Mpeg quality from DV camcorder

[bmiller]

I've tried numerous conversions of digital video from my canon zr20 camcorder,and have yet to get decent quality from motion.Still shots look ok.
I've captured with Pinnacle studio 7 at full dv quality,created an avi with the dv encoder compression,and then encoded with Tmpge plus at various sizes from 720x480 mpeg2 vbr,to mpeg1 320x480,to cvd.I've used Virtual Dub to frameserve the captured full dv quality file to Tmpge.
I've even captured the same video from the inputs on my vcr to my ati tv capture card at mpeg2 8.0 mbps,de-multiplexed in Tmpge,and encoded to a lower bit rate mpeg2.
Every file has bad jerky motion when the camera moves around,with a few artifacts in some scenes.
I tried capturing an mpeg2 from the satellite tv using the ati tv capture,and it turned out fine.
I suspect the camera is just a piece of junk,but i'm not sure if my process is the problem or the camera itself.
Anyone have a similar problem,or use the same camera with good results,let me know.Thanks for any help.
Brad

[Peka]

TMPGEnc has settings for motion precision. You should experiment with those. What kind of motion is it?

[bmiller]

I've used High quality(slow) for most of them,but also normal,and fast,as provided from some of the templates on this site.
I'm at a loss.The best i can come up with is the camera itself.

[vhelp]

bmiller,

perhaps it's time for another app!! I can't say I've ever used
PS7, but I've used Studio 7 (maybe the same) for my DC10+ (MJPEG) captures
and have not experienced poor quality. My quick guess is that you are
NOT yet skilled w/ your DV cam projects (encoding Interlaced DV)

But, just remember, you DV cam is "pure Interlace" not telecine or other.
1 for DV, every frame is Interlaced together.
2 something you're missing in your MPEG-2 encodes
3 you're expecting DVD quality, which is misconection w/ deaing w/ DV

The camera is NOT a piece of junk. Its not Studio or Cenima quality.
Perhapes you're expecting too much. In any case, my ZR-10 provides me
w/ great looking quality results, once processed in my skiled hands.

Have you decided on an output goal ?? that is, do you want to view your
footage on TV or PC ??

If PC, then consider divX as an alternative (unless you are not fluent w/
it) then forget that alltogether.
If for TV viewing, then continue as you were, with MPEG-2, and try..
* some encodes w/ Interlaced ON.
* or, try w/ Interlace OFF (de-interlace filter)

I don't consider PS7 the app of choice. Rather, I use DVIO and then I
frameserve: via vdub(filters) -> tmpg -> cvd/svcd/divX

Example:
--------
* MPEG-2, encode w/ Interlace, or de-Interlace
* divX, encode w/ de-Interlace

One thing to note here, when dealing w/ camcorders..
Shakes.. they are notorious for blocks/pixelations and artifacts etc.
Zooming.. the save as above and worse..
with slightest movement. Our hands/arms are not fluid. And, when we
encode the DV to MPEG, bitrates will suffer most, hence your disatisfaction.

Practice holding your cam steady'er.
Try using one hand operatoin instead of two, as two will add to sudden jerks
and knocks - trust me here.
And, learn the art of Tripoding
You'll find your encodes come out even better - not studio quality, but better
then you were getting before.

-vhelp

[vcdhowto]

Im kinda lost here as to what your saying.

Are you upset with the quality of the file after importing to your computer??(capture card/program settings problem)

OR

Are you upset with the quality of the video after mpeg encoding? (mpeg settings problem)

your dv cam is a consumer level camcorder which means it basically sucks in low light conditions (even outside) So when you connect your cam to the tv if the results are upsetting yes it is your camcorder.

