Best Codec to use for storing old material ?

[swampfreak2000]

I have a lot of analog vhs material and some dv stuff that I want to
convert and store on cd rom....Well...I know there is a lot of
codecs such as Divx and Mpeg..but I want to make sure that
the quality is the highest possibly and that the codec I use can be played in the future (have support) with all mediaplayers....on PC computers..

any serious suggestions ?

[KingJohn]

Store ? or make a VCD ?
Store, immediately makes me think you don't want to play them on anything except the PC, then it makes me think you want them as small as possible but at high quality.

But the "High quality" bugs me, because you say your source is from VHS tapes and after capture, the quality is not going to be that high .

You could convert them using a lossless codec, but I don't see anything wrong with the DivX codec either. You need to try a few conversions yourself, and experiment with different bitrates to see what you can get away with.

However, converting them all to VCD, should be future proof, well at leased you could convert them all to DVD when there is a standard emerged. I also have a lot of VHS tapes, but have put off converting them until everyone settles down to a DVD standard

It would probably best if you did not convert anything, just store your capture's as they are !! on good quality disks.

[swampfreak2000]

Thanks for your advice

I have another question, you said that
the material will not be so good from VHS tapes
when capturing ? How much bad ? I am planning
to buy a analog-in capture card for this..but
I dont have experience of the result quality...
I also like divx...but which version of divx (there
are a few to choose from) is the choice for
future proff storing ? Will microsoft support all
versions ?

Thanks for taking the time

[Akai Rounin]

Keeping it LIVE....

swampfreak2000: What exactly do you mean by "convert"? Are you saying that all your material is still on VHS or DV and hasn't been captured to your PC yet? ...OR have you already captured the video using a lossless codec such as HUFFYUV and want to know which format and/or codec to use for archiving?

I guess this depends upon whether you intend to preserve the video in its original form or if you want to be able to edit it later. If there aren't any scenes to remove or cut down, if you don't need to rearrange scenes, if you just want whatever events you have recorded to remain as is, then you can go straight to whatever final compressed video format you want. But if if you expect to add graphics, titles, music, wipes, dissolves and more at some time in the future, then it would likely be best to preserve the video as some form of AVI, as more (free, cheap...) editing tools are available for that format. Your options are more limited with MPEG-2 tools, as they often are quite a bit more expensive.

Unta Glebin Gloutin Globin,

Akai Rounin, The Cyber Sage

[Big_Jit]

I would suggest that after capture you keep the original capture avi to a disc or a number of discs and then convert to mpeg. From what I've seen Mpeg looks to be the compression type of choice if you wanna be able to play the videos on multiple devices or machines. Given the filesize wouldn't be as small as it would be if you encoded to Divx or wmv or something but the quality would be more like how you would see it on a TV if you used MPEG-1 or 2 I think...

[swampfreak2000]

HI again guys...

Im sorry for being a bit fuzzy....
What I mean with "convert" is that
when I have captured the vid to my HD in RAW
form (AVI), which codec should I use after that to store the
vid on cd´s...?

I agree that AVI seems to be a good format to go for if
I want to do later additions...

So, I have looked around abit and Divx looks to be
the best afterall (due to small filesize..) but maybe
there is other and better codecs....

Thanks for helping me guys!

[KingJohn]

Thanks for your advice

I have another question, you said that
the material will not be so good from VHS tapes
when capturing ? How much bad ? I am planning
to buy a analog-in capture card for this..but
I dont have experience of the result quality...
I also like divx...but which version of divx (there
are a few to choose from) is the choice for
future proff storing ? Will microsoft support all
versions ?

Thanks for taking the time

Well I'm being picky, they are not as good as DVD's and DVD recordings are worse, DVD rips are very good. Then there is the capture card which will not capture without some degrading of the signal.

Having said all that I think most people are happy with the quality, even if its not "high quality"

A for which codec, The most popular of the compression codec's is DivX 3.11 Alpha

With this codec you can choose from DivX MPEG-4 (Low-Motion) and DivX MPEG-4 (Fast-Motion)

When you change the settings, you can lower the batrate down to produce small file sizes, experiment with this to produce a small file size and good quality.

You will also need to use a audio codec, sometimes the audio can be as big as the video, DivX 3.11 Alpha comes with a very good "DivX Audio" is a Fraunhofer IIS MPEG Layer-3 Codec (Professional) so its good

This codec has been around for a long time, and a long time to come.

There has been other MPEG-4 codec's and the release of DivX 5 (Now 5.02) each one of these codec's are used sometimes for a particular type of movie.

Animation might be done with one codec, while fast moving scenes done with another, while some are simply used to get the file size down.

You need to test them all on a simple test file, when you happy then use the codec without worrying if it will work in the future, I'm sure it will (PC) but if you want to play the movie on some other device like a DVD player, then you have to use MPEG-1 fully compliant to make sure it has the most chance of lasting.

If we do get something new in the future, there is going to be a time where you will be able to transfer it, before loosing old technologies.

[vhelp]

swamp,

you have no option (AFAIK)!!
Best to just capture to AVI (NOT divX or MPEG1/2) and figure out a
way (your next step) to archive them to some form of media ie, CDR.

Why I say (NOT divX or MPEG) ??
Because then, you are compressing them, hence, loosing detail, ie
color, and not to mention, inserting artificts into the (divX or MPEG)
And, not to mention, that your source is VHS. There's not much hope
if getting them to look close to DVD quality for sure! So, don't
kill yourelf over trying so hard in this project. It's just not
worth the overkill.

If your VHS materials are worth keeping, ie, weddings, parties...,
then just capture them to AVI, and put them onto CDR for later encoding
when you've perfected your skills, OR, when the next best thing comes
out, like a DVD-recorder that proves to be the best, according to your
standards of quality.

If there just recorded tv shows from the 80's, well, IMO, they're not
that worth the trouble, when you could just walk into a Video Store
that specialies in old tv series, in addition to their current movies,
etc. I mean, you could be potentially waisting CDRs, and based on
your skills for capturing (which you haven't even learned, let alone,
mastered) and once you've settled on a level that you feel you've
perfected video encoding, ...by THAT time, all those AVI's (assuming
you went to AVI capture route) will have probably of ben captured
pretty poorely to begin with, and will not satisfy you by the time
you are ready. And, if you went the divX/MPEG route, that's even
worse..., as this takes even MORE time to master. Even at the level
I'm at, I would NOT go the route of divX or MPEG and then to CDR for
archieval.
...Well, it made plenty sense to me!

You've got a long way to go. And, it's so not going to happen over night
or in an evening/afternoon's reading of this FORUM's posts.
You've got things to learn, such as:
* capturing devices, ie analog captures ie, ATW/WTVGO, or DV
* capturing, ...headackes
* codecs, ...more hadackes
* filters, ...more hadackes
* encoding, ...much much more hadackes
* burning, ...not so bad.

RECOMMENDATIONS ARE: (again, you're talking about VHS, and ASSuming you
recorded TV programs to, and hopefully in SP mode, and TV source was good
quality, and not antenna [which you didn't say])
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Don't go divX/MPEG!!
* Best be IS TO capture to AVI.
* Don't use PIC video's MJPEG codec for captuing!! (it's lossy! ...period!)
* DO USE the HUFFY codec for your AVI captures
* Don't go spending hundreds on a DV cam for this. People may persuay
you into this route. . .
...but, even if you did, there is some quality loss again, ie, color.
Color gets compressed from the DV conversoin (it strips out color that
the human eye cannot detect or distinguish on a TV, in-nutshell)
* again, to minimize as much quality loss, go the AVI route, and NOT the
divX route, which people will say is another form of AVI. Don't get confused
with those who say that divX is a great source, quality'wise. As they may
have ben talking about those DVD rips to divX conversion, NOT VHS to divX!!
* don't bother playing video on your pc. It's not that much fun. At least
sooner or later, you'll grow out of it, and feel its not so much fun, AND
realise that it's takes up uddles of space. not to mention your sources
quality level, VHS. Not going to be worth viewing for long, on your pc
monitor. But, if you still want to view on your pc monitor. . .
* and remember, as for VHS, the saying goes, "GIGO", "Garbage in, Garbage out!"
...that's refering to the level of quality in your source, ie, VHS.
* get an inexpensive DVD player that will play anything, ie the
APEX AD-1500 is a good start, but their are many others.
* lots and lots of reading.

Again, steps are:
* captured card
* capture in AVI format (in 600K increments, to fit on CDRs)
* huffy codec
* burn those 600k AVIs to CDR disks

-vhelp

[Akai Rounin]

Codec Frenzy...

vhelp: Geez, I thought ~*I*~ made long, detailed posts! Ha! Excellent points with great advice for any newbie. I must admit though, I rather disagree with you concerning DivX. Before I was able to purchase the import DVD set of the Berserk anime, I rented videotapes of the series from a Japanese video store. I captured from those crappy, old videotapes using the DivX 4.12 codec (1600 kbits/sec) and MP3 audio (320 kbits/sec, 44100 Hz, stereo). The result was indistinguishable from the original video as displayed on the computer monitor. No artifacts, no washed-out color, no problem. Later, following the tutorials here at VCDHelp, I converted those captures to VCD, two episodes per disc (four with XVCD settings) with good results.

swampfreak2000: It's perfectly OK to capture from crappy, old videotape using the DivX codec ~*IF*~ you have a very powerful, fast PC with TONS of RAM and hard drive space. The biggest potential problem I have noted in doing this is that if there are dropped frames, you will definitely have out of sync audio. You see DivX has one major disadvantage (as compared to MPEG, for instance) in that it requires tremendous amounts of processor power to encode or decode its compression scheme. If you were to also choose a compressed audio format for capture (say, MP3) as well as DivX for video, then that combination could choke your PC, resulting in dropped frames.

In the end, assuming you have plenty of hard drive space (that's 40 GB free or more), then it is certainly advisable to use uncompressed, lossless video and audio codecs for all capture tasks. The resulting files will be GIGANTIC, no doubt. Don't be surprised to see numbers as much as 50-100 MB per minute, or higher. The problem is, this technique is pure overkill for a consumer VHS source. There is no need to use 5000-9000 kilobits per second video to capture and preserve such a source in a digital medium. As noted above, a lossless codec is fine for capturing, excellent for editing, not so good for archiving unless you have access to a DVD burner (or don't mind losing the hard drive space permanently). Otherwise you will become a professional disc juggler when it comes to saving the data for future use. [Tape drive for video backup? HA!]

As suggested, try some tests once you begin capturing from different video sources to guage quality from one format to the next. Try a scene of an exact known length, perhaps 3-5 minutes of footage, that covers different scenes ranging from still to high action. The lobby scene from THe MaTRiX is a favorite of many, from the turning of the revolving door to the closing of the elevator. You might also try UNBREAKABLE, the scene that starts with the crowded line outside the stadium and ends at the bottom of the stairs in the subway.

When capturing from videotape, 1600 kilobits/second (constant bitrate) should be fine with the DivX codec. There is probably no need to use stereo audio with your personal recordings of family events, mono should be fine and will save bandwidth. I like 224 kilobits/sec 44.1 KHz stereo and 112 kilobits/sec 44.1 KHz mono, though you can make the determination based upon your own needs.

I could add some more, but I think I'll leave some rope hanging about so others can string me up. Further debate on this would be fun and hopefully informative as well...

Unta Glebin Gloutin Globin,

Akai Rounin, The Cyber Sage

[KingJohn]

swamp,

you have no option (AFAIK)!!
Best to just capture to AVI (NOT divX or MPEG1/2) and figure out a
way (your next step) to archive them to some form of media ie, CDR.

Why I say (NOT divX or MPEG) ??
Because then, you are compressing them, hence, loosing detail, ie
color, and not to mention, inserting artificts into the (divX or MPEG)
And, not to mention, that your source is VHS. There's not much hope
if getting them to look close to DVD quality for sure! So, don't
kill yourelf over trying so hard in this project. It's just not
worth the overkill.

cut the waffle---------------

* Don't go divX/MPEG!!

Its obvious you have had bad results with DivX, probably the old saying crap in crap out
If the size is important, then compression is needed and DivX 3.11 Alpha produce stunning results, as do other DivX codecs

As with Jpeg files, quite a lot can be removed from the picture with out any "Noticeable" changes.

DVD rips on the Internet are ALL DivX files and are ALL very good quality, converted to mpeg 1 and placed on a VCD and they look almost as good as a DVD.

VHS to DivX is not going to be very high quality, but there again VHS is not high quality to start with.

If I was you I would learn to use the codec's, they do play a big roll in Video storing. Lossless codec's are just fine, but up to 3 times the size, and indistinguishable from expertly made DivX files.

[swampfreak2000]

Well, I must say that I am impressed by you guys!

You are very helpful and I have read your words very
carefully...

I am still a bit confused but with your help, I will
think it over and try several options...

Its nice to see so many people want to help others

My big thankx to you all!