Max bitrate of SVCD

[JIM E]

I would like to know what is the max bitrate for SVCDs. I know the min bitrate is 300, bit everywhere I go it says the max is different. Some places say 2400, others say 2496, or 2520, 2524, 2748, etc. So what is the real max bitrate for SVCD.

[Scobo]

If you're making SVCDs to play on your standalone DVD player this will depend on which model you have.
The standard limit is around 2600 kbps, it just depends how strictly your player adheres to the standard.
I have a Logix 3000 which plays up to 4000 kbps and at a resolution of 720x576 also (which is non-standard SVCD or XSVCD).
Check for your model on the player list to the left and it should tell you the max bitrate for it.

[Truman]

svcd max. bitrate is 2788 kbps, incl. video, audio, subs, mux overhead, etc, etc.
I'm not too sure about the different specs of different multiplexers, but if video+audio+subs=2738kbps, the bitrate will be within the standard.

[Mirror_Image]

http://www.vcdhelp.com/svcd.htm

[vitualis]

As above. The max. total bitrate must be less than 2x CD.

I usually go by a max. video bitrate of approx. 2500 kbit/s (assuming one audio track at 224 kbit/s).

BTW, the minimum bitrate is not 300 kbit/s, it is zero. You will often use something higher (e.g., 300 kbit/s) as a minimum video bitrate to stop the MPEG encoder doing something stupid and inappropriately assigning too low a bitrate for a particular frame.

Regards.

[sdispun]

I'm with Scobo, tested SVCD compliant @ 2.6Mb/s just about as good as it gets, If I were to select MPEG-2 @ 2.61 (just 1 over), all I've got was Cr*p on screen.

[vitualis]

That doesn't mean a whole lot as you are probably using a DVD player that has a DVD drive. A single spin DVD drive should physically be able to read a CD at approx. 3x assuming it can read CD-R/W at all. Some drives spin up for CDs so the read rate is actually quite a bit higher. Some drives have difficulties reading CD-R/W so it may actually be quite a bit lower.

The limitation is set by the SVCD standard which was designed around a 2x CD drive. Thus, the max. bitrate must be less than 2x (i.e., 150 sectors a second). What your DVD player can handle will depend on your hardware.

Regards.

[sdispun]

was that just a theory or test has been performed? bbMPEG error out any input numbers that greater than 2600k, plus I've tried it on 4 boxes, 2 named brand, and 2 no named, out came the same results.. anything over 2.6 is a no go.

But then again, all boxes are about 6 months or older, yours may be newer, please test and lets us know again if you can.

BTW, all hardwares within DVD player depends on software in the shipset, and if software limit to 2.6Mk, I would say, doesn't matter how fast DVD drive spins, software will always perform as it's been asked to.

[adam]

There are tons of dvd players that can read much higher than what the SVCD max limit is. Some dvd players can read as high as 7 or 8mbits, just read the dvd player compatibility list.

[sdispun]

Yes I saw the list, that's why I tested it, so far, I haven't got the fact to back it up. If your box can play at 3x or over, please.. please.. what's the name of the player, I need one real bad for my home Movie -> SVCD

Reason I asked because, I can never get SVCD to be as good as I expected, so.. VCD @ high bitrate that what I'm stuck with.

BTW, we're talking about SVCD compliant, NOT XVCD or XSVCD.

[adam]

Err, actually we are talking about XSVCDS because if your bitrate goes beyond the limitations set by the SVCD standard then it is no longer a SVCD.

Well my Apex AD600a for one can play XSVCDS well over the 2778kbit max of the SVCD standard. Most Apex's can but I always adhere to the specs for future compatibility when I upgrade my dvd player.

[sdispun]

Actually we're talking about "what is the max bitrate for SVCDs" In any case, thank you so much for making this subject clear.

[adam]

The max bitrate for SVCDS has already been established. You are the one who brought up XSVCDS and I simply answered your question.

Do you somehow find my post offensive? It wasn't intended to be.

[sdispun]

Took me awhile whether should I, or should I not reply this..
well, since it's going to be my last post, and to some extend I've been challenged..

"The max bitrate for SVCDS has already been established"
Truman the Moderator said "2788 kbps"
vitualis the Moderator said "approx. 2500 kbit"
and
I said "tested SVCD compliant @ 2.6Mb/s"
then
you said "There are tons of dvd players that can read much higher than what the SVCD max limit is"
All I just wanna do was lay down the fact.

