Reading/capturing Hi8 datecode (data code)

[kydar]

I had an old Hi8 camcorder (Ricoh R18H, same as Sony TR101) which recorded datecode on my Hi8 tapes. I also have a Sony TRV460 Digital8 camcorder which plays back the Hi8 tapes. Unfortunately the TRV460 does not read the Hi8 datecode, so it is lost when I capture the analog tapes to my computer.

Does anyone know of a solution to this? I want to be able to retain the datecode when capturing from the analog tapes. I will even buy another camcorder if that's what it takes.

Buying an analog capture card and capturing from the old analog camcorder is not an option since the R18H is "write-only" for the datecode (says so right in the manual) so it would not read the datecode while capturing either. I think I need either A) an analog Hi8 camcorder which reads Hi8 datacodes, AND an analog capture card on my computer, or B) a Digital8 camcorder which can read Hi8 datecodes. Any suggestions would be most welcome. Thank you.

[Manokat]

There is a lot of products you could use to read SMPTE Time Code.
Check this link: http://www.horita.com/smptetimecode.htm

[walterd8]

I've had a Sony Hi8 CCD-TR101 since 1992 and have over a hundred hours of home movies with my kids and family growing up. I chose the CCD-TR101 because it has RC Timecode. As you described, this feature puts the date and time on the tape as it is recording, together with the tape counter, which can then be viewed by pushing the DATA button, or the DATE(+) or TIME(NEXT) buttons on the TV screen.

A few years ago I realized that it would soon be time to archive all of my Hi8 data to the next generation of media. Although there were lots of solutions for the audio and video capture, there was nothing that transfered the dates and times of the scenes as well, which is something that an archivist such as myself didn't want to lose.

In fact, it actually turns out that neither Sony, nor anyone else, had a way to transfer the dates and times, other than viewing each tape and manually writting down the the tape counter and the date and time.

However, here is a solution to your problem.

After capturing the A/V (and there are several ways of doing it see Old Family movies (VHS) to DVD (help a frustrated newbie before wife kills) https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=294104&highlight=hi8+date+time), you could extract the date and time from your Hi8 tapes using the tool Hi8DateTime tool that I have I have recently developed. Hi8DateTime automation controls the camcorder using an included LANC control cable and extracts the date and time at high speed while the tape is on fast forward to produce a list of date/time values. It then creates a SAMI subtitle file that you use together with the captured video to view with Windows Media Player. The subtitles can be turned on and off through the WMP subtitle feature.

The FAQ at http://www.octochron.com/faqProduct.htm gives more details on how to extract the date and time with Hi8DateTime.

If the Ricoh R18H could display the Date and Time while on Fast Forward, then I would get another Ricoh R18H. Otherwise, I would want to test one of your Hi8 tapes in a Sony CCD-TR101. I think that optiion A is the right one: depending on how similar the Ricoh R18H was to the Sony CCD-TR101 you could either reaquire a Ricoh R18H or a Sony CCD-TR101 and some means of doing analog capture.

I don't think Option B will work, as all tests and user experience I have encountered so far says that Digital8 cameras cannot read the Hi8 RC Timecode area.

[Jim Norman]

Hello,

I am getting ready to capture approximately 50 hours of Hi8 video containing the Sony Hi8 Datacode info. I would very much like to capture the date and time separately and would like to use the Hi8DateTime program developed by Octochron (Octochron.com) . However, I am reluctant to place an online order for the product unless I am sure that the product is still being sold. I have tried to contact the developer, Walter Berndl several ways, so far without success. Does anyone know if the product is still available?

Assuming that I cannot purchase one from the website, I would like to borrow or purchase a used product (interface and software) if someone has one they wish to loan or sell, or can tell me where to look for a used one.

Thanks.
Jim Norman
Vienna, VA

[kydar]

Me too, Jim. I also tried to contact Walter several times; he never replied. His website hasn't been updated in about 3 years as far as I can tell. Let me know if you have any luck getting in contact with him.

[Jim Norman]

Kydar,

It appears that Walter is with a new company. I found his listing on LinkedIn and sent an email to his new company email address, but no response.

In searching the web for LANC control, I did find a company that makes a LANC to USB adapter and associated software which is at www.appliedlogiceng.com. The associated software supports control of LANC type devices and reads out the time code, but does not display the date. I have sent them an email asking if they could create a program which would do what the Hi8DateTime program did. I'll let you know what I hear back from them. Their LANC to USB adapter (ALE-708) might work with the Hi8DateTime program if it would be possible to get a copy of the program.

Jim

[Blackburn]

Hi Everyone!

I bring up this dormant thread because I've got a similar question, and despite searching I haven't found if it's been answered.

Was date&time embedded on the Hi8 tapes, and should I be able to find out when recordings were made? Or am I confusing it with my later DV camera which certainly had that ability?

I have the old camera my Hi8 tapes were made on (it works after all these years in mothballs, just replaced the internal battery).

It is/was a Nikon VN9500 Hi8 PAL; it was a Sony product under the Nikon name. Unfortunately I can't find the user manual.

The VN9500 has a button for 'Data Screen', but the only information that displays is "Hi8 - SP - minutes and seconds into tape"

This camera had no LCD screen, and it's little viewfinder screen is not working. I've been playing the tapes via S-video cable to a Canopus100 connected to my MacBookPro/FinalCutProX.

I also hooked up the camera to a TV, to see if it date&time might then appear, but no. I've borrowed a well-functioning ' digital 8' Sony TRV110, which has a 'data code' button - it showed me date and time when I recorded something today in digital8, but it doesn't give date&time on my old tapes.

Altogether it is not a terribly important thing, but if the info is on my old tapes I'd like to see it.

[kydar]

Hi Blackburn,

There is a good chance that the date/time of recording are encoded on the tapes, if the camera used to make the recordings had that capability (and, has its own date & time set correctly at the time the recordings were made). I am not familiar with the Nikon VN9500, but if its a clone of the Sony TR101, I can help you out with the manual. Well, the NTFS manual anyway, I don't have a manual for the PAL version, but hopefully they're not too different. PM me if you would like a copy.

It is really a shame that Walter Berndl seemed to fall off the face of the earth. His product was unique in its ability to extract Hi8 date/time. I have never seen another solution similar to his. But, he's not selling it anymore.

[Blackburn]

^^^

Kydar!

Glad to hear from you, in particular since you began this thread, over ten and a half years ago!

I googled the SonyTR101 and the manual PDF was the first hit. I've looked through it and it gives me some glimmer of hope.

The TR101 wasn't identical to my old camera (apart from looks, the TR101 had a steady shot feature which mine hadn't) but all of that user manual describes a very similar machine.

On page 44 of the PDF, there's described how 'data code' can be shown in the viewfinder and the display window. Now, my viewfinder is kaput, so all I have is the display window. That manual says that pushing the 'date+' button will show the recording date; on my camera the button is labeled just 'date', not 'date+', and when I push it then all that is shown is the current date and not the date of recorded tape in the camera.

Even so, the TR101 manual also has a drawing of the remote control unit, and on that unit there is a 'data code' button. Seeing that drawing I knew that somewhere, somewhere, somewhere in various boxes of old stuff which I have squirreled away in attics etc. I have that same remote control.

If memory serves, then I wonder if the 'data code' button on that remote control was the only way I was able (some 20 years ago) to call up the recording date on tapes.

I will make a search of my attics. I can't promise that it will be quick, because there are so many.... lol

[kydar]

I still get notifications every time someone replies to this thread, a decade later...LOL. I guess I am still hoping that one day Walter will resurface and sell me a copy of his software.

I don't think that the Data Code button on the remote has any special magic that the button on the camcorder does not, but you are certainly welcome to give it a try!

On my old Hi8 tapes, if I hook it up to a TV and press the Data Code button, the date/time or the recording pops up on the TV screen. If yours shows only blank bars that look something like --/--/-- --:--:-- then the chances are that the date/time was not recorded on the tape.

I am reasonably (90%?) certain that Digital8 camcorders cannot read data codes that were recorded by Hi8 camcorders. Only the original Hi8 camcorders can read them.

Best of luck with your project, let me know how you do.

[JVRaines]

Why not capture once through the wire, then again by pointing a camera at the video monitor with Data Code turned on? Tracks should be easy to sync if you haven't dropped any frames. Line them up and save to a file with two video streams and one audio stream. When you play back, you can switch video streams when you want to check the code.

[kydar]

@JVRaines,

That's not an unreasonable approach, but for me personally it presents a few problems:

1. Doubling the size of the video by recording two full streams. Seems wasteful.
2. Quality of the stream with the code showing would be vastly inferior (if I'm understanding you correctly - camcorder rip). Presumably though, you'd only be viewing this stream occasionally to check the code, then would switch back to the "main" stream. So this isn't a really big problem.
3. Sync issues if frames are dropped. Moreover, I don't even know how you can tell if frames were dropped.
4. I personally do not know how to record a video with 2 separate streams, nor do I have any software which can do this. I am pretty much a novice at encoding. The "Hi8 Date Time" software that we were discussing was sort of a push-here-dummy solution. At least I think so - never had a chance to actually use it.

I need to find a solution before my 23+ year old Hi8 tapes deteriorate to the point where they're not playable anymore

[JVRaines]

Admittedly not push-here-dummy, but at least you could implement it today instead of waiting for Godot. I'd probably capture to DV — my card tells me if any frames have been dropped and I use a frame sync, so it's not likely to be a problem. Then I'd trim the captures in Virtual Dub (making sure they're exactly the same length) and resave them. Finally, I'd put the streams together (optionally with a different kind of compression) using FFmpeg. If you don't want to drag both streams around in one file, you could keep the direct copy as your primary, then make another file with the code windowed in.

[NJRoadfan]

The software doesn't seem to actually extract the datecode via LANC, it just controls the camcorder. It actually requires two capture passes, one with and one without the datecode showing onscreen. The capture with the datecode can be cropped and, likely using some avisynth filtering, the digits isolated and OCR'ed using scene change detection (and effectively replacing the now unavailable software). The output can be dumped to a subtitle file and tweaked to fit the "clean" capture.

Regarding remotes, the later model shipped with Digital 8 camