Pioneer A04 - My first legal shot across their bow

[RevSchafer]

What follows is the text of the letter I just sent to Pioneer Electronics concerning their highly misleading marketing materials.

If anyone is interested in joining a class-action suit, please respond here and let me know.
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I am writing to inform you of a complaint of 'False Advertising' as specified by the laws in the state of Indiana. Please forward this information to your legal department.

I recently purchased the OEM version of the DVR-A04 drive under the mistaken impression that because your pre-sales marketing materials specified it was a 2X DVD-R drive, I would actually be able to burn DVD-Rs at 2X speed.

Only after extensive investigation was I finally able to determine that the drive is only capable of burning at 2X speeds if I use Pioneer approved (and thus much more expensive) media. I must essentially pay a "Pioneer Tax" when purchasing "Pioneer Approved" media if I wish to burn discs at 2X speed, and since you are not the U.S. Congress, you are not empowered to charge me a tax of this type.

Using generic media which is less than 1/5 the price and what most normal users would expect to be able to use in a burner limits me to burning a DVD at the speed of 1X. This directly conflicts your product claims of being a 2X burner. Had you mentioned in any of the publicly available sale materials that the drive will only burn 2X when using more expensive media, I would have continued shopping until I found a true 2X burner.

While I appreciate your efforts to save me the cost of occassionally burning a 'coaster' or two, when your DVD's cost 5.39X as much as generics (based on a purchase of 4 Pioneer discs for $29.99 at CompUSA vs a 25 pack of generic DVD-Rs that I purchased for $39.99), I can afford to burn 4 'coasters' for every good disc that I burn and still be money ahead in the long run.

This is equivalent to Honda advertising a car that gets 100 miles per gallon, only to find out after purchasing the car that you are now required to buy Honda approved gasoline that sells for $7.98 per gallon (the ratio between your media and generic media multiplied by the current cost of premium unleaded), otherwise you'll get the same mileage as any other car on the road.

Either claim is misleading and can thus be considered as 'False Advertising'. I am forwarding a copy of this information to the State Attorney General's office and ask that they investigate the misrepresentation and possibly pursue a class-action lawsuit similar to the one in effect vs. Hewlett-Packard at this time.

I have electronically archived all of the pertinent marketing materials to be found at your site for this DVD-R/RW drive and will be sharing them with the authorities involved.

It is my understanding that the speed restriction is controlled through the firmware of the drive and there is 'black market firmware' available that removes this speed restriction. I will gladly halt all legal actions and claims in exchange for a firmware update that will remove the 1X/2X speed restriction in the DVR-A04 drive and it's OEM counterpart. This firmware update must be made publicly available and should be included in all future shipping product.

[Kusanagi]

Bleh, your case is all moot. Pioneer covered this way before the release of the A04. See http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/Pioneer/Files/DVDR2Xmedia_statement.pdf

And this was also tried before (going after Pioneer) and was unsuccessful (thankfully): http://www.forumexperts.com/videoguys/bforum.mv?forum=5&module=view&viewid=119&action=...mode=com&row=1

I agree with the others, stop being cheap and buy some good dvd-r media...don't ruin a good thing for the rest of us.


Kusanagi

[RevSchafer]

Bleh, your case is all moot. Pioneer covered this way before the release of the A04. See http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/Pioneer/Files/DVDR2Xmedia_statement.pdf

True, but this is not part of their marketing materials and is not disclosed until after you go looking for it.

I agree with the others, stop being cheap and buy some good dvd-r media...don't ruin a good thing for the rest of us.

I'm not trying to ruin a good thing for anyone, I just want to be able to burn *my* choice of media in my drive at the speeds promised by the manufacturer. I've used generic CD-R media for years with no problems and I don't see any reason to start spending over 5x as much to buy "Pioneer Approved" media to get my drive to work as advertised.

Thanks for your feedback, though.

[Kusanagi]

Just get Apple DVD-R media then. It's certified at 2X (as they are essentially Pioneer DVD-R branded media) and offers the best performance for the $$. It's what I use.


Kusanagi

[Mirror_Image]

Is there actually a law firm engaged to handle the preparatory work for this "class action"? It wouldn't think so, because if there were retained counsel, they would be out there drumming up plaintiffs - the larger the pool, the larger the settlement, and thus the larger their fee. In other words, the law firm will do virtually all of the work; that is why you hire them.

My professional experience has been that a plaintiff retains representation, either after payment of a retainer or upon the firm agreeing to represent the plaintiff on a contingency basis after determining that it is worth the risk to do so, because the possible payoff makes it a good gamble.

The firm then attempts to solicit additional plaintiffs by advertising in print publications that reach their target demographic, as well as using other methods (direct mail, radio advertising) that are likely to be fruitful. The firms do this, because they are engaged in serious business, not just blowing off steam or looking for "attaboys".

In all of these attempts to add plaintiffs, I doubt that any firm ever posts on a message board asking for reply posts or PM messages. In the unlikely event that they did place a post on an internet message board, they would list their firm's title, and postal mail and telephone contact information.

[big_hed]

I'm still waiting for the hacked bios that will allow burning of any media at 2x. I'll take the chance of a few coasters.

[SLK001]

The DVR-A04 won't do 2X on non-Pioneer approved media? Baloney! It's your media. If it won't record at 2X (ie, less than version 2.0), then neither will the Pioneer. I buy the cheap CD-RECORDABLE DVD-R (V 2.0) at about $1.99 each, and they burn at 2x no problemo - and I'm sure that they are not Pioneer "approved". Again, don't blame the drive - blame your cheap media. The media has encoded in it it's MAXIMUM RECORDABLE BITRATE that is readable by the drive (I've seen it a couple of times). If it is not greater than 22.1Mbps, then the recorder will drop to 1X automatically.

[RAAGAAman]

SLK001 Wrote: The media has encoded in it it's MAXIMUM RECORDABLE BITRATE that is readable by the drive (I've seen it a couple of times). If it is not greater than 22.1Mbps, then the recorder will drop to 1X automatically.

SLK001 - It has nothing to do with the maximum bitrate. The Pioneer drive reads the Disk Mfg field on the media. If the MFG is approved media the drive will write at 2X. I would be willing to bet your cheap CDrecordable media has an approved Vendor in the Mfg field and that is why it writes at 2X. What is a Approved vendor? A vendor that has been verified to meet the DVD-R standard by the DVD Forum and Pioneer has tuned their drive to write at 2X with this Media.
RevSchafer,
As far as this Lawsuit is concerned it is baloney. I know from experience that cheap DVD-Rs have very poor reading even when they are written at 1X but you want it to be 2X. So I guess if the odometer in your car says you can do 120MPH you should do that all the time even on a Bumpy road with potholes. The problem is that if Pioneer let everyone Burn thier DVD-Rs at 2X they would get complaints about readability of the finished disks which would far worse than a frivolous lawsuit.

RG

[RevSchafer]

So I guess if the odometer in your car says you can do 120MPH you should do that all the time even on a Bumpy road with potholes.

No, but if the manufacturer tells me in it's advertising materials that the car will safely drive at 120 MPH on bumpy roads with pothols and in reality it won't, then it's false advertising.

If you notice in all car commercials where they are driving with reckless abandonment, they tell you that this a professional driver on a closed course and that you really shouldn't do this in real life. That's called a disclaimer, and that's what protects them from being accused of misleading the public.

All I'm saying is that if Pioneer had ADVERTISED the drive as being 2X compatible only with media that I have to pay the "Pioneer Tax" on, I would have considered a different drive. Instead, their advertising states that the drive is 2X and there is no notice of having to buy more expensive media in order to get that kind of speed. A simple little asterisk next to the 2X with a disclaimer that read "* Only 2X compatible with approved media" would have prevented all this confusion.

If, as an earlier poster mentioned, I can get $1.99 DVD-Rs that work at 2X, I'll be happy, but according to the Pioneer document that explains this issue, there are only a very few approved media vendors, and they are all much more expensive than $1.99 each. I checked into DVD-R pricing before I bought the drive because I didn't want to have to spend $8 or more per disc.

I admit that I didn't perhaps do enough research into the A04 before purchasing, at least I didn't check into the issues concerning speed. I did read many reviews and comments on various websites, all of which pointed out the A03 and A04 as an excellent drives.

It was only after I started burning discs that I noticed that I could only burn 2X on the expensive discs and wondered what I was doing wrong. Then, when I found out that I wasn't doing anything wrong, but Pioneer has intentionally kept me from using the cheaper media that I realized that I had been 'misled' and it was then that I began discussions with a friend who is a lawyer. He's not real technical and wasn't sure if this would be a big deal or if there would be enough interest in a lawsuit, which is why I posted asking for feedback.

If I'm the only person in the whole world who feels that they weren't misled then I guess there is no point in filing a lawsuit, but I am asking the Indiana Attorney's General to check into the claims of false advertising, as I do believe that Pioneer is wrong in that respect.

[RevSchafer]

I buy the cheap CD-RECORDABLE DVD-R (V 2.0) at about $1.99 each, and they burn at 2x no problemo - and I'm sure that they are not Pioneer "approved".

Please let me know what brand you are using and where you were able to find them for $1.99 each. If I have to pay an extra $0.59 per disc for 2X speed, I don't mind, but if I have to pay an extra $6.10 per disc, I will not be happy.

Thanks,
RevSchafer

[mazinz]

dude,
you might be just using cheap dvd-r medai, i own the pioneer dvr-104 and the only 2 tpyes of dvds that so far burned at 2x were pioneer and tdk's. Otherm edia i have used was of cheaper quality and was GLITCH RIDDEN, if you want to use good media you have to shell out the price, Also pioneer and tdk are made to be burned at 2x speed most of this 1.50 garbage is not made to do so and causes mad glitches when played in most players. So their not really false advertising at all. you have to keep in mind that even though dvd-r has been around since 1997, it is just first now finally hitting consumer level. Cds were the same way to. their was no 8x or 12x when they first came out and back then you couldnt burn most media past 2x. if you wait, in time the burners and media will all conform to this and much higher speeds. its just like me, i could not wait any longer so i bought a burner now--a few months from now you will see everything increase in speed.

[leebo]

I have to agree with RevSchafer. It's not asking too much for a warning b4 you purchase the drive. We're not children. We don't need Pioneer holding our little hands, "Protecting" us from coasters.

A little knowledge would be nice though.

I understand the issue about using high quality media for video DVD's. But near as I can tell, disc's that don't play on a set top usualy wil play on a computer DVD drive. My point is that for backing up your computer, cheap media can be useful.

Now, say Pioneer secretly tells disc manufacturers, "we wont allow our drive to write to your discs at 2X unless you pay us".

Mis-leading the public has become an epidemic. Between the advertising industry and the lawyers, we don't have much of a chance anymore.

Sure, the car commercials have a disclaimer at the bottom of the screen, And you're free to read it, too, as long as you have a magnifying glass and have taken a speed reading class!

[Mirror_Image]

I realized that I had been 'misled' and it was then that I began discussions with a friend who is a lawyer. He's not real technical and wasn't sure if this would be a big deal or if there would be enough interest in a lawsuit, which is why I posted asking for feedback.

Fine, but unless you find this rewarding, you'd be better off if you went directly to a law firm that deals in the area of Trade Regulation and consult them. If you feel that you have a medical problem, do you consult people who just have bodies similar to yours, or do you rely on medical professionals?

It just seems that you just don't really want to commit to taking any definite action, especially if it requires that you have to pull a penny from your pocket. Get out the phone book and go talk to an attorney - one that specializes in this area. Don't "ask a buddy" just because it's free to do so.

Move on it, or drop it; twiddling your thumbs and spewing hot air accomplishes nothing. If you think you have a case, go for it. If not, forget about it.

[Kusanagi]

My point is that for backing up your computer, cheap media can be useful.

I still wouldn't trust my important data on cheap DVD-R...I learned that the hard way awhile back with cheap CD-RW media...


Kusanagi

[SLK001]

I am using CD-RECORDABLE media from

http://www.cd-recordable.com

I bought the 30 SS DVD-R plus 2 DS DVD-R FREE package for $59.70. The media burns happily at 2X and plays all the way through on my DV-343 home player. The organic coating is very even (I inspected them all) and it even looks good. I bought some "generic" Princos (@ $1.75 ea), and these pieces of shit wouldn't even burn at 1X, let alone 2X. I certainly can't blame my drive for that.

