I'm just going to cry... AIW

[mkirk]

I just dropped a LOAD of cash on a new system and still can't capture... EXPERTS HELP!!! I beg for any responses....

I have two video cards -- one is the canopus DVStorm SE:
http://www.canopus.com/us/products/dvstorm_se/pm_dvstorm_se.asp

The other is the chincy ATI All in Wonder Radeon:
http://mirror.ati.com/products/pc/aiwradeon/index.html


I can not get the TV capture or display on the ATI to work. I've installed the wrapper - installed MMC 7.7.0.1. I've tried capturing with VirutalDub - MMC's TV program... all without success. I still can not get TV to even display in a single application!

I am running Windows XP and am losing hope. Is this the problem? IS it because I have a second capture device which somehow conflicts?

[patrickm]

it's because you have to install the video drivers, then the capture drivers, and then mmc 7.7.0.1. if you install MMC before the WDM TV CAPTURE DRIVERS (as listed on support.ati.com) it won't detect a tv chip, and won't install tv correctly.

[mkirk]

I followed that exact order.... display drivers - capture drivers - MMC but still can NOT get TV to display at all. What's wrong? The display drivers work because I can use the ATI card to run a second diplay. When I run MMC -- I don't see anything however. HELP (and thanks)

[kayfam]

First uninstall everything ATI....MMC, drivers...everything! Reboot then install in the following order, capture drivers (no reboot), then the display driver (now reboot!), ATI control panel (reboot). If your going to install the DVD player install this first, reboot, then install MMC 7.7.0.1.

[mkirk]

Ok- I just followed this order:
1) Capture drivers
2) Display Driver
*REBOOT*
3) ATI Control Panel
4) MMC 7.7.0.1
*REBOOT*
(at this point I had to reinstall my nVidia display drivers for some unknown reason)

Result: "The TV player failed to initialize the video" "Check the Windows Device Manager to ensure that the correct video driver has been installed and is working properly before attempting to restart TV."

I checked the device mgr. but didn't see any conflicts at all. In my devices I have a listing for ATI under "display" - although there is nothing under "Sound, Video and Game Controlers" (should there be).

Thanks for all the help so far. I'm hoping I can troubleshoot this!

[mkirk]

I just ran a test from MMC-
It failed on the "DirectX" portion -- message was "DirectX components are not installed properly"... isn't DirectX installed in XP

[theDruid]

mkirk,

DirectX is installed on XP (version 8.1 - I think), and because of that you might not be able to download it again from M$.

Try going to the Run prompt and typing

dxdiag

for M$'s diagnostic tool for DirectX - that might give you a hint.

If you think there's a problem with it, what you could do is put your XP CD in, then go to the command prompt and type:

sfc /scannow

This scans 'important system files' (which I think should include DirectX) and checks that they are installed properly. It will replace anything it thinks has been corrupted or installed incorrectly.

'hope this works!

(If not, a very crude way of getting XP to re-install bits of itself is to find the relevant files and delete them manually - the File Protection should kick in and ask you to put your XP CD in etc.. -- Should probably just say "make sure you've backed everything up before you do this, and only do it if you're happy to re-install from scratch if it all goes horribly wrong!")

Let us know how you get on..

cheers,

mcdruid

[mrtristan]

What kind of motherboard chipset and sound card do you have? If you have a VIA chipset and/or a Soundblaster Live! audio card, then that's your problem.

XP comes with DirectX 8.1, which is required to run the latest ATI drivers and software. It will still display an error message, on some systems, like mine. Eventually, I gave up and I just use Virtualdub to capture and convert the avis with Tmpgenc.

[kayfam]

mkirk,
I think you found you own problem. Did you actually go ahead and install the nVidia display drivers? If so that's what's screwing the pooch. During the first reboot after installing the capture drivers and display driver did Window's go thru the routine of detecting new devices? If not you need to go into the device manager and use the add new device wizard to manually install the following components under sound, video and game controllers:
ATI WDM Rage Theater
ATI WDM Rage Video
ATI WDM Specialized MVD Codec
ATI WDM Specialized PCD Codec
ATI WDM TV Audio Crossbar
ATI WDM TV Tuner
Just follow the wizard and choose the option to let you choose what driver to install, and browse to the folder where the files unpacked themselves, the default being C:\ATI\Support\tv-capture-wdm-6-13-10-6125v4. I've seen this problem before not only in XP, but in previous versions of Windows as well after upgrading to another Graphics card.

[sadblack]

hello ...i have the same problem but using an ati tv wonder ve.If i use multimedia center to scan for channel it's shows only american and asian sistem..for europe not any system.....(i hope you will understand what i mean) but i use borg tvpro and it works good but also with a small problem when i try to capture it start to drop a lot of frames.Where i can find wdm drivers for this tipe of tvtuner.???????

[mkirk]

How do I add the ATI options Kayfam suggested so they appear under "Sound/Video and Game Controllers" in WinXP? I'm NOT a newbie but am new to WinXP. Virtualdub etc. doesn't recognize my capture card because for whatever reason it's not listed under these devices! My NVidia stuff is there instead! Can I have both?

mk

[mkirk]

...please help me before I give up computers and video capture dreams forever...

With my nVidia display card / ATI Radeon and Canopus Capture card - what's the correct order of install so ATI is usable through MMC and VDub.

I'm ready to rip out my own hair... will that help?

[tom28]

The specific direction on ATI release note is to install DVD Player first, that will force you to put in the Product/serial ID, then you install MMC, else it won't work.

[BJ_M]

...please help me before I give up computers and video capture dreams forever...

With my nVidia display card / ATI Radeon and Canopus Capture card - what's the correct order of install so ATI is usable through MMC and VDub.

I'm ready to rip out my own hair... will that help?

do you have BOTH a Radeon AND a Nvidia Card installed ?

[mkirk]

Hey BJM-
Yes I have both the nVidia card and ATI card installed yet it looks like the ATI card does not install the capture components properly. I uninstalled all ATI stuff then installed:
1) Capture drivers
2) Display Driver
*REBOOT*
3) ATI Control Panel
4) MMC 7.7.0.1
*REBOOT*
(at this point I had to reinstall my nVidia display drivers for some unknown reason)

When I go to the device manager I don't see the ATI card listed under sound/video and game controllers although it DOES show up under display devices and will successfully act as a second display card.

I'm not opposed to doing a WinXP re-install but want to install everything in the right order if I go that route. Any thoughts? Also, to further complicate things I have a canopus capture card (RCA/DV/SVideo In+Out) which needs to be installed somewhere in there.

[BJ_M]

well i would just delete everything .. del all reg entries and start in vga and then install only the ati card as in order mentioned above -- see if it works ... save all reg entries for the ati (only) ..

install nvida then ..

see if works (prob not)

restore ati reg entries ..

check again after reboot

if that works --- save again all for nvidia AND ati in the reg



restore reg if nessessary

i really not sure if this going to work but its a pretty sure way of fixing dififcult installs .. there might be a easier method


if it was me i would just get a dual head card (matrox or ati) + a real capture card and forget mixing ati and nvidia

excuse me if i repeated something already posted - i didnt read all the posts

[kayfam]

Hey mkirk,
I did a little research on your problem and this is what I came up with. Both your NVIDIA and AIW cards were intended to be the primary display device. What you've got going on here is that both cards are fighting for the same resources. The only thing I can think of might help is to go into the bios on boot-up and change which card is the primary display device. In this case making the AIW the primary, but there are some issues with this set-up. I took the following from ATI's web site on the limitations of a secondary display device:
"The SECONDARY display adapter does NOT support:
DirectX
Direct3D
Multimedia video functions
Here is a short list of applications you may encounter which will NOT currently function on a secondary display:
ATI Video Player (including TV Tuner support)
Web TV for Windows
DVD Playback software
MPEG Playback software
Direct3D Games
screen savers designed for a single-monitor setup
any application that runs in a "fullscreen" mode"

As you can see by changing the ATI card to primary you'll get these functions back, but at the same time you'll cripple your NVIDIA card. I know this isn't what you want to hear, but I'd start thinking of swapping out the AIW and going with a dedicated capture card. If you want to take this one step further you might consider removing all those cards and truly going with an all in one solution, the AIW Radeon 8500 DV.

[stephen2]

I had the exact smae problem launching the ATI media centre as you have when I purchased my computer. I took it back to the place that built the computer for me and they spent 6 hours on the phone with ATI's technicians trying to fix the problem. Eventually they did fix it. I suggest you take the thing to a computer technician and have them fix it.

[patrickm]

yes, ATI does need to be the primary to use all the features, i've seen that before too.

you could set up multiple hardware profiles for windows, one with each card disabled, and that might help.

[mkirk]

I had considered bringing this to a technician but wanted to give it a shot myself first...

If I have to have the ATI AIW as my primary device, does that mean it will have to run all my applications on? Here's my dilema (or another wrinkle to it)... I have a digital LCD display and a CRT monitor. The ATI card obviously does not support my digital display. SO... if I go through the trouble of making ATI my primary display... I'll have to run all my apps back on my CRT, right?

Is there anyway to JUST use the capture portion of the card on my digital display? WHY IS THIS SO HARD???

Secondly, if I choose to just give up and sell the AIW (or destroy it with a hammer) -- what can I get to capture TV... ALL I WANT IS TV CAPTURE!!!

-mk

[mrtristan]

Your AIW isn't listed in Virtualdub, because the software uses VFW drivers. AIW cards use WDM drivers, in Windows 2000 and Windows XP. You will need to install the WDM>VFW wrapper, which allows Virtualdub to "see" the device. It will then be listed as "Microsoft WDM Image Capture (Win32)."

I would strongly suggest that you do not use the ATI software, to capture video. I have been trying to get the software to work on my system for nearly two years. I tried all combinations of drivers and install orders, and did numerous clean OS installs. Several combinations worked intermittently, at best. Some systems are just not compatible with ATI's software. I'm not saying that it is impossible to run MMC on your computer, but judging by the amount of issues that you are experiencing, your chances are slim.

Maybe the next driver release will change things for me, maybe not. I've tried each release and none of them work right.

If you only want to use the capturing ability of the card, then try installing only the capture drivers. The latest set of capture drivers seem to be pretty good. Then, do a search for the VFW wrapper, on this website. Install the wrapper and you should be able to capture with Virtualdub.

[mkirk]

Thanks Tristen... I went through all this boloney when I originally got my card and installed on my Win2000 system so I remember the bit about the wrapper. I actually took the step to install it on my new XP system and still no luck.

Here's the real question:
Can I use the ATI card for CAPTURE only and not for display at all (I don't care too much about the display aspect)? So I would install the capture drivers and wrapper only (plus MMC).

I HATE how picky this damn card is -- am I better of trashing it and getting a capture only card for TV capture (like the Hauppauge)?

[theDruid]

mKirk,

what do you want your ATI capture card to do that your Canopus card won't do? I don't know anything about the Canopus, but I'm just wondering what it can't do that you think the ATI card will.


cheers,

mcdruid

[mkirk]

...I can do everything I need to with the Canopus except capture TV signal from cable. I want to use the ATI card to fill just this gap. I COULD get an RF modulator or run the cable through a VCR then connect the RCA jacks but I want to be able to have my recording application change channels to record.

Should I scrap the ATI? Can I get it to be a TV-Capture only card?

mk

[mrtristan]

I'm pretty sure you can use the card as a pure capturing device, by installing only the capture drivers. I have no way of testing it on my own PC, but I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work. The only way to be sure, is to try it out.

I would try that first, before scrapping the card. Once you can get the AIW to work, it's great. Other than the ATI software, I have nothing bad to say about their cards.

Make sure you delete the ATI folders in your C: drive, after you uninstall everything, but before you reboot. Then, install the capture drivers alone.

If all else fails, you can always borrow one of my trusty construction weathered hammers.

[patrickm]

i'm not completely certain, but i'd venture a solid "no" when it comes to capture-only. the second display doesn't support directx, directshow, etc, and this is necessary for ATI's capture.

[jackieshane]

mkirk, by the way is your Nvidia card the AGP one and the AIW the PCI card?

If u give ne this info I mght be able to help!

[jackieshane]

mkirk, Also what is the exact name of your all in wonder card?

Is it the All in wonder Radeon 32Mb Pci PAL version card?

[mkirk]

...ok pals (get it)...here's the update... the sobbing has stopped.

I SCRAPPED THE ATI AIW (well sort of). I plugged it into another PC I have for potential TV viewing. I went out to Comp USA and grabbed me a Hauppage PVR 250. After 15 minutes I was capturing a DVD quality stream with this card. WOW. The software is kind of clunky (or heavy) but the results speak for themselves.

I would HIGHLY discourage any of you from buying the ATI cards... especially if you are not using it for your primary display. I'm sure the high-end stuff is great but the drivers and support are horrible. Although the hardware is nice, the software/drivers BLOW. Without this site I would have gone mad months ago when first installing it.

Recap:
ATI AIW Radeon - bad
Hauppauge PVR 250 - very good

Thanks all for the input and help. I will no doubt have future posts with questions on my new Hauppauge. I'm very encouraged by the fact that this card can be accessed via the command line so potentially I can write batch files to cause video mayhem!

-mkirk

[GoneSouth]

mkifk...here's the directions I followed to get the ATI AIW drivers and MMC loaded correctly. Don't know if it specifically answers your question but...Found them at www.rage3d.com in the ATI AIW forum written by Shasha.

Hope it helps.

"The biggest problems I have heard about ATI drivers is that they do not always uninstall/update very well so I have my own foolproof method to make sure that everything goes as planned. The latest issue is that the WDM drivers on the ATI site are the same version number, but are in fact different (proven by the fact they are a different size and that the previous one does not work) Edit: They did in fact release "new" drivers though they are the same as a few days ago. The next issue is that the drivers need to installed in a specific order and even if you are prompted to reboot, you are not supposed to in all case (taken from the ATI install notes). I have upgraded drivers about 15-20 times with my card in the last 4 months without a hitch, so I know that it can be done. This is geared towards WinXP, but the principles are the same in all Windows OS's.

Here is my 100% foolproof, completely anal, over the top method for a completely clean ATI driver/MMC install. This the closest I can get to a clean install of ATI drivers/SW that I have figured out short of a reformat.

Items you will need before you start:

Download all of the necessary drivers from here

Download MMC 7.6noDVD.exe here if you don't already have it. You need it even if you are installing MMC7.7 (it's an ugrade patch).

Download and install Regcleaner (the best registry tool out there) from here.

System purging procedure:

Uninstall all ATI SW, drivers, hydravision, MMC, remote SW, whatever because it makes it easier to clean up your system and it won't cause problems when restarting. Don't reboot until everything is uninstalled.

Delete the following directories:

C:\ATI

C:\Program Files\ATI Multimedia

C:\Program Files\ATI Technology

C:\Program Files\Common Files\Raviscent Shared

note: you may not have all of these depending on your card type, just delete the ones you have

Clean out the C:\Windows\Temp directory. There is a chance there are some driver files in there as well.

Go to the C:Windows\system32 directory, make sure you are in detail view and right click on the header (where name, file type, date modified...is) and select more and check the box for Company. Then double click on the Company header and then delete all of the ATI files in there. Do the same for the C:Windows\system32\drivers directory.

Go to the C:\Windows\inf directory and delete any file that starts with ATI (open the inf files in notepad). Then go down to each file named oemxx.inf and open it, delete any that refer to ATI. Make sure that you delete the corresponding .pnf file as well.

Run Regcleaner. Delete any ATI entries.

Empty the Recycle Bin.

Unplug your internet connection or disable it. (Mainly for WinXP) If you don't Windows will try to download a driver for you and install it.

Reboot

Driver/SW install

All Radeon cards need the Catalyst drivers and the Control Panel. AIW cards will need the WDM drivers and the MMC SW. Make sure that you get all of them and some of them need the older versions, as they are upgrades (MMC SW).

Install the WDM drivers. Do not reboot.

Install the Display drives (Catalyst). Do not reboot.

Install the Control Panel. Reboot.

On startup Windows will install all of your HW went it boots and it will take a few minutes. Relax, you are almost done.

Install MMC-7-6-noDVD.exe. Reboot.

Install MMC-7-6 DVD.exe. Reboot

Run the MMC-7.7.0.1 (latest version) update. Reboot."

Like I said, I have done this more than a few times and it always works for me. I wouldn't have spent all of the time formatting this message if I didn't believe in it.