Tech comparison -R/RW vs +r/RW

[MoovyGuy]

Hi All,

I would like to understand the differences between the "-" and "+" versions of DVD recording technologies and why one is potentially more "compatible" than others.

I don't care about logos, licensing or alliances. What I am asking about is the technical merits and drawbacks of each recording system.

Unlike another current thread, can we please keep this topic polite and non-biased ?

Please, no name calling or insults, just information so that we, your fellow forum users may learn and understand.

Thanks

[SAFEDISKKILLER22]

DVD+RW claims to be more compatible
Also +RW has some option to encode and burn realtime automatically

[Digitizer]

After doing my homework I decided to go with the "minus" since the disks are more likely to play in set-top DVD's. One day before buying the drive I got a Maximum PC issue with "plus" and "minus" reviews, favoring the "minus" for the same reason - DVD players like them. Since I am mostly into video, that's very important.

[igornt]

First, despite different claims about compatability of DVD+RW (most of them were made by the DVD+RW producers anyways), it appears from different discussions that the compatability is worse than that of DVD-R. IMHO, there should be no worries about that as I think all (or almost all) new generation DVD players will eventually read both formats. Or I may be mistaken, since stupid things do happen.
Second, the plus format, unlike DVD-R/W, has not been approved by the DVD Forum. It is not an approved format yet!

[RAAGAAman]

Ok, some polite conversion-
DVD-R and +R are about the same compatibilty(90 to 95%).
This is Only true if the Book value is set to "DVD-ROM" when the control data is written to the DVD+R disk. If you set the DVD book value to "DVD+R" then your compatibilty drops to <80%. The DVD+R book value is not recognized by some players as a valid disk format and you get the "Disc error" message. Most DVD+R drives are shipped with the drive set to the high compatibility. Faking out a DVD player/ROM really does not cause a problems since the reflectivity of DVD+R is about the same as Single layer DVD.
I would like to add that the maximum PC review was done with the drive set to the lower compatibility setting. Ricoh ships it that way.

For DVD-R, Player/ROM support is greater because it is established and is supported by the Forum.

The same compatibilty change can be done with DVD+RW but this could be a problem since the reflectivity is lower and your player/ROM might try to read this at max speed and read errors can occur.
Even with DVD+RW set to a lower compatibilty settings DVD-RW and DVD+RW have about the same compatibility because of the reflectivity and player/ROM support.
It comes down to this, They have about the compatibility. You choose.



RG

[vitualis]

"Anecdotal evidence" would suggest that DVD+RW media have a significantly lower compatibility rate (with stand-alone DVD players) than DVD-R or DVD-RW.

Regards.

[Eug]

"Anecdotal evidence" would suggest that DVD+RW media have a significantly lower compatibility rate (with stand-alone DVD players) than DVD-R or DVD-RW.

Regards.

Overall evidence would suggest that DVD+RW media has a similar compatibility rate with standalone DVD players to DVD-RW, but much lower than DVD-R (or DVD+R) according to VCDHelp.com and reviews on the net.

This of course will vary greatly with individuals, since even if 65% of players support DVD+RW, that means you could still own 5 players which all don't work with DVD+RW, giving you a personal anecdotal experience of 0% compatibility. Similarly, I have seen reports of saying their DVD+RW discs work all 3 of somebody's machines, giving them 100% compatibility. Neither is correct.

And finally, I have seen a formal review which claims 10% compatibility with DVD-RW and 0% with DVD-RAM. I assume the test was done improperly because DVD-RW is known to have about 2/3rds compatibility, and several of the machines in the review are already confirmed to work with DVD-RW. Furthermore, while DVD-RAM compatibility is low, one of set top DVD players in the review (which I own) is built from the factory to work with DVD-RAM (and I have confirmed it). So it seems compatibility ratings are also very dependent upon proper authoring, burning, and/or media selection, etc. as RAAGAAman was saying.

[MoovyGuy]

This kind of information is great !!

I really appreciate all participants offering information and experience without bias.

Please, keep it up.

Thanks

[Eug]

Also, check my sig for some general info about the technologies.