"You are the one who brought up XSVCDS"
At any point of time where did I say above word beside "SVCD compliant" JIM E asked about SVCD, Scobo answer about SVCD, remember you said I the past? "We're here to help newbie, not to confuse them" don't know about you and your Moderator, but I answer about SVCD.

I don't take "Yes" until I get the proof and know the fact, and I don't say things unless I do know.
Best regards,

[Truman]

http://forum.vcdhelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=101486

As vitualis said, "The max. total bitrate must be less than 2x CD".
2x CD speed is 150 sectors / second. SVCD is burnt in MODE2, i.e. 2324 bytes / sector.
So 2x CD speed is 150*2324*8=2788800 bits /second.
If you multiplex the MPEG with bbMPEG to get the absolute compliance, save some space for Mux overhead ( sequence header aligning and svcd scan offset).
Also note, that MPEG encoders allocate the bitrate more or less accurate.
Sometimes you will recognize a peak bitrate, that is much higher than the wanted max rate. So the SVCD becomes a XSVCD.
So far the theory....

[adam]

sdispun:

The max total bitrate (audio + video + overhead) of 2788 was established by Truman. If you didn't believe him a simple web search could have verified this. You cannot verify the limitations of the SVCD standard through practical testing because not all dvd players are built to spec. At some point your going to have to just take the word of someone who knows more than you. If you are such a skeptic than I suggest you purchase the SVCD IEC specs.

Vitualis noted that a reasonable max bitrate for video was 2500kbits assuming an audio bitrate of 224kbits. A simple math equation verifies this, 2500 + 224<2778.

Yes I said many dvd players can play higher bitrates than what the svcd standard allows, that doesnt change the standard and it doesnt change the fact that you changed the subject to XSVCDS.

Yes you did bring up XSVCD you just didn't realize it, which was all I was saying. It seems childish for me to have to explain myself for making such a trivial comment.

"If your box can play at 3x or over, please.. please.. what's the name of the player"

If the disk is playing over 2x than it is no longer a SVCD it is an XSVCD.

"BTW, we're talking about SVCD compliant, NOT XVCD or XSVCD"

That is an oxymoron. It cannot be SVCD compliant and play at bitrates equivalent to what can be read on a 3x drive.

Sorry for pointing out your mistake before answering your question, I didn't realize it was going to offend you. But if this site is about helping people than wouldn't you want to be corrected when you made a mistake? Maybe I just caught you on a bad day.

[sdispun]

Wow!!
Just drop by for your last word, because I know you will..

"So far the theory..." truman said,
Theory means "Abstract reasoning; speculation"
And I've never once said it's wrong.

"At some point your going to have to just take the word of someone who knows more than you"
And I've never once said I know more than you guys, and I'm right you guys wrong.

"oxymoron" That a pretty strong choice of word for site's admin to member. Being work as Sr. programmer/Analyst for more than 15 years of writing library functions for your guys to enjoy writing highend software without have to worry about low level commands, ..proud to say, you're the first to use this word on me.

So, "explain myself for making such a trivial comment" I think you should, after all we're in "Newbie Conversion" not advance as you might thought.

"bad day" I can guarantee.. I'm not having one, even after read your post Adam

Well.. this is not my last word or getting back I can assure you, just wanna point out to the readers that when I'm wrong I admit I'm wrong, but when I'm not, and someone said I'm wrong, I think I'm entitle to.

Wish you and the site all the best,
You can block my account now.

[adam]

This is silly and I'm not going to continue this discussion, but I really do think that you have completely misunderstood everything I have posted and for some bizarre reason taken offense to it.

I think there is an obvious language barrier here. Oxymoron is not a strong or offensive word at all and it doesnt even imply anything about you personally. An oxymoron is simply something that is contradictory. You asked for a player that plays compliant SVCDS encoded at a non-compliant bitrate. This is contradictory and thus an oxymoron.

Have a nice day.

[vitualis]

@ sdispun,

Before you carry on this discussion, I strongly suggest you re-read the entire thread.

The max. bitrate for SVCD (compliant) was established long ago (total combined must be < 2 spin CD) but perhaps what is not clear to you is that this isn't what most people care about. Rather, it is the practical max. video bitrate (to which I maintain a safe bitrate is about 2500 kbit/s).

