Afropic praise and comments (criticism ;-/ )

[ssevenup]

Last night after fighting with all the various tools and utilities since last week I finally managed to burn a VCD that plays perfectly in my commercial DVD player. I must admit I was lucky and I happened to choose a player that works with a lot of different formats and media. The whole process is painful at best, but it worked. I have visited this process several times over the past year, but never made it work until now. I would like to credit the author of Afropic since this was ultimately responsible for my success. On the other hand it also caused me a lot of grief because of a couple of small bugs that he is aware of. At one point it erased all the progress from the previous day and a half when the script had a path wrong so the file was not found. The script went ahead to the next step and deleted all the temp files in the prior step. Both Afropic and ffmpegX generate shell commands with no trapping or error checking, so this sort of thing is bound to happen. The author of Afropic claims that his process results in perfectly synched audio as compared to processes using mpeg2dec. I have not tried ffmpegX yet (it failed to work for me this morning), but I have had audio synch trouble in the past. My process for the foreseeable future will be to use Afropic to generate the shell scripts, and then massage them to be more reliable and robust. I would suggest to the folks writing wrappers that they continue to provide a method to use their GUI to generate the script, but also provide the option to stop there. Also, wrapping the binaries is cool, but an option to use the existing ones is very important. I compiled a newer mpeg2enc this past weekend because they added more altivec stuff. I had to edit the script to use it. Now that I have a useable workflow it's time to refine it.

--My thanks for all the obvious hard work so many are doing.

p.s. I posted in another thread about an a52dec pipe problem. The wrapper folks need to look at this issue with back ticks in OSX shell.

[bilestyle]

yes i am aware of a lot of the bugs in afropic, and i haven't had the time to pick through them all because im primarily workin on diff ripping methods and getting subs to work so .. patience... and you dont need to edit the script to get it to work with a new copy of mpeg2enc.. if you are using fink to compile the tools just copy the new mpeg2enc into /usr/bin and your golden.. it doesnt look inside of afropic for mpeg2enc.-- i have actually been toying with the notion of having a passive mode for afropic that just writes the shell script and doesnt actually execute it, for those who are farmiliar with shell scripting so they can edit them further if necessary.-- maybe in the next version ( i just dont know when that will be, i havent had a chance to work on it at all lately)

[toisanji]

Then if you are busy, it would probably be a good idea to just put up the source so people can add to it. That was the point of putting it under the GPL, right?

yes i am aware of a lot of the bugs in afropic, and i haven't had the time to pick through them all because im primarily workin on diff ripping methods and getting subs to work so .. patience... and you dont need to edit the script to get it to work with a new copy of mpeg2enc.. if you are using fink to compile the tools just copy the new mpeg2enc into /usr/bin and your golden.. it doesnt look inside of afropic for mpeg2enc.-- i have actually been toying with the notion of having a passive mode for afropic that just writes the shell script and doesnt actually execute it, for those who are farmiliar with shell scripting so they can edit them further if necessary.-- maybe in the next version ( i just dont know when that will be, i havent had a chance to work on it at all lately)

[Green Lantern]

ssevenup, you mentioned that you compiled a newer version of mpeg2enc. Where did you get the source code? I'd love to give it a try, especially if its altivec optimizations allow for faster encoding. Thanks.

[ssevenup]

http://sourceforge.net/projects/mjpeg

[KaiCherry]

On behalf of Bilestyle, and others who code and work behind the scenes:

You people need to stop with the "fix the bugs or release the source" crap.

Honestly.

This is all kinda grey here in the USA anyway so folks need to be a bit more...how do I put it...

Appreciative.

Seriously. As Mac Users, you *must* understand that it takes a minimum of 5x-10x the code to make a gui than it would for you people to crack open a term and type *a single line or command sequence*.

You might not want to, or think you "shouldn't have to" but ya' know what? That's the way it is sometimes. People are spending *countless* unpaid hours on this stuff; if they say a bug is being addressed, or being worked on later, or whatever, then it is.