[Kusanagi]

Also, be sure to check out the following -

http://dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html#4.3

http://www.dv-info.net/cgi-bin/ib/ikonboard.cgi?s=3d0037263bf6ffff;act=ST;f=5;t=15


Kusanagi

[PhilipL]

Withdrawn

[RAAGAAman]

Philip,
Not sure I agree with you on this. +R has the same physical properties as a Single layer DVD ROM. The changing of the Book value is only so older players will not reject the disk because the control data says it is "DVD+R". Remember DVD+R is new and MFGs have not added anything to the drive/player F/W to recognize it. Yes! I think it is a little devious for the +RW alliance to do this but it is necessary for Compatibility improvement. Blu-Ray will most likely treat it the same way since it has to support SL DVD-ROM.


RG

[PhilipL]

Withdrawn

[RAAGAAman]

Philipl,
This does not make any sense. First, the DVD+R format will be more established by the time Blue laser makes it to market(2004). You have to remember that the companies with todays competing formats have come together to develop Blue laser. Do you think that they would actually try to kill an existing format? There will be thousands if not millions of DVD+R and DVD-R disks created by users like yourself that would be pretty POed.
The Dye material to make DVD+R and -R is the same material for both.
Why would I need a different laser power to read DVD-ROM vs DVD-R or +R. If that is true why can I take a CD-R disk that I created today and stick it in an old Sony 4X CD-ROM drive and it will read it. Do you think that Sony developed a different read power for CD-R reading.

RG

[PhilipL]

Withdrawn

[RAAGAAman]

PhilipL
I am not suggesting a difference between DVD-R or +R. New blue-laser players may need to know if they have a pressed DVD or a recordable DVD in order to calibrate correctly to read the media.

Ok, lets go with this since this seems to be of great concern to you. You will not see any mass produced Blue laser players until, the earliest, 2004. By that time DVD+R will be established along with DVD-R. The Blue Ray Forum will have already developed a detection method other than the Book value code to determine the disk type. There are other ways to determine the disk type other than the control data. Like: are you recordable media? Do you have CSS? Do you have a PCA area? The industry will adjust. They will because the customer requires it.
Scare tactics are not necessary because there will be no problem. I will say this again, my opinion, there is no real difference in either format when it comes down to compatibility. I have a A04 and a Ricoh +R/RW. They both have their quirks but they get the job done.

[PhilipL]

Withdrawn

[PhilipL]

Withdrawn

[vitualis]

Ok, lets go with this since this seems to be of great concern to you. You will not see any mass produced Blue laser players until, the earliest, 2004. By that time DVD+R will be established along with DVD-R. The Blue Ray Forum will have already developed a detection method other than the Book value code to determine the disk type. There are other ways to determine the disk type other than the control data. Like: are you recordable media? Do you have CSS? Do you have a PCA area? The industry will adjust. They will because the customer requires it.

It is not entirely clear when Blu-Ray will be out but the info released earlier this year (search the forums for the earlier posts on this) suggests that products will be released by Christmas this year. Of course, this may be hype and market penetration will take some time.

However, there is no palpable reason that I can see for Blu-Ray manufacturers to support recordable DVD media -- at least in the earlier players. Recordable DVDs will be a direct competitor to Blu-Ray (it will come with a standarised recording format) and somehow I don't think that the companies pushing this standard will necessarily have the consumers interests first.

This can be see as analogous to the rather slow introduction of CD-R/W compatibility into stand-alone DVD players.

Perhaps I am overly cynical but we will see in time...

Regards.

[Kennyshin]

Also, be sure to check out the following -

http://dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html#4.3

http://www.dv-info.net/cgi-bin/ib/ikonboard.cgi?s=3d0037263bf6ffff;act=ST;f=5;t=15


Kusanagi

DVDFAQ from DVD Demystified.com is a great source of knowledge but it is far outdated with regards to DVD recordable media.

DVDplusRW.org has been so far the most complete source for anyone who compares the two different and non-compatible formats since DVD+RW was very recently introduced.

[vitualis]

God no!

DVDplusRW.org is guilty of perpetrating much of the hype and misinformation about the compatibility of DVD+RW.

The DVD FAQ is an excellent source of information about recordable DVD.

Regards.

[Kusanagi]

I have to agree with vitualis.

DVDplusRW.org is way too biased to be considered credible at all. Also, how can DVDPlusRW.org be the "complete source for anyone who compares the two different and non-compatible formats" when I hear that the moderators there are deleting links that show comparisons where DVD-R/W is more favorable than DVD+R/W (ie. http://www.dvdplusrw.org/cgi/ikonboard/topic.cgi?forum=2&topic=1797 ) and deleting older and archived posts on DVD-R/-RW/RAM to keep it a DVD+RW boys-only club. Also, they are 'banning' those that try to debunk DVD+R/W false statements and are stopping others from posting about their viewpoints and experiences from the DVD-R/W side. Thus, no real comparisons can ever be made between the two formats there. This is unfortunate and unfair to those looking for unbiased information on DVD recording. Thank goodness for vcdhelp!

The DVD FAQ may be a bit outdated (not by much though) but what it states is fact and provides unbiased and direct information - something DVDplusRW.org can only dream of doing. Also, be sure to check out Eug's FAQ, which is just as good, which is available here - http://www.anandtech.com/guides/viewfaq.html?i=118 (a little plug for ya there Eug )

On a side-note, is it just me or are these DVD+RW fanboys from DVDplusRW.org becoming more and more defensive and self-promoting (and in error - ie. john1290) each day? First, john1290's fanatical and offensive posts in that 'other' thread, then to the downright stupid (and inappropriate) comments on the S201 DVD-R drive, in a (failed) attempt to lower the rating of a DVD-R format drive, as seen here http://www.vcdhelp.com/dvdwriters.php?DVDnameid=19&Search=Search&list= (mod should clean that up) and now this foolish self-promotion. How low will these DVDplusRW.org people go...I for one, am getting fed up with this smear tactic (which seems to be originating from DVDplusRW.org and its members, after a quick visit to some of their forum threads).


Kusanagi

[Scobo]

Shit, here we go again !
Advantage Kusanagi.

[Kennyshin]

God no!

DVDplusRW.org is guilty of perpetrating much of the hype and misinformation about the compatibility of DVD+RW.

The DVD FAQ is an excellent source of information about recordable DVD.

Regards.

I read it myself a few times. It is a great source of information and praised widely as such. However, the author has not updated the part on recordable DVD yet. It was written mostly BEFORE DVD+RW and DVD+R became gradually dominant in some markets.

[Kennyshin]

I have to agree with vitualis.

DVDplusRW.org is way too biased to be considered credible at all. Also, how can DVDPlusRW.org be the "complete source for anyone who compares the two different and non-compatible formats" when I hear that the moderators there are deleting links that show comparisons where DVD-R/W is more favorable than DVD+R/W (ie. http://www.dvdplusrw.org/cgi/ikonboard/topic.cgi?forum=2&topic=1797 ) and deleting older and archived posts on DVD-R/-RW/RAM to keep it a DVD+RW boys-only club. Also, they are 'banning' those that try to debunk DVD+R/W false statements and are stopping others from posting about their viewpoints and experiences from the DVD-R/W side. Thus, no real comparisons can ever be made between the two formats there. This is unfortunate and unfair to those looking for unbiased information on DVD recording. Thank goodness for vcdhelp!

The DVD FAQ may be a bit outdated (not by much though) but what it states is fact and provides unbiased and direct information - something DVDplusRW.org can only dream of doing. Also, be sure to check out Eug's FAQ, which is just as good, which is available here - http://www.anandtech.com/guides/viewfaq.html?i=118 (a little plug for ya there Eug )

On a side-note, is it just me or are these DVD+RW fanboys from DVDplusRW.org becoming more and more defensive and self-promoting (and in error - ie. john1290) each day? First, john1290's fanatical and offensive posts in that 'other' thread, then to the downright stupid (and inappropriate) comments on the S201 DVD-R drive, in a (failed) attempt to lower the rating of a DVD-R format drive, as seen here http://www.vcdhelp.com/dvdwriters.php?DVDnameid=19&Search=Search&list= (mod should clean that up) and now this foolish self-promotion. How low will these DVDplusRW.org people go...I for one, am getting fed up with this smear tactic (which seems to be originating from DVDplusRW.org and its members, after a quick visit to some of their forum threads).


