Lousy MPEG1 quality?

[Terry]

I capture from a Sony mini-dv to avi format. As an avi file, it plays with very good quality. When I convert over to MPEG1, either through Adobe Premier or Ulead 6.0, the quality diminished significantly. I get snow, pixels and then some. If you blow the frame up, it really gets lousy. I have even ran the MPEG clip through TMPGE and it is no better. Does anyone have any ideas for better MPEG quality???

[Conquest10]

upping the bitrate or resolution should make it better.

[puertorican138]

I capture from a Sony mini-dv to avi format. As an avi file, it plays with very good quality. When I convert over to MPEG1, either through Adobe Premier or Ulead 6.0, the quality diminished significantly. I get snow, pixels and then some. If you blow the frame up, it really gets lousy. I have even ran the MPEG clip through TMPGE and it is no better. Does anyone have any ideas for better MPEG quality???

What resolution do you capture at?

[txpharoah]

For a good MPEG1, use the max bitrate of 1856k (max allowable by VCD or DVD-MPEG1) and then the resolution of 352x240 is also the max allowed by VCD or DVD. Anything higher resolution or higher bitrate will only play on a PC unless you make a XVCD. Even then, anything more than 352x240 at 2600k bitrate would just be a waste of space. Larger resolutions not really supported very well by a MPEG1, and many encoders would reject higher. I suggest Adobe Premiere, Cleaner or TMPGEnc Plus to encode with.

[puertorican138]

I would also suggest CCE or The Main Concept Encoder. :P

[vhelp]

first, I would recommend to leave Adobe Premeir and Ulead alone, unless
you absolutely need it for fancy things (which I seem to believe you are
not yet ready for, hence your issue w/ MPEG-1 quality)

Instead, I would work out other possible causes.. like..
1 * Capture Source ie, Attena, Cable, Satellite, etc..
2 * Quality of capture source
3 * Source type ie, Film or Interlace (or Telecined or not)
4 * your capture process
5 * your encoding method/process
6 * filtering before you encode
7 * issues ie, did you drop frames, etc.
8 * your skill at all the above (more so for encoding)
9 * DVD player and CDr media (cheapo's or what)

I'm sure I left out a few more but the above should sufice enough for now.

Pixelation..
----------
* Check for line 2. Your source may contain Noise, and if it does, your final
..encode (MPEG-1 or VCD) will suffer, showing lots of pixelation. The less
..Noise, the less pixelation. Lets' face it.. when source is from a capture
..medium, you'll suffer most when your format is the least ie, VCD.
..Even if you don't see any noise, the encoder will.

* If your source is from Film, ie, HBO airing Superman, you would do
..much better to capture at 352x480 and for your encoding process, include
..an IVTC, followed by a resize down to 352x240 (if you adimate about VCD only)
..This route will yield slightly better results. And, remember, as a beginner,
..don't expect commercial quality VCD's. ..you're too early in the learning stage.

* Encoding method is another possible cause for pixelation.

* dropped frames is another, and if IVTC is used on those captures that had
..lots of frame drops, you'll suffer more issues ie, "studders" and/or "ghosting"

* a DVD player (el cheapo) can also cause pixelation, as well as cheap CDr's
..and/or poorly authored CD's per Author app ie, Nero etc.

Welp, hope I help to some degree..
-vhelp

[Terry]

Vhelp, thanx for the help but I do have a few questions.
I capture through a 1394iee cable from the camcorder directly to the computer. The quality of the avi file is great when played back. I seem to lose it when I encode over to mpeg.

I have encoded from the avi file to mpeg through Adobe, and Ulead and both seem to give poor results. I have taken the encoded file and tried to clean it up with TMPGE and it doesn't get any better.

No dropped frames.

Skill is with the use of the computer and having the ability to use the process of elimination.

I have tried to play back through the computer, vcd, throught the dvd as both svcd and dvd. It really doesn't matter, the quality sucks. Again, I go back to the master avi file, it is great quality. I have even taken the file from the computer and sent it back to a blank minidv tape in the camcorder and again, great quality.

I really feel I am losing it at the encoding stage. I can't see any reason why I should be losing it. What can go wrong? Am I using encoding software that doesn't have enough settings to allow me to tweak out a half way decent clip?

I do burn with Nero, but even the mpeg clip plays lousy as a file on the computer, before the burning stage. I accept that every transfer will lose something. I expect to lose a little from the computer to the cd, but again, I start with crap....

