will cause a different effect on anything around it. It's a totally different planet. Who says another planet has to have the same gravitational force all around it's surface? That'd screw up an atomic clock for sure.

[BJ_M]

all sorts of gravity ?

[Doramius]

Each planet has different gravity, based on it's mass and structure. THere's evidence that some planets may have a higher density in on hemisphere over the other. How this happens, I'm not exactly sure of. But each planet may have different gravity strengths. some may be 10-100+ times stronger or weaker than the earth.

[BJ_M]

'all sorts' means different types - not different strengths ..

you have gravity, a golf ball has gravity , the moon has gravity - obviously they are different strengths ..

[vitualis]

There's a lot more than a simple time dilation that satellites need to be adjusted for. I would consider GPS a poor example. Even the magnetic poles aren't where the true north & south are. I highly doubt time dilation has anything to do with that as well.

What on Earth are you going on about? Yes many things are adjusted including time dilation. If time dilation doesn't exists, then these adjustments would be incorrect no?

And the fact that the magnetic poles aren't where true north and south are irrelevant to the discussion.

...but the truth is, in space there's weightlessness. If there's gravity, it's very weak in any direction.

Learn some physics. Anywhere within our solar system, there is a clear gravitational gradient towards the Sun. What do you think stops Pluto from flying off into interstellar space?

Weightlessness is not caused by the absence of gravity. It is caused when you are accelerating at exactly the same rate and direction as the net gravitational gradient. If you were in an elevator car as it plummeted down an elevator shaft (because of broken cables), you will be weightless (for a few seconds at least).

When the astronauts go into low Earth orbit in the Shuttle, they appear to be weightless. But if we actually built a building up to that height, what "gravity" would they feel? The fact is that at low Earth orbit, the "gravitational" pull of the Earth is pretty much the same as on the surface!

Who says another planet has to have the same gravitational force all around it's surface? That'd screw up an atomic clock for sure.

Why? General relativity suggests that in the absense of a frame of reference, you cannot tell the difference between acceleration and gravity. An atomic clock (as well as subatomic particles) can handle the relatively minor fluctuations in gravitation strength easily without "screwing it up" thank you very much.

Sorry Doramius, but your arguments betray and absolute ignorance of basic physical concepts. Time dilation is a measurable a physical phenomenon as gravity is. We have accurate enough time keeping devices such that the effects of time dilation measured are not subtle or small in certain situations.

Your arguments against GPS are simply baffling as obviously you have no idea what you are talking about. When you get right down to it, GPS is an atomic clock orbiting the Earth. You can make two assumptions. If time dilation doesn't exist, then time that passes on the GPS satellite is exactly the same as time passing on Earth (so two matched atomic clocks will keep exact time within tolerances unless one of them is broken).

If time dilation does exists, then all the satellites in space will start to deviate from the reference time on Earth in exactly the same way in exactly the same amount as predicted by general relativity.

Guess, what, the second assumption is correct! GPS one of the best tests and proofs for time dilation. If we didn't adjust for time dilation, there would be a time variance of (I'm not sure of the numbers) a handful of milliseconds (or ?microseconds) which when used to calculate GPS co-ordinates would lead to inaccurate locations (which would compoundly worsen each day).

Regards.