Kusanagi

That is a complete lie. Delete? Try to find a single deleted topic thread. I tried to read all the threads from No. 1 up to the latest one again and again. I found NONE that was deleted.

I can list over 100 threads on DVD-RW and DVD-RAM that were posted not only by DVD-RW and DVD-RAM supporters but also by members such as myself.

Anyway, so far, DVDplusRW.org has the most accurate and complete information on DVD recordable since DVD+RW is the latest of all DVD recordable. I visit other places including VCDHelp.com and CDRlab.com but when it comes to DVD writing, DVDplusRW.org forum is the best place.

It's hard for me to understsand why moderators here haven't done something to Kusanagi. Kusanagi doesn't even know who is the moderator in DVDplusRW.org forum and he/she accuses it for something he doesn't know about.

[Kennyshin]

It is not entirely clear when Blu-Ray will be out but the info released earlier this year (search the forums for the earlier posts on this) suggests that products will be released by Christmas this year. Of course, this may be hype and market penetration will take some time.
Regards.

Hm... where did you get the information that Blu-ray will be released this year? Every information I've found says it will be between 2003 and 2005 and most of them say it will be in 2003 if lucky and may be delayed into 2004.

The only reason why Blu-ray is late on the market seems to be the cost. But as soon as the cost can drop to $1,000 per unit, it will gradually replace DVD recordables. Blu-ray is for the purpose of storing HDTV-quality video on DVD-like discs. Some people around me have used the latest HDTV PCI card to capture from HDTV and compress it with DivX. I also hope there will be ML Blu-ray by 2004.

[Kusanagi]

That is a complete lie. Delete? Try to find a single deleted topic thread. I tried to read all the threads from No. 1 up to the latest one again and again. I found NONE that was deleted.

So defensive are you, and so blinded you truly are. :P It looks like DVDplusRW.org has made you its little yapping b*tch.

That thread I pointed out earlier only proves that a link (to who really knows what - I can only gather it was a DVD-R/W & DVD+R/W comparison page) was deleted. I'm also seeing more and more discussions that relate to direct comparisons and, at times, talk more about DVD-R/-RW than DVD+R/+RW be locked by the moderators there, thus ending any or all comparisons and disucussions about both formats there. Just another attempt which further demonstrates that DVDplusRW.org is a biased site toward (and only and always) in favor of DVD+RW. Kenny you even say this yourself here - http://www.dvdplusrw.org/cgi/ikonboard/topic.cgi?forum=3&topic=53&start=40 :

Kenny Shin Posted on: 7:51 am on May 22, 2002
DVD+RW forum will forever remain to be pro +, of course.

If according to your own words then, how is DVDplusRW.org (as your earlier said) the "complete source for anyone who compares the two different and non-compatible formats" Obviously, this is all too contradictory...

Also, why do you insist on adding more flames to the fire and getting more DVDplusRW.org members to come to your rescue (and come here and be offensive and flame away - ie. john1290) by posting here - http://www.dvdplusrw.org/cgi/ikonboard/topic.cgi?forum=2&topic=1797. Just let it go and accept the truth...

After digging deeper, it seems that some posts at DVDplusRW.org are disappearing due to IkonBoard 3 problems/upgrade. However, it just looks like a coverup story, as many DVD-R/-RW/RAM threads are being deleted and locked recently, while the DVD+R/W threads remain unchanged and intact.

I can list over 100 threads on DVD-RW and DVD-RAM that were posted not only by DVD-RW and DVD-RAM supporters but also by members such as myself.

By looking over your recent posts, most of your DVD-RW and DVD-RAM related posts are really aimed to discredit DVD-RW and DVD-RAM (and with little merit and actual facts to support your statements). Essentially, all you're saying is that you post about DVD-RW or DVD-RAM, but again, in most of your posts you blandly state that DVD+RW and DVD+MRW(?) is the best hands down, no questions asked - further pushing your agenda that DVD+RW is the best (which in some situations, is not).