[vhelp]

Hi Terry,

I understand your frustration.. believe me. I've ben there and done it
all.. throught the same basic steps - - process of elimination. And
that's basically how I built up skills and experience and knowledge etc.

>> I really feel I am losing it at the encoding stage. I can't see any reason why
>> I should be losing it.

Try not to loose it. It's just gonna take some time before you figure it out


>> .. .. .. ..What can go wrong? Am I using encoding software that doesn't have
>> enough settings to allow me to tweak out a half way decent clip?

I think that PAL user's have it better than us NTSC users. At least, they have
an advantage - - less FPS (PAL=25fps, while NTSC=29.970fps)


I don't know what your source is.. home-footage or cable/satellite recordings
to miniDV tapes etc., so I can't help much either.


But, unfortunately, VCD may not be what works for ya, and you'll probably have
to come to that conclusion and just move on to something a little higher, ie
* xVCD (352x240 2000 bitrate+) (can be xVCD etc if you tweak beyond standards)
* CVD (352x480 MPEG-2) (can be xCVD etc if you tweak beyond standards)
* SVCD (480x480 MPEG-2) (can be xSVCD etc if you tweak beyond standards)

for all the above, you can modify:
* resolution ie, 352x480
* Interlace (mpeg-2) or de-interlace (mpeg-1)
* use above standard, bitrates
* Field order - - DV is (Field B) in TMPG
but then, you wont be compliant, and as a result, you'll be making "x"VCD/SVCD etc.

-vhelp

[Terry]

Thanks vhelp, I wasn't aware that TMPGE would encode. I thought it was primairly to clean up MPEG. I will try encoding some of my avi files on TMPEG and see if the quality cleans up a bit.

In the mean time, I know this is somewhat in the future, buy how do I take these MPEG files and add my transitions and titles without having to re-encode the whole thing over again, i.e.Ulead.

I will give TMPGE a try and get back to you with the results.

Thanx again for the help

[Terry]

vhelp
I encoded an avi clip to mpeg with TMPGE, wow, what a difference in the quality. Now what do I use to splice all my mpeg clips together, add transitions, so on and so forth. My thought now is, when I do this, and bring it through to a final movie, such as with Ulead, I will lose my quality again. Anything out there you know of that will maybe use the TMGE mpeg clips and maybe not re-encode the whole thing over again. I am sure that encoding over and over loses quality every pass.

[Terry]

I don't know if I have ever said, I am encodeing home movies....

[vhelp]

hi Terry,

Sorry I'm not a Ulead fan, so I don't know what kinds of help/suggestions
I can give ya.

Perhaps someone with experience can ??

-vhelp

[Terry]

vhelp
I really don't care what I use. I am looking for something that I can edit these newly encoded clips without effecting my newly found quality.

[vhelp]

hi Terry,

ok then..

As long as you are capturing (or DV'ing) to AVI, make sure you set your
final source type as Type 2.

Then, for the editing part, I use vdub, and proceed to select areas that I
don't want included in my TMPG encode process.

Then, I frameserve my final data into TMPG for a final encode, be it a
VCD or CVD or SVCD or DVD or whatever your heart contents.

Unfortunately, vdub is limited - - that is, no transitions and things of that
nature.

The best thing i can suggest to you, is to do lots of trial-n-error encoding
from:
* frameserve vdub --> TMPG ..
* Ulead's built-in encoder ..
* Ulead's --> tmpg (framserving) ..
* and any other for of mechanism for final outcome (VCD/SVCD/DVD)

All I can say is it will take time, to build experience. That's how I learned.
After being frustrated w/ trying suggestions, I finally took the adventure
and learned through trial-n-error - - building up skill and knowledge.

There are several Links (to your left) on frameserving and so forth.
You can also check the FAQ and the Glossary for other tips and/or some
explanation to items that may not seem common to you.

I hope that help so far
-vhelp

[Terry]

vhelp, thanks for your help, I think playing around with a clip in the many options out there would be good for me. I know Ulead encodes a lousy final movie for me. Adode wasn't much better. I was hoping to find something that would allow me to either edit, add transitions, ect and then save to be encoded by TMPGE as a final Mpeg. Probably impossible. I was so excited by the quality of my avi to mpge in TMPGE I am trying to save that quality for the final product. Maybe Adobe can take Mpegs and let me do my transition and titles and make a final movie without re-encoding the final product. I will start playing as you suggested. Thanx for your help...