I corrected you way up this thread because you weren't clear on what you wrote by 2.6 Mbit/s. Is that the combined bitrate or video bitrate? If it is video only, then assuming a standard audio bitrate of 224 kbit/s, the combined bitrate will be larger than the max. allowed for in the standard.

Again, the max. bitrate for SVCD is clear and doesn't have to be tested. It is an arbitrary number set down but the people that made the standard. If you want to look it up, you can purchase the SVCD IEC specs.

As for your speculation that SVCD playback is limited by software to 2x in DVD players, this is not shown by the evidence. Plenty of people have made SVCDs with higher bitrates (and hence XSVCD) that play in all sorts of players. For the vast majority of DVD players, the limiting factor appears to the be max. speed the drive mechanism can read CD-R/W media (which may be less than or more than 2 spin CD).

Also, it may not have been clear to you, but when anyone mentions making SVCDs with a bitrate greater than 2x CD (i.e., combined bitrate > 2788 kbit/s), it is implicit that they mean non-standard SVCD = XSVCD.

It it curious that you haven't been able to create any working XSVCDs with bitrates over the standard, and that suggests to me that there is something in the process you are using rather than anything else. As adam (and plenty of other people have discovered -- search for "XSVCD") most SVCD capable DVD players can play at bitrates greater than the SVCd standard.

BTW (personal gripe), "theory" does not mean "abstraction reasoning or speculation". Obviously you are not from a scientific background. A "theory" is a principle that has been (and can be) tested and agrees with the evidence.

Also, as adam has stated, an "oxymoron" is a statement that is self-contradictory (e.g., a "wealthy beggar" or "an honest politician"). I'm not entirely sure what you thought it meant.

Regards.

[fantomlord]

Being work as Sr. programmer/Analyst for more than 15 years of writing library functions for your guys to enjoy writing highend software without have to worry about low level commands

boy...it must be a terrible burden to know so damn much, and still need to ask such basic questions....

[Nelson37]

Just to steer this in another direction, I believe the language concerning max bitrate in the SVCD spec is somewhat ambigous, as it refers to "average bitrate not to exceed". When we speak of average in this context, it is necessary to specify a time parameter; where none has been specified then one could assume the time to be the length of the entire clip. It is possible to have an Average of 2500 with a few seconds or more at, say, 6000 for instance. (I had one of those picky English teachers in high school)

I realize this may not be practical, but while I may not have read the "real" IEEE white paper, the lengthy specs I did read did not mention the mechanical drive speed limitations specifically. They may have been designed with 2x in mind, but I think they leave room for the ambiguity above.

Having said all that, I believe that using max settings of 3000 have been causing intermittent stutter on my Apex DVD player and am experimenting with max rates reduced to 2600-2800.

[NJ]

There are tons of dvd players that can read much higher than what the SVCD max limit is. Some dvd players can read as high as 7 or 8mbits, just read the dvd player compatibility list.

If anyone who mentioned about bits over the limit, this is the one. They are talking about SVCD Adam.

[adam]

Give it a rest sdispun you are really being childish now.

A user who registered today who only has 1 post and speaks in the same broken English as you decides to speak out in your favor? You know the Administrator of this board can see the ip address of all users and can easily verify that sdispun=NJ. Why are you making such a big deal about this?

[NJ]

Nop Adam, I work with him in the same office, and just can't help it.

[adam]

Nelson, I've read the official IEC SVCD specs and they are actually quite clear on this matter. It doesnt' mention anything about the avg, it basically states everything that Truman and Vitualis have already stated, that the max must not exceed the limitations of a 2x drive which means a max of 2778kbits. As was stated earlier this is a completely arbitrary number and doesnt really mean much to you if you are playing your SVCDS on a dvd player since most are quite leniant about this. However, remember that the specs were written with standalone SVCD players in mind, not SVCD compatible dvd players. Much like standalone vcd players, these SVCD players are much stricter about compliance and part of this is probably because they actually do use 1x and 2x speed drives for vcds and svcds respectively, whereas dvd players often have drives that can read cdr/w much faster than this.

[turbod]

I'm a newbie Adam and I'm with NJ on this . Looks like you brought up the XSVCD issue first, while everyone else was talking about SVCD max bitrates. No biggie... Let's just hope "JIM E" got the answer he needed. That's the bottom line...

[Baldrick]

I think we now what the max svcd bitrate is now. Discuss private if you have problem with anyone.

Closed.