[alkieman]

I've bought some generic unbranded media that burned fine at 2x and some unbranded that wouldn't but I wouldn't think of taking Pioneer to court over the issue. I just stick with the unbranded ones that work at the higher speeds.

Maybe it's the media companies you should think of chasing, they should label the discs as certified at 2x if they have been certified so we would all know without having to buy a few of each brand we are unfamiliar with.

I have a JVC S-VHS VCR which states it can record in almost SVHS-ET mode with standard VHS tapes. Quality is great with good quality tapes but with very cheap poor tapes the quality in SVHS-ET mode is crap, I would not think of taking JVC to court though.

It's the media that is the problem not the drive I would think.

If you buy a CD writer than can write at 24 speed would you take the drive manufacturer to court because you bought cheap unbranded media that can only burn properly at 8 speed?.

[leebo]

Also note that just because the recording software reports it's recording at 2X, that dosn't mean it is.
Try timing the same project burning at 1X then again at 2X.

Sometimes you'll find that both are actually being recorded at 1X.

[nguyendaniel]

RevSchafer,

I think you need to go after the media company. If their media is approved for 2X, then it should work (of course these companies are notorious for labeling their media as 2X when they are clearly not).

The issue come down to this: there is a requirement for a level of performance criteria. If the requirement is not met, then don't expect the performance criteria to be met.

Example (far fetched, but still applicable): Pioneer specs the operating condition of their drive to operate with a 5V supply, at 2AMPS. Let's say the power supply in your computer is bad, cannot deliver the power it needs to operate, do you blame Pioneer?. No, you fix the power supply.

Same thing. If the media you are using are not 2X certified (and I mean true certification), then don't expect the drive to rise to a level of performance it was not designed for.

[ktnwin]

I don't understand this mess.
I bought 32X CD-RW drive, then stick in 10X CD-R. I just cannot expect my CD burner to burn it at 32X. PERIOD.

[Greg12]

get some 32x certified media



Oh, I think they say all burning speeds are relitive hence

2x max write.

there goes ur lawsuit

[Greg12]

for the price of the lawsuit u could buy certified media

[Kusanagi]

for the price of the lawsuit u could buy certified media

LOL! (I'm sure ALOT of certified media...)


Kusanagi

[RevSchafer]

get some 32x certified media

Oh, I think they say all burning speeds are relitive hence

2x max write.

there goes ur lawsuit

FYI: The media I bought does not specify a max writing speed. I bought the media before the drive even arrived on my doorstep. I didn't know at the time that I would have to look specifically for 2X media.

I own a 16x Plextor drive that I routinely burn 10x - 12x media in with no problems. A speed rating on the media only indicates that the company guarantees it to work at that speed. Just like Intel chips are rated at a specific clock speed, but many people have great success operating them at higher speeds.

If I'm the only person who thinks that this is worthy of a lawsuit, then I obviously won't spend the money to go any further. I was under the mistaken impression that based on other people's postings that people were not happy with the fact that Pioneer did what they did, and as far as I could tell, they do not advertise the fact or warn you that there is a limit to what media you can use and obtain the optimal performance.

[RevSchafer]

for the price of the lawsuit u could buy certified media

LOL! (I'm sure ALOT of certified media...)


Kusanagi

Just out of curiosity, Kusanagi, why did you post the story about the HP lawsuit if you're so against the idea of suing manufacturers for not living up their advertised promises?

[Kusanagi]

Just out of curiosity, Kusanagi, why did you post the story about the HP lawsuit if you're so against the idea of suing manufacturers for not living up their advertised promises?

1.) To help those 'stuck' with DVD100i drives - especially since HP released the DVD200i 6 short months after the 100i (thats gotta sting). At least those that bought the Pioneer A03 when it first came out, had a good 2 years use out of it before the A04 came out.

2.) HP printed on the box 'burn to DVD+RW and DVD+R', which was OBVIOUSLY not the case when all +R firmware references began disappearing in March on ALL HP's pages that had to do with the DVD100i.

It's like Pioneer releasing the A04 with ONLY DVD-RW (less compatible) media burning functions, but the box said you could 'easily burn -R write once and more compatible media' on the box and would only require a simple firmware update which would be released in a few months. Then went about face and said the A04 would not burn the more compatible -R media and you now needed to spend $100 to 'upgrade' and ship your A04 back to Pioneer to get the A05. This is exactly what HP has done and they should be held accountable for screwing those that bought the DVD100i. What kind of business is that to your customer base?