Also, after looking over your posts at DVDplusRW.org, I find that they go WAY off-topic and at times have no relevance at all to DVD recording technology. You go on and on about USB2.0, Serial ATA, motherboards, etc. - none directly releated (indirectly, perhaps, but not available yet) to DVD-R/-RW or DVD+R/+RW. I ask you not to flood these forums here with that type of information (that's why there is an OFF-TOPIC Forum here, exactly for info like that).

Anyway, so far, DVDplusRW.org has the most accurate and complete information on DVD recordable since DVD+RW is the latest of all DVD recordable.

*Biff impersonation from Back to the Future*

"Hello? Hello? Anybody home?..... think McFly, think."

You're kidding, right? If you want UNBIASED and direct FACTS before buying, DVDplusRW.org is the last place to look. Again, I HIGHLY recommend the following sites for information on DVD-R/-RW, DVD-RAM, and DVD+R/+RW. All state the pros and cons of each format and what they can (and can't) do in the situations you really need them for -

http://dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html#4.3

http://verbatim.com/products/images/dvd-rtechnologyupdate.pdf

http://www.anandtech.com/guides/viewfaq.html?i=118

http://www.dv-info.net/cgi-bin/ib/ikonboard.cgi

It's hard for me to understsand why moderators here haven't done something to Kusanagi. Kusanagi doesn't even know who is the moderator in DVDplusRW.org forum and he/she accuses it for something he doesn't know about.

Oh come on. Stop crying and get off it. Just because I, and other members and moderators here (see vitualis post above again), prove you wrong with what is really the truth, you resort to a low of whining now. And all it looks like now, is that you want to get your way by eliminating those that spread the truth and balanced facts here. DVDplusRW.org has an unfortunate history of spreading hype and misinformation. Need more justification? Just ask all those who bought first-generation DVD+RW DVD100i drives based on compatibility information DVDplusRW.org provided...I don't think they are all happy campers (some are even pulling together for a class-action lawsuit against HP).

I'm sorry Kenny, but Jorg isn't here to protect you and your sheltered & biased "facts" (also, Jorg is just as guilty - if you look at his "review" (1st one, on the bottom) here - http://www.vcdhelp.com/dvdwriters.php?DVDnameid=17&Search=Search&list=, all it is, is just more shameless plugs to DVDplusRW.org (and an attempt to raise the rating on a problem-plagued +RW unit). It's just a non-existent review (which is frowned upon - even see Baldrick's warning on the front page) to what has proved to be a troublesome recorder). If you haven't noticed this is VCDHelp not DVDplusRW.org. And if you continue your inconsiderate DVDplusRW self-promotion crusade here, I'm sure alot of members (and moderators) here will get tired of you very quickly - I know I already have.


Kusanagi

[Kennyshin]

That is a complete lie. Delete? Try to find a single deleted topic thread. I tried to read all the threads from No. 1 up to the latest one again and again. I found NONE that was deleted.

So defensive are you, and so blinded you truly are. It looks like DVDplusRW.org has made you its little yapping b*tch.

That thread I pointed out earlier only proves that a link (to who really knows what - I can only gather it was a DVD-R/W & DVD+R/W comparison page) was deleted. I'm also seeing more and more discussions that relate to direct comparisons and, at times, talk more about DVD-R/-RW than DVD+R/+RW be locked by the moderators there, thus ending any or all comparisons and disucussions about both formats there. Just another attempt which further demonstrates that DVDplusRW.org is a biased site toward (and only and always) in favor of DVD+RW. Kenny you even say this yourself here - http://www.dvdplusrw.org/cgi/ikonboard/topic.cgi?forum=3&topic=53&start=40 :

Kenny Shin Posted on: 7:51 am on May 22, 2002
DVD+RW forum will forever remain to be pro +, of course.

If according to your own words then, how is DVDplusRW.org (as your earlier said) the "complete source for anyone who compares the two different and non-compatible formats" Obviously, this is all too contradictory...

Also, why do you insist on adding more flames to the fire and getting more DVDplusRW.org members to come to your rescue (and come here and be offensive and flame away - ie. john1290) by posting here - http://www.dvdplusrw.org/cgi/ikonboard/topic.cgi?forum=2&topic=1797. Just let it go and accept the truth...