[vhelp]

hi Terry,

I don't know Ulead nor Adobe, but if any of them allow you to frameserve
(after you've done your transitions and other fancy stuff) into other external
encoderes ie, TMPG, then you are in luck and all you have to do is continue
w/ your fancy-smansy and ta-da. So, do research and see if any of these
two apps allow frameserving. I think that Ulead allows for this, but I'm not
sure.

-vhelp

[ZippyP.]

I accept that every transfer will lose something. I expect to lose a little from the computer to the cd,

Not every transfer will lose something. It's digital, if you're just transferring (like burning it to VCD) then it's identical. You will lose when you encode or convert from one type of compression (dv-avi) to another type (mpeg or ?).

This touches on one of the reasons to use frameserving (as mentioned by others). Frameserving avoids having to recompress when applying filters using programs like Virtualdub. The processed (filtered) video is fed to the encoder without the need for an intermediate (sometimes really large) file. It may not be for you at this point, but filtering-frameserving is probably something you want to work towards.

For editting, effects etc., I'm no expert but I think this is best done within the Avi format. Just doing simple cuts and splices of mpegs can be a problem.

Hope that helps a bit.

[Terry]

zippyp
Thanx for the recc. All I have done is editing in avi. Really easy say in Ulead. The problem comes in when encoding to a final movie in MPEG, the quality is lousy. When I encode in TMPGE, I get the same quality mpeg as the original avi. I am trying to figure out how to do my editing in say ulead and have TMPGE encode the final movie?????

[ZippyP.]

Yes, TMPG is regarded as the best mpeg1 (vcd) encoder and it's cheap, unlike some of the others.

I don't know about Ulead but can't you save the editted Avi back as an Avi, instead of choosing to encode? I know you definitely can with other editting software. Of course simple editting (cut and splice), can be done with Virtualdub. Guides for it are in the Edit section.

[vhelp]

hi ZippyP,

that issue now lies in weather or not, Terry can use Ulean as the frameserver
to TMPG, instead of Save to yet, another AVI.

If anyone knows weather Ulead or Adobe CAN frameserve ?? please help
Terry out w/ an answer.

Thanks all.
-vhelp

[ZippyP.]

If anyone knows weather Ulead or Adobe CAN frameserve ??

Yes, that's the best way if it's possible!

[Donny661]

Here is your best bet for editing your videos then making a vcd.

After you've captured your avis, edit those directly in adobe or ulead then export your finished and edited product back to an avi (preferably uncompressed, or compressed with HuffYUV (a lossless compression https://www.videohelp.com/glossary#Lossless%20Compression) or DV (lossy compession but not nearly as bad as mpeg-1 https://www.videohelp.com/glossary#Lossy%20Compression)). I don't think Ulead or Adobe can frameserve, but I'm positive adobe (not sure about ulead) will let you export to another avi. Then encode with TMPG and burn.

It sounds to me that you were capturing your video, compressing it to mpeg, editing it, then compressing again to mpeg. Try to keep your video in it's original dv compression or uncompressed until your finally ready to burn. Like other people have said, the more you compress, the worse quality your video gets each time. DV, HuffYUV, and uncompressed video is very big, but if you don't have a big enough hard drive to store all that data and you plan on doing alot editing even if it's just your home movies, I would highly recommend you invest in a larger hard drive of at least 60GB.

[txpharoah]

You can frameserve from Adobe Premiere to TMPGEnc with the special frameserver that exists (sorry, don't remember the site, but search for it with Google +"frameserve" +"premiere"), or use AVIsynth. It's slow, but works if that's what you really need.

I'd dump anything Ulead. if Ulead was a car company, it would be Kia Sephia or something equally small and crappy as compared to Chevy Corvette or Ford Mustang. Look into Adobe Premiere, as it is the best editor on the market for PC. Avid Xpress DV is also great runner-up.

Maybe you could use Premiere 6.5 and just use the Adobe (MainConcept) MPEG Encoder. It's pretty good too, though I still like TMPGenc, and MainConcept is a close 2nd.

[Terry]

I just happened to be playing with Ulead and found a custom option when encoding to final mpeg from avi, all edits and fluff added. It allowed to pick you frame size and change your bitrate to about anything you choose. It has a simple slider that allows you to also choose higher quality output. I must say, what a difference from just using the default settings. Thanks to all for your help.

I would like to explore the Adobe option, didn't see anywhere you could change any settings on the encodeing step. I will explore editing, saving to avi again, and then encoding mpeg through TMPGE. Thanks again to all for your input.