So what are you trying to do just compress file to save disk space while maintaining quality? or trying to make an vcd,svcd?

ill try to help after i get those answers cause i dont know where to start.
im thinking the video looks great after importing but when you try to encode to mpeg you fail like everyone who comes to these forums. but theres help

[bmiller]

Thanks for the response.I plan to watch them on tv.Save them on cd,and eventually dvd instead of tape.I'll sacrifice disk space for quality.35-40 minutes of xvcd/cd.That's about all anyone wants to watch of home movies anyway.
I think i'm expecting too much from the dv camera.Yes the sudden movement,or fast movement across a room produces stutering,jerky picture.I guess this is one of the properties of dv video.Low light conditions give a grainy video,hence the more light the better.If the camera is held steady the picture is just fine.I have a 50" widescreen hdtv,and everything is magnified.
I use studio 7.Question.From reading on this site and others,the dv camera records and compresses real time to the tape.Studio 7 then transfers,through firewire to the computer without recompressing the video.When you make an avi with studio 7,i assume this compresses the video,and then Tmpge mpeg2 encoding compresses again.
If i frameserve the captured video through virtual dub to Tmpge to make my mpeg2,does this pass up one compression for the final video?
Do other applications do a better job than studio 7,or are they all about the same?Studio 7 is simple to use,and does everything i want.The problem is any editing done in studio has to be saved as a studio file and can't be frameserved through virtual dub,correct?
Sorry for the long post.And thanks again for the constructive critisizm.
Brad

[donpedro]

Yep ! Problem is in your "hands" Shaking too much. Try shoot with tripod. Sa far as Studio AVI loss goes... try this:

Pinnacle Studio 8 and DV home video editing

Some of issues that you might have are same as with Studio 8.

Shortly... If you save in same AVI codec as you captured (DV Codec in my case), only transitions or editid parts will re-create (re-encode) to new AVI section. You can see it if you stay watching what Studio does when you save project in AVI. Rest of your project (not-edited with titles, transitions or somthing..) will be just copied as it is.

[vhelp]

evening all.

bmiller,
here's some things to try..
* add more light, as you indicated, lower light DOES add noise (grain) to your
video. Hence, the more bitrate will be required - if you have a fixed number
of bitrate set, then this grainy effect or noise, will be too much for the limited
bitrate you set - you'll have to compensate maybe. would be easier to just add
some more light, in your future DV caming.
* forget about using effect(transistions etc) Just work with getting your encodes
into decent quality. As donpedro said, theres some re-encoding if you
add such effects. Leave these items alone till you worked out what is acceptable
quality MPEGs.
* I would not recommend Exporting your DV into other AVI formats or even back
into DV AVI clips.
* If you want as best a quality from your DV home footage, then your best bet
would be to use an outside encode ie TMPG. This is the encoder of choise (IMO)
But, if you are NOT familiar with it, then you're basically right back where
you started from. In any case, I would recommend you start searching and reading
many posts on TMPG encoding effectiveness, etc. It's the weekend. You got lots
of tinkering to do.
* If you're not too serious about quality after all (that I said above) and
so on, then you may want to opt w/ whatever makes you happy (called, compremise)
* three's more to add here, but I can't think of everything for ya.

Anyways..
And, finally, your encoding process may still be to blaim. Remember what I said
about DVD vs. DV quality. You'll never get the same from both, the DVD will
win all the time.

You DV cam's lens also plays a part in this quality issue. so the the CCD specs.

I don't recall reading you stating weather or not you connected the DV cam
directly to your TV set while you had the DV cam in Camera mode, and you panned
the Camera around while you watched it on your TV, (normal size and HDTV or
or widescreen) And, testing quality on all TV set this way, with various
light levels.
If all look good, then its the DV cam-to-final MPEG steps or process you
have to take a look at. I think you may want to take a look at this first,
before you continue. Just hook up your DV cam's RCA (yello) jack to your TV's
RCA (yello) jack, or if S-Video are on both, then use that.

Since I don't have a widescreen tv or larger than 13" TV set, I can't actually
guage what I'm talking about agianst yours and others 100% w/ respect to what
you are seeing. I'll have to rely on your eyes instead and take w/ one or
two grains of salt

I do hope you iron out your quality issues in any case.
-vhelp

[Peka]

Remember what I said
about DVD vs. DV quality. You'll never get the same from both, the DVD will win all the time.

Are you serious? DVD is better quality than DV??

[vhelp]

>> Are you serious? DVD is better quality than DV??

No! I'm talking about DVD (ie, Cenima/Studio quality movies on DVD)
not DVD vs. DV codec or DVD converted to DV anything else you may
assume.

Again, I'm talking about DVD vs. footage from DV cams and converted
to MPEG-2 (from a users' DV CAMcorder ie Canon's ZR-10, ZR-20 in
posters case etc)

Perhaps I misrepresented myself in text, gramatically speaking
Again, when comparing DVD to DV, I'm talking about once DV (from a
user's home-footage, DV cam) is converted to MPEG-2. Hence, comparing
DVD vs. DV. Sorry if it sounded missleading.

I'm sure there are a lot of varous levels/stages/quality of DV cams and
their quality intriquicies I'm sure.., but for majority of home-users, this is
what I'm refering to. My Canon DV Cam ZR-10 is nothing in comparison
to a Studio or Professionally made DVD ie, my movies on my DVDs are far
better than ANY footage I have taken w/ my ZR-10, Encoding to a final
MPEG-2

-vhelp

[TheInformer]

Just a little thing you might want to check out...

When you are reading the DV video into your software program, do you have the correct field order? Try switching field order and see if it makes a difference.

BTW, some raw numbers for the DV/DVD debate-
DVD Specs: 720x480, 1 hr video = 2-2.5 gigs (an average)
DV specs: 720x480, 1 hr video = 13.6 gigs (constant)

[Peka]

No! I'm talking about DVD (ie, Cenima/Studio quality movies on DVD)
not DVD vs. DV codec or DVD converted to DV anything else you may
assume

Ah, that makes more sense! You can't beat a top quality source for making top quality DVD's.

eg. Rip Star Wars episode 2 and re-encode to 2500-3000 kbps and it will probably still look better than a full DVD quality MPEG2 made from home DV camera source

[vhelp]

ah..haa.
What a coinsidence. I was just thinking/debating weather or not to run
out in the SNOW/blizard (NY) to pick me up a copy (k-mart right down da
street 1/2 mile run, and don't mind it at'tall) I've already got EP-I.
well, Anyways... I don't know what the quality is like on it, but I seem
to recall that it was said to be in semi quality. I'm also looking for
Duce Bigalo All stores seems to be out of'vem.
But, IMO, I thought quality was good. ..only watched the DVD once.
I think it was also stated that EP-2 was in better quality this time
around ??

Anyways..
back to posters thread he he..

If it weren't for that blastid Interlace on DV cams (my ZR-10 ie) I think
that quality might be even better than it is now. Don't get me wrong.. I
make very good quality encodes from MY dv cam footage. But, just not DVD
quality (I wish) I also use the 16:9 AR (to the best of my ability/understng
of it all) and, I feel it comes out pretty good under my eyes.

-vhelp

[bmiller]

Thanks gents.I hooked up the camera to the tv and panned around the room.Slow movement and still shots are fine.Fast movement is obviously blurry as it should be.
I have been using pinnacle studio7 to capture with firewire in full dv quality,cutting out the bits i don't want,no transitions,and then making an avi.I also use Tmpgenc plus to encode mpeg2 720x480 2 pass 3000 max.1200 min.2100 average.This low bitrate may be my biggest problem.
The final mpeg's are ok,but some pixelation,and blurry video in slower moving scenes.
Maybe its time to get a dvd burner,so i can raise the bitrate to 6000-7000.
Things to do
1-steady the camera,more light.
2-Dvd burner,and better capture soft ware.
3-Get my wife,who shoots all the video, to watch the results of her work.
4-Read,learn and experiment.
Thanks again boys and girls.My monetery contribution to the operatoers of this site has been payed back many times over.
Brad

[hakuba]

My soccer video's had same problem, when I changed the GOP strutcture in TMPGE to I=1 P=4 B=1 and max frames to 15 every thing was great after that. My soccer dubs from Hi8 were smooth as original.

