A thought about miniDVDs and standalones...

[kinneera]

It has been suggested that the reason a lot of standalone players that can't play CD-Rs can play CD-RWs is because the CD-RW fools the player into thinking its a DVD. While this probably isn't really true, if it were, it would stand to reason that burning the miniDVD format to a CD-RW and playing in back in one of those standalones would work. Has anyone tested this theory?

[Kdiddy]

Must I really tell you why??..because you porlly won't believe me because I may not be EXACT enough for you..so instead follow this link..and scan down to "compability issues"....and then you will have the answer to your question...this way newbs dont get confused as well

http://www.pctechguide.com/10dvd.htm

[kinneera]

I know the love difference between all the media and the playback mechansisms (yes, laser wavelengths of light and all that crap), so stop acting holier-than-though you idiot. The issue I'm referring to, since you appear not to know, is the fact that SOME DVD players, for whatever reason, will NOT recognize CD-Rs, but will recognize CD-RWs. There is no media-based logical explanation for this, and one of the suggestions that has been posed is that it is simply because CD-RWs reflect the laser light back on a wavelength closer to true DVD and thus falls within the narrower error-handling schemes employed by DVD players that are not guaranteed for writable media playback. Thus, this is an issue of what the DVD player believes it is playing, for whatever reason, regardless of the scientific details/arguments regarding the media/technology. So just for kicks, I posed the suggestion that CD-RWs that are burned as miniDVDs might actually work in these players, since they (may) already be improperly detecting CD-RWs as DVDs, and asked if anyone has actually tried this out. Some of you people need to find better uses of your time than pursuing pathetic, uninformed, personal vendettas against other users of the forum you feel slighted you in some way.

[Kdiddy]

Uninformed...LOL, well here's a suggestion to keeping off the suppose personal attacks...A) Stop posting stupid sh!t, or B) Stop posting...the choice is yours...and if you took the time again to READ & COMPREHEND, you might actually learn something.....The you would learn that while yes some players pick up the CDRW because of reflectivity, it will not be properly read for a few reasons....(now before you go all willy nilly Mr. EXACT on me here, I am putting pieces together from what I was told & read)...one thing is how CDR(W)s are burned...that to which you referred as "all that crap" tells about how the sectors & tracks on a CDRw are different from those on a DVD...plus the info about tracks/sectors is encoded when the burning software writes the "lead-in & lead-out" points on the disk....so EVEN though it initially passes the "reflectivity" test, when the DVD reads the lead-in...it discovers mismatch in info about sector/track sizes...and stops, continously spins searching for the correct/needed info, or errors out....which why you need a firmware hack like I did for my GE1101P...the hack fools the internal processor into allowing the CDRW to be process as a DVD.....the other problem is also stated in the miniDVD section on this site....that is the CDRW when read will be read by the majortiy of players as being a disk should only contain VCD or SVCD info...and when it does not...again no play..and then lastly the most OBVIOUS & common reason is that 95% of the standalone DVD players lack the drive speed, because of phyisical differences, "all that crap", ", 'tween a DVD & CDR, the disk has to be spun at a certain speed to read the data off the disk correctly...most DVD standalone players spin no higher than 2X, 4x if ya lucky...which only translates to ~2.4mpbs(2x) to ~4.8mbps(4x) of data on CDRW, anything above that on a CDR will not be decoded correctly by the player and result in sttutering/choppy playback...I had this problem on my player...even though the firmware hack fooled my player into thinking it was a DVD, the DVD dive still only spins at its max 2x...this is why I had to lower it to SVCD bitrate speed, when I did that, it worked just fine....so the pure definition of miniDVD/cDVD is correct in THEORY ONLY, but inherently wrong in today's REAL WORLD application because you wont get a 5mps+ bitrate movie on a CDRW to play correctly (not that you would want to because the low amount time per disk), and why many players wont play of regular SVCDs, because the theorectical max for it is 2.6mbps which is also above the 2x drive speed range....now for those venturous enough & who can stand 15 mins of REAL DVD quality on a CDR(W), most of the Apex models have regular IDE DVD-ROM drives in them....which can be swapped out for a say 12X DVD-ROM drive, and thus solving the speed problem, then all you have to do is again hack the firmware, to which I think they are only maybe 3-4 Apex models with hackable miniDVD firmware....All of this, I tried to point out to you in the other postings...If and by the time standalones reach 8x (9.6mpbs) capabale barrier for a CDRW, DVD-Rs will probably be so common place...that may not even be a need for the 8x players, and Im sure they are probably leaning more toward this considering how prices on the DVD-burners & media are steadily falling....but then again what I do I know...Im "Uninformed" right??..LOL

Kinneera, if you still read this far...man Im not launching a personal attack on you. I have no problem admitting I am wrong or do not know something..like the above, I feel about 90% confident in what I am saying to be accurate....however in the other post, you accused me saying something I did not say, especially when I said quite the opposite....and when falsely accused of something, I make d@mn sure I set that person straight on what I said & meant.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kdiddy on 2001-08-27 12:13:39 ]</font>

[kinneera]

Most of that is fair enough, with a couple of exceptions. The players that I refer to (such as my own), read the CD-RW and do not crap out at all (without firmware hacks). It may be true that it is because it has in fact determined that it is a CD-type media, I never contested that possibility, I was just proposing a test to see if this is always the case.