After digging deeper, it seems that some posts at DVDplusRW.org are disappearing due to IkonBoard 3 problems/upgrade. However, it just looks like a coverup story, as many DVD-R/-RW/RAM threads are being deleted and locked recently, while the DVD+R/W threads remain unchanged and intact.

I can list over 100 threads on DVD-RW and DVD-RAM that were posted not only by DVD-RW and DVD-RAM supporters but also by members such as myself.

By looking over your recent posts, most of your DVD-RW and DVD-RAM related posts are really aimed to discredit DVD-RW and DVD-RAM (and with little merit and actual facts to support your statements). Essentially, all you're saying is that you post about DVD-RW or DVD-RAM, but again, in most of your posts you blandly state that DVD+RW and DVD+MRW(?) is the best hands down, no questions asked - further pushing your agenda that DVD+RW is the best (which in some situations, is not).

Also, after looking over your posts at DVDplusRW.org, I find that they go WAY off-topic and at times have no relevance at all to DVD recording technology. You go on and on about USB2.0, Serial ATA, motherboards, etc. - none directly releated (indirectly, perhaps, but not available yet) to DVD-R/-RW or DVD+R/+RW. I ask you not to flood these forums here with that type of information (that's why there is an OFF-TOPIC Forum here, exactly for info like that).

Anyway, so far, DVDplusRW.org has the most accurate and complete information on DVD recordable since DVD+RW is the latest of all DVD recordable.

*Biff impersonation from Back to the Future*

"Hello? Hello? Anybody home?..... think McFly, think."

You're kidding right? If you want UNBIASED and direct FACTS before buying, DVDplusRW.org is the last place to look. Again, I HIGHLY recommend the following sites for information on DVD-R/-RW, DVD-RAM, and DVD+R/+RW. All state the pros and cons of each format and what they can (and can't) do in the situations you really need them for -

http://dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html#4.3

http://verbatim.com/products/images/dvd-rtechnologyupdate.pdf

http://www.anandtech.com/guides/viewfaq.html?i=118

http://www.dv-info.net/cgi-bin/ib/ikonboard.cgi

It's hard for me to understsand why moderators here haven't done something to Kusanagi. Kusanagi doesn't even know who is the moderator in DVDplusRW.org forum and he/she accuses it for something he doesn't know about.

Oh come on. Stop crying and get off it. Just because I, and other members and moderators here (see vitualis post above again), prove you wrong with what is really the truth, you resort to a low of whining now. And all it looks like now, is that you want to get your way by eliminating those that spread the truth and balanced facts here. DVDplusRW.org has an unfortunate history of spreading hype and misinformation. Need more justification? Just ask all those who bought first-generation DVD+RW DVD100i drives based on compatibility information DVDplusRW.org provided...I don't think they are all happy campers (some are even pulling together for a class-action lawsuit against HP).

I'm sorry Kenny, but Jorg isn't here to protect you and your sheltered & biased "facts" (also, Jorg is just as guilty - if you look at his "review" (1st one, on the bottom) here - http://www.vcdhelp.com/dvdwriters.php?DVDnameid=17&Search=Search&list=, all it is, is just more shameless plugs to DVDplusRW.org (and an attempt to raise the rating on a problem-plagued +RW unit). It's just a non-existent review (which is frowned upon - even see Baldrick's warning on the front page) to what has proved to be a troublesome recorder). If you haven't noticed this is VCDHelp not DVDplusRW.org. And if you continue your inconsiderate DVDplusRW self-promotion crusade here, I'm sure alot of members (and moderators) here will get tired of you very quickly - I know I already have.


Kusanagi

I'll keep this just as one more evidence.

Again, PROVE that any one thread was deleted. You'd better do it more carefully. Jorg himself has already explained about it days ago.

You and a few others have been just spreading lies about DVDplusRW.org for months.

[Kennyshin]

westblock was banned because he used some very "low" tactics to destroy and discredit DVDplusRW.org forum since he joined it.

It was discussed well in DV-Info.net, too.

[MOVIEGEEK]

You guys need to get a life,if somebody doesn't like + or - who cares get over it.