My question all of you folks asking for the source is this: Why not *send* major or bilestyle some shell code that works the way you want it to?

Here's what I think: you guys don't know Cocoa or AStudio, but want to cash it on some of the glory, lol.

I know how to write proper shell scripts, with conditional branching, error checking etc.

The next generation of our shell wrappers will contain this code...if any of us still care to write it. Remember, once we have these things worked out, you, Joe User, getting them is a GIFT.

We aren't Amiga or PC d00dz or l33t haX0rs in the 'scene' looking for 'props' or even cash (altho me being out of work, I could use it) but as a way of helping other *Mac* users, because God knows no one else gives a rat's azz about us.

So if you want your tools to grow and improve...contribute something besides critisism.

Graphics are "nice"...Documetation is even better.

Code is King

Relax and chill...it could all end tomorrow.

Now, I'm getting back to work.

-K

[graffix jones]

With all due respect to KaiCherry...
Dude, you need to take a chill pill... nobody's saying 'fix the bugs or release the source' at all...
All they would like is to have a couple of (glaringly obvious) bugs fixed...
I'm glad you can write shell scripts with conditional branching... I learned that the first year into my CINS degree.
Exactly how hard would it be to change "rm movie.mpg" to "mv movie.mpg `/Users/$USER/.Trash`" in the code... is that a 'huge' burden on the coder?
This would make it a helluva lot easier to recover from an error, since the files would be located in the trash. Then the user could remove them by hand. This could just be a simple checkbox such as "save elementary streams after encode" or something... a simple 'if/else' statement.
Also, Applescript Studio is just about the simplest environment there is to use for programming... maybe 1 step harder than Visual Basic. The hardest part is creating outlets and instantiating classes in Interface Builder... other than that it's just drag'n'drop and type in the code.
I'm not trying to belittle bilestyle in any way, and in fact I think AfroPic is a great program... it's just that since he's bundling GPL'd software within his application bundle, he's 'required' to release the source if it's requested, whether he wants to or not... otherwise he needs to separate the GPL'd binaries from AfroPic. That's one problem with the GPL, and why it's considered a 'virus' that taints anything it touches.
In that respect, it almost seems like a 'no-brainer' to release the source, so that others can help maintain it and can fix their own bugs, rather than demand it be done by the original author.
That's just my opinion anyway...

[SCB]

Graffix, Kai isn't just referring to you in the complaint department. I'm always amazed when I come on here and see threads that say stuff like "ffmpegX is a piece of crap" or "Afropic sucks and has a lot of bugs", etc. Every post I've read like that, it's not the fault of the programmer, it's the fault of the dumb ass operator who is to lazy to do a little research and learn something. If you want something to be changed in a particular app, thank the person who is working on it and respectfully list your request(s). If you think an app sucks, don't complain about it. Either sit there and be happy that someone is actually working on it or make something yourself. Don't be an unappreciative whining bastard.

[KaiCherry]

With all due respect to KaiCherry...
Dude, you need to take a chill pill... nobody's saying 'fix the bugs or release the source' at all...
All they would like is to have a couple of (glaringly obvious) bugs fixed...
I'm glad you can write shell scripts with conditional branching... I learned that the first year into my CINS degree.
Exactly how hard would it be to change "rm movie.mpg" to "mv movie.mpg `/Users/$USER/.Trash`" in the code... is that a 'huge' burden on the coder?

That wouldn't have solved your problem; moving things to the trash doesn't free up the space needed later in the process. Your CINS degree should make this painfully obvious to you.

But wait...there's more...

... it's just that since he's bundling GPL'd software within his application bundle, he's 'required' to release the source if it's requested, whether he wants to or not...

You are DEAD WRONG here, sorry slick. This was hashed out *long* ago.

He would have to release his MODIFICATIONS to the GPL'd code ONLY...if he actually made any. Furthermore, he isn't "linking" it...he is using it UNMODIFIED.

That being said....

Its bad form to insult people, but say "I'm not trying to insult anyone."

Since you know so much, we await your first release...and I mean that in the nicest way.

Or as my grandma used to say...

"...or get off the pot."

With all due respect,

-K

[bilestyle]

okay graffix your seriously starting to make me aggravated- you obviously have no idea why the program cleans up after itself or how it fundamentally works if you think changing a LINE of code (thats a goddamn laugh) to change something to move a file to the trash rather than delete it.. and as kai pointed out its GLARINGLY obvious that just moving the file to the trash doesnt exactly warrant cleaning out the space. Considering how much space the program needs to run, your LUCKY i have it clean up each file after its done being used. So i dont have some traps and loops to check whether or not a file is created, that doesn't mean its a BUG. In order for me to fix a problem i have to be able to replicate it myself, i cant just say, "hey all these people have this problem, oh wait let me go to line 150 and change this one little thing" some people have no regard for the time and effort spent coding for people they dont even know (without anything in return except praise, and a little bit of self satisfaction, that doesnt exactly pay the bills now does it). the fact that you call the "bugs" glaringly obvious is probably the biggest insult of all, your lucky i keep churning out anything at all with disrespect like that.. i agree with kai in his final comment, i'd like to see you spit something out that so many people use SUCCESSFULLY daily to make their lives a little bit more simple. out of all my main testers i have yet to have ANY of them run into this problem where it looks for the ac3 file in the wrong folder-- so it has a bug, change the shell script yourself or write your own damn program, b4 you make me too angry to write anymore myself.

[toisanji]

KaiCherry, If your comment was not created because of me than excuse me, but if it was, I never said "fix the bugs or release the source". bilestyle had said he is too busy right now, so I said maybe he could release the code so some other people who had some time could work on it(that is why I thought he put it under the GPL).
When did I make any criticisms?

On behalf of Bilestyle, and others who code and work behind the scenes:

You people need to stop with the "fix the bugs or release the source" crap.

Honestly.

Read my post, where does it say "fix bugs or release the source?"

This is all kinda grey here in the USA anyway so folks need to be a bit more...how do I put it...

Appreciative.

When I understand what you meant, maybe I will reply to that.

Seriously. As Mac Users, you *must* understand that it takes a minimum of 5x-10x the code to make a gui than it would for you people to crack open a term and type *a single line or command sequence*.

Sorry, I'm not a mac user from before X, but I don' think that too many mac users were cracking open terminals before X, and even now, I highly doubt too many classic mac users are 'cracking open terminals'

You might not want to, or think you "shouldn't have to" but ya' know what? That's the way it is sometimes. People are spending *countless* unpaid hours on this stuff; if they say a bug is being addressed, or being worked on later, or whatever, then it is.

Who told people to waste their time writing "countless unpaid" hours to write these programs?
And about the problem I had, no one told me a bug was being addressed.

My question all of you folks asking for the source is this: Why not *send* major or bilestyle some shell code that works the way you want it to?

I'm sure that will really help!!!
Seriously, I think that it would be much better to help build upon existing code than sending in some shell scripts.

Here's what I think: you guys don't know Cocoa or AStudio, but want to cash it on some of the glory, lol.

Cash in on the glory? The reason why I wanted the source released was so I could try to find the source of a problem I am having that no one was helped me with.
I write code, one of the platforms I code on is mac, therefore I do know cocoa and astudio.

I know how to write proper shell scripts, with conditional branching, error checking etc.

The next generation of our shell wrappers will contain this code...if any of us still care to write it. Remember, once we have these things worked out, you, Joe User, getting them is a GIFT.