It is also not fair to start claiming discs are miniDVD willy-nilly, just because the spin speed of most DVD standalones can't handle the data rate. This is simply one of the known, and specified, problems of miniDVDs - in fact the primary problem. But just because the technology can't handle it doesn't mean we can redefine it. If your standalone can't play miniDVDs, that's fine, you're stuck with SVCD at best or buying the actual DVD. Just please don't go making SVCDs and claiming they are miniDVDs.

Are you right that miniDVDs aren't really practical for just about anything? Yes. Happy?

I just thought I would ask the question of trying the little experiment is all. You never learn anything if you aren't willing to try.

[Kdiddy]

Man I claim or say whatever the love I want...so dont you propose to tell what I CAN or CAN NOT say....I call a miniDVD simply for the fact that the prefix "mini" implies smaller or scale down version...which I have done....I have the DVD video & audio quality, "scaled down" to a ver y good version that fits on 2 CDR(W)s..and with anything that is scaled down, one expects a 'lil loss from the original product....but the key to me is retaininng the Dolby Digital 5.1 audio which SVCDs & VCDs do NOT, thus seperating from those groups...so in my mind, my player DOES play my miniDVDs..and its not the spin of "most" standalones...try about 95%-98% of the DVD market, considerably more than most....

[kinneera]

You don't have anywhere near the DVD-video quality. Not a miniDVD. The mini part of miniDVD is not intended to refer to the fact that the quality is scaled-down, it is intended to refer to the fact that the playtime is scaled down as a result of the restrictions of the media. By your definition of miniDVD, all (X)(S)VCDs are also miniDVDs, which renders the definition useless. I guess you're welcome to your attitude of "I can define everything however I want", but I would love to know then how you define the fuel efficieny of your car, how much you weigh, how you cook, etc... the list of things you can't correctly do is almost infinite if you redefine every standard or psuedo-standard for pursonal needs.

[Kdiddy]

First you SHOW me where the "mini" in miniDVD ONLY refers to the playtime...and show me a place where there is an ACCEPTED official standard....and you talk about me fitting definitions to my needs...you are becoming more assinine with each word that comes out fo your mouth...did you not ignore the "no standard" & "variable bitrate up to 9.8mpbs" to fit you SUPPOSE miniDVD definition....bottom line, if you are so convinced that cant be done, should not be done, etc...then why are you wasting you time debating with me over it??

[kinneera]

OK, I'm going to make an extension of logic argument to prove how ridiculous your "no standard" and "up to 9.8mpbs" arguments are. By your definition, I can encode hours and hours of video at 1 Kbps, tack on full DD5.1 AC3 sound, and have a miniDVD. What would I get? A pretty color-changing pixel on my screen with a great movie soundtrack. Your 2500 Kbps is not so extreme, but it is still an abuse of the intent behind creating the term miniDVD. The definition provided by this site clearly states 15 min. of video, which is ~7-8 Mbps, which is actual DVD quality video. Thus, a miniDVD, since the quality is equivalent but the amount of encoded video on one disc is miniature compared to a true DVD. If you are cutting the bitrate by 75% - which is what you are doing - you are violating the spirit and intent of defining miniDVD. You are in fact making an SVCD with a non-compliant sound format.

I entirely believe an SVCD can be made to hold a movie on two CD-Rs, and there is no reason it shouldn't be done. The same can not be said with a fair definition of miniDVD, and thus miniDVDs are most likely a bad time investment for the majority of people.

[Kdiddy]

its only a bad investment in time because 98% do not support it..NOT becuase it cant be done...let me ask you this...DID you create the term miniDVD? and did you find the accepted same standard for miniDVD on several webpages?? have you EVER created a miniDVD for standalone playback?? ...and yes using those settings you get a bad quality miniDVD as you would get a bad quality of one of your "loved" VCDs or "hated" SVCDs..so you have proved nothing to to point out that you have no experience and knowledge to speak on exactly what a miniDVD is....and I even offer a peace offering to you by redescribing it as an XminiDVD or XcDVD....but noooooo this did not work for you...the same person whom had this to say about his "loved" XVCD:

"it seems to me you can get some fairly amazing results with non-standard VCD"

"This is extremely non-standard for a VCD, obviously"

"Using my xVCD settings, from a DVD SOURCE, produces quality on par with SVCD, and I will stand by that."

So now when I make "non-standard" miniDVD and say its "on par with SVCD"...and even tried to use the XminiDVD moniker to appease you....you still want to throw it out, as being a misnomer...LOL...is your whole life this contradictory?

So considering you lack of experience on the matter, you sporatic use at defining words to fit what YOU want...makes you no way a expert on this matter..I will continue to call my product a miniDVD all I want, and again I say, you dont like it...tough sh!t, life will go on