Hope this helps.

[donpedro]

My soccer video's had same problem, when I changed the GOP strutcture in TMPGE to I=1 P=4 B=1 and max frames to 15 every thing was great after that. My soccer dubs from Hi8 were smooth as original.

Hope this helps.

Hehe.... Are you saying that I have to learn now what all that I, P, and B means to get better results from TMPGEnc ? Ufff.... I am tired already.

Now seriously. Let's see if it will help... Thanks.

[Donny661]

bmiller

Have you looked in the source tab of tmpg's settings and looked at the field order(field order has to do with interlaced fields such as in DV so this doesn't apply if you ran it through a deinterlace filter before tmpg or if it's progressive footage like from a DVD)? Because, DV is always bottom field first and I believe that tmpg's default is top field first. I think that would be the main cause of jerkiness when panning and the like.

Also, don't encode at 720x480 at a avg. bitrate of 2100. That is way too high resolution for that low of a bitrate. Higher resolution means less bits per 16x16 block of pixels(mpeg assings bits to each block otherwise if it did it by each pixel encoding would take a lot longer), so the lower the resolution, the more bits per block and that means less artifacts/noise. Try using the SVCD resolution of 480x480, or even better yet, CVD's of 352x480. This will give you a slightly softer picture, but a much more watchable picture. High resolution is only warented if you have the higher bitrates to work with(at least 3000kB avg. for 720x480).[/b]

[bmiller]

Tmpg default is bottom field B.At least 2.59 is when you start the program.
I wondered if 720x480 16x9 at 2000-2500 was a bit of a stretch.I tried the cvd template,and vcd template.The picture was obviously softer,but the stuttering bits were still there,hence video camcorder taking problems.
Has anyone noticed a major difference from svcd's on cd-r to making dvd's on a dvd burner?I've been looking at the sony dru500a dual burner.
Sounds like the way to go.

[Peka]

3-Get my wife,who shoots all the video, to watch the results of her work.

No offense to your wife, but your camera operator may be part of the problem. If the person behind the camera has little experience, or isn't as interested in the sport as you, they're less likely to think about getting good angles, keeping it steady (if you don't use a tripod, which you should!), zooming out a bit when the motion gets too fast etc. I only say this coz I've had other people video Karate tournaments for me, and if you don't spend some time with them explaining some important points when behind the camera, you will be disappointed with the results.

So, definately get her to watch her own work and give her some ideas on how she can improve. Also, you should both go out and practise shooting stuff and review it before the event.

Cheers,

[bmiller]

No offence taken.Pretty much my thoughts on the camera operator.I shall try that.
Brad

[johnrbaker]

I am using Studio 8 with my Sony DV camera. I captured and edit the video, and exported it directly to DVD-RW. I used 8Mbps MPEG2 video with 48KHz PCM sound on the DVD-RW disk. This then played back without any problems in my standalone DVD player. The quality was excellent, but the recoding time was limited to 1 hour per disk.

[bmiller]

I grabbed the video camera,and ran some tests with it inside and out.The low light setting the camera was on causes most of the problems i've seen over the holidays.You can see while taking the video the trails on moving objects.I removed the low light setting and added indoor,or out door,and voila.Holding the camera steady without the low light setting produced good video indoors.The same with the outdoor setting outside.This was playing the video on a 50" tv before editing.
Encoding is the next test,but being familiar with Tmpge plus,and captured video improvement,i expect much better results.
Thanks to all who helped.

[Peka]

Glad to have helped. Don't forget to look for a tripod if you don't have one already