I'm glad you can write shell scripts.
A GIFT? I know that in linuxland(which is where the base of these programs come from), these aren't gifts. If someone doesn't write or continuing writing a program, then someone else will, and so these programs will always exist in some form. It is up to that developer if he want to continue 'wasting countless unpaid' hours working on it. When a developer gives up or is too busy, then someone else can continue working on it. That is how it is over in linuxland. And since OS X had BSD roots, some of these 'traditions' have migrated(and evolved) as it went to the mac platform.

We aren't Amiga or PC d00dz or l33t haX0rs in the 'scene' looking for 'props' or even cash (altho me being out of work, I could use it) but as a way of helping other *Mac* users, because God knows no one else gives a rat's azz about us.

I don't think all of the coders would agree with you about them not being "l33t". I would also think that helping mac users is kind of the same thing as looking for 'props'. You will obviously get props for helping people(which is a good thing).

So if you want your tools to grow and improve...contribute something besides critisism.

Again, show me the criticism I made.
The only criticisms I have made in this thread so far is about your comment to me.(once again, excuse this if you didn't make it to me)
I am trying to contribute some code. I still don't know what is up with the source though.

Graphics are "nice"...Documetation is even better.

Code is King

I agree.

Relax and chill...it could all end tomorrow.

Now, I'm getting back to work.

-K

well, since I've been relaxing the whole time, I guess I'll continue relaxing.
Whether the code actually gets released or not, I could care less. I don't have tons of free time to add too much anyway and I am already involved in a few projects, I just had thought that since it was under the GPL, then it might be a good idea for the code to be opened so that it could be improved faster by having more developers being able to read/modify the code, like you can do with ffmpeg, mpeg2enc, mp2enc, vcdimager, mplex, mpgtv, yuvscalwr, yuvdenoise, movtowav, movtoy4m, lame, OpenBSD, darwin, and countless other projects/programs

[toisanji]

=(

With all due respect to KaiCherry...
Dude, you need to take a chill pill... nobody's saying 'fix the bugs or release the source' at all...
All they would like is to have a couple of (glaringly obvious) bugs fixed...
I'm glad you can write shell scripts with conditional branching... I learned that the first year into my CINS degree.
Exactly how hard would it be to change "rm movie.mpg" to "mv movie.mpg `/Users/$USER/.Trash`" in the code... is that a 'huge' burden on the coder?

That wouldn't have solved your problem; moving things to the trash doesn't free up the space needed later in the process. Your CINS degree should make this painfully obvious to you.

But wait...there's more...

... it's just that since he's bundling GPL'd software within his application bundle, he's 'required' to release the source if it's requested, whether he wants to or not...

You are DEAD WRONG here, sorry slick. This was hashed out *long* ago.

He would have to release his MODIFICATIONS to the GPL'd code ONLY...if he actually made any. Furthermore, he isn't "linking" it...he is using it UNMODIFIED.

Hey slick, who cares if 'He would have to release his MODIFICATIONS to the GPL'd code ONLY'. If you read the license INCLUDED with afropic, it says that the program is opensource and under the GPL, therefore the source has to be released.
But once again, I could care less if the code is released or not, I am just pointing out that you are wrong.

That being said....

Its bad form to insult people, but say "I'm not trying to insult anyone."

Since you know so much, we await your first release...and I mean that in the nicest way.

Or as my grandma used to say...

"...or get off the pot."

With all due respect,

-K

Well, I'm trying to insult you, so please don't use that lame line on me.
With all due respect,

[bilestyle]

tor- i dont think those comments were aimed at you, you are taking things too personally when they aren't even meant towards you, i believe he was aiming the bulk of his comments at graffix jones for his total lack of respect in his replies-

i had nothing against any of the things you were saying TILL now, the fact that you say no one TOLD us to spend hours coding unpaid or anything and that someone else would do it themselves is just COMPLETELY assinine.