Your case is bleh at the best. Try suing the cheaper dvd-r media manufacturers - as this is not a Pioneer hardware issue, but a media issue (as pointed out in nguyendaniel & ktnwin's posts earlier).


Kusanagi

[Mirror_Image]

Until you retain counsel and start moving with this, HP will not take you seriously. They will assume that you are an individual that lacks the will to fight (for proof they need only notice that you have not rented any legal muscle, a sure sign of lack of will).

I'm not trying to be combative, but it's time to stop talking the talk and start walking the walk. With all of the (much more significant) things that HP has to worry about, rest assured that until they begin receiving subpoenas for documents and records, and they are required to give depositions to your attorney(s), it will remain a non-issue.

Stop saying "I want to...", "I ought to...", "I could...", or anything else people like to say, but never do what they say they'd like to do. It will just frustrate you, so go consult a firm that specializes in this type of action (they'll take care of the rest, believe me), or forget about it.

[Kusanagi]

Mirror_Image, referring to HP, looks like a few people are starting to act, see -- http://www.dvdplusrw.org/cgi/ikonboard/topic.cgi?forum=2&topic=1123&start=0


Kusanagi

[RevSchafer]

It's like Pioneer releasing the A04 with ONLY DVD-RW (less compatible) media burning functions, but the box said you could 'easily burn -R write once and more compatible media' on the box and would only require a simple firmware update which would be released in a few months. Then went about face and said the A04 would not burn the more compatible -R media and you now needed to spend $100 to 'upgrade' and ship your A04 back to Pioneer to get the A05. This is exactly what HP has done and they should be held accountable for screwing those that bought the DVD100i.

So, since HP claimed that you would be able to use cheap media and now you can't...

and I'm claiming that Pioneer didn't specify that I had to use expensive media, and thus I can't use cheap media as I had planned at the speed they promised...

I guess I don't see the difference. It's OK to sue HP since you can't use cheap media, but you can't sue Pioneer for the same reason?

[Xesdeeni]

There really is a significant difference:

HP claimed that they could write DVD+R discs. They later recanted and said that it would be upgradable to write DVD+R discs. Then the drives went on sale. At that time they said that it would never do DVD+R discs, and removed all references to DVD+R writing from their web site. Their story changed AFTER people had purchased the drives. [Note that HP never put the DVD+R on the box, as apparently Ricoh and Philips did.]

Pioneer said their drive would record DVD-Rs at 2x. Their drive WILL record DVD-Rs at 2x. But just like CD-Rs, not all discs can be burned at the maximum rate of the drive. Of course, most CD-Rs have their maximum speed on the package, while most DVD-Rs do not.

So HP pulled the bait-and-switch. While Pioneer didn't actually do anything but follow a spec, by reading the disc for its maximum supported rate, in a way very similar to the way CD-Rs work.

[I do agree that Pioneer could have allowed the user to override the setting, but that was a poor software design decision, not a malicious lie.]

Your beef really should be with the DVD-R manufacturers who aren't putting a speed rating on their media.

Xesdeeni

[Kusanagi]

Ok RevSchafer, I'm just going to go with and quote Mirror_Image here again, but if you REALLY, REALLY think you have a case (which is next to nothing) -- Stop saying "I want to...", "I ought to...", "I could...", or anything else people like to say, but never do what they say they'd like to do. It will just frustrate you, so go consult a firm that specializes in this type of action (they'll take care of the rest, believe me), or forget about it.

The A04 has been excellent for me. I don't mind paying around $5 a disc for some GOOD Apple DVD-R 2x certified media. I'm not complaining about the price - it is what it is, and only time will change that soon. The work that I have done with my A04 has already paid itself off. It just looks like you a.) want to cause trouble with us -R/W users, or b.) like I said earlier, your just too cheap to buy some good, certified 2x DVD-R media and are now simply complaining about the price. However, if you do anything to slow down development on new media and new Pioneer drives with these brainless lawsuits you so want to start, I'm sure you will not have too many friends here...


Kusanagi