The bugs you have spoken about i've been told of before and i said i would work on fixing them- i cant believe such a controversy has blown up over this.

and tor- you have NO idea what we are about to release and im sorry, but i damn well know for a FACT that no one is releasing any of what is about to come (or anything NEAR its magnitude) anytime soon if EVER. so it is a GIFT, and you will realize this IF and when we put it out (considering all this crap im putting up with about bugs and source code i dont know if i want to deal with coding ANYTHING for the public anymore)

[tgpo]

No bashing or the topic will be locked and if need be users banned. Everyone needs to see that bilestyle is doing us a favor by working on this project. Constructive critisim is fine, but no bashing is allowed. If you have nothing nice to say then say nothing. I would like to thank you though bilestyle for working on this project and hope other people feel the same way.

[KaiCherry]

Tori- and Grapf- have convinced me that I have been wasting my time with all of this, so I've decided to stop.

That's sorta how it goes folks. Well-meaning people, in fits of 'net rage' let loose stupid comments that are baseless.

I have decided that since I'm satisfied with what I've worked on for me, that its good enough for me.

To that end, I'm going to have to say that I will not be working on anymore of this stuff for awhile. it was being done for fun and in all honesty, the fun is gone.

Now..for a lil' rant:

The GPL is a Bad Thing, and because of it, we almost *never* got Altivec code into mpeg2enc...but a lot of you don't know that.

Its not bad for what it tries to do *for* people; its bad because of what it does *to* people.

I'm sure that some here have and had good intentions, but to have to indure two tirades from GPL zealots is uncalled for, counterproductive and in all honesty, unmerited.

If I ever work on anything like this again, I guarantee you that if I...

Scratch that. I'm thru. Good Luck.

-K

[toisanji]

tor- i dont think those comments were aimed at you, you are taking things too personally when they aren't even meant towards you, i believe he was aiming the bulk of his comments at graffix jones for his total lack of respect in his replies-

I didn't take it personally, I just took as much time as he did to reply to this thread.
My bad, I thought the comments were to me.

i had nothing against any of the things you were saying TILL now, the fact that you say no one TOLD us to spend hours coding unpaid or anything and that someone else would do it themselves is just COMPLETELY assinine.

Listen, I wasn't saying that you are wasting your time, I was replying to his comment in which he was saying that you guys are spending countless hours on it, which I know you are, and I appreciate that, but there was no point in him telling us how much of a gift it is and how much time you guys are spending on us. What I meant was, if he thinks he is spending countless hours on it, then don't do it.

The bugs you have spoken about i've been told of before and i said i would work on fixing them- i cant believe such a controversy has blown up over this.

and tor- you have NO idea what we are about to release and im sorry, but i damn well know for a FACT that no one is releasing any of what is about to come (or anything NEAR its magnitude) anytime soon if EVER. so it is a GIFT, and you will realize this IF and when we put it out (considering all this crap im putting up with about bugs and source code i dont know if i want to deal with coding ANYTHING for the public anymore)

From the posts that kai has made, I think I do understand what you are about to release, you are about to release some software that will take away all the sync problems, in which I am sure all of us will deeply appreciate it, since these sync problems have been around for so long.

I do understand a lot of the crap you are dealing with in terms of people.
I've worked writing software for a long time, both for the public and for companies, and I've had to deal with this kind of BS too. I'm honestly sorry that you've had to deal with these problems. I DO appreciate what you have done, but if someone(kai) tries to put me down(I thought he was directing his comments to me) then of course I am going to say something. The only thing I was honestly trying to do was help with coding, not 'stealing glory' or whatever ridiculous comment he made.
Seriously, thanks for afropic.

[KaiCherry]

After talking it over a bit with B-, I've decided to go ahead and finish this off.

Also, since he made the mistake of GPL'ing AfroPic due to his mistunderstanding of the requirements of the GPL in the first place, i've convinced him to release the source.

This will allow use to concentrate on the new stuff anyway, instead of trying to wedge it into this.

Its going to take a bit longer now, but thems the breaks.

Also, I'm going to make it clear, right here and right now for anyone else that wants to write these things:

You do NOT have to GPL wrapper code, if it merely runs executables.

This has NEVER been a GPL requirement. Specifically, if you incorporate source of a GPL'd program into your source(1), or modify gpl source(2), you have compliance requirements.

In case 1, you are required to release your source. In case (2) your are required to release the changes to the source.

I believe this really needs to be cleared up; I *know* because of this many improvements that people want to make to their wrappers are *not* being made.

When it gets down to the "hard" code, "giving it away" becomes...a challenge.

Release what you have, no matter how broken, and close it up so it gets as good as you want it to be, as opposed to what you are willing to "give away"...

I'm back to work...

-K

[rockinsage]

KaiCherry (and Bilestyle),

Thanks for the info and for your ongoing work. Much appreciated by many.

-- rockinsage

[graffix jones]

Wow...
I didn't realize that my post would stir up such a hornet's nest...
Anyway... rather than try to address everything that's been said either about, or to, me in this thread, I think I'll just leave it at this...
I have complimented bilestyle numerous times on AfroPic, from my very first post here to the very last... I NEVER have berated him at all, aside from pointing out that there are a few obvious bugs that need to be fixed with this program in my last post to this thread...
For that, I get verbally thrashed by the man himself and his sidekick KaiCherry... (net rage? what the fsck is that?)
Oh well...
/me drops AfroPic into the trashcan and empties it.
How ya like them apples?

Kaicherry Wrote:

Tori- and Grapf- have convinced me that I have been wasting my time with all of this, so I've decided to stop.

That's sorta how it goes folks. Well-meaning people, in fits of 'net rage' let loose stupid comments that are baseless.

Well, if my (relatively benign) comments (that weren't even directed at your software) are enough to make you quit, then be my guest... Oh, and my name has 2 f's... and toisanji's doesn't have an 'r' in it.
Oh, and to toisanji... just in case you were wondering, this is Dyno. I recommended AfroPic to you and also told you this BBS was a great place to find help... forget I said any of that. It appears I was wrong on both counts.

[KaiCherry]

This was resolved and squashed *hours* and *hours* ago.

Wow. Good Times...good times.

-K

[bilestyle]

yeh i cant really help but think this had been resolved earlier and there is not really any reason to throw more gas on the fire.

[toisanji]

to kair:
one more thing kair, I just saw this post, I had never seen it before, I guess I accidently skipped over it:
>Tori- and Grapf- have convinced me that I have been >wasting my time with all of this, so I've decided to >stop

I know this is over, but I really don't understand how I had anything to do with you stopping. I only pointed out where you wrong. I did NOT start any trouble, it was started between you and graph, and I just pointed out where you were wrong. If you read the whole thread, the netrage was between you and him, I only REPLIED to your post.
Sorry, OMFG, as I read further into your post, you call me a GPL zealot? I can't believe anyone would actually think I was a GPL zealot. This isn't f*cking slashdot. hahaha, I hate the GPL and stay away from it. If I ever need to use other's code for my stuff, I make sure it is at least BSD licensed or similar. I asked to HELP, not to be a b*tch and demand source. I wanted to fix a bug myself becuase I had a feeling that biler was too busy. PLEASE READ the thread. I NEVER threatened with the GPL, it was between you and graph, and I only mentioned about the GPL to point out where you were wrong. I had only asked about the GPL earlier to as what the point was for releasing under the GPL, becuase I thought that people normally releae under the PGL becuase they wanted people to HELP. At that time, I didn't know biler made the mistake thinking he had to release under the GPL. Once again, read the THREAD.
I am sorry that I sent you an email saying sorry to you earlier, I didnt see your other post.
So I guess biler was wrong, you were directing your baseless crap to me.

>so I've decided to stop.
later:
>I've decided to go ahead and finish this off.

Make up your mind.

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OK, please dont add more crap here, this is a done thread, I just missed that one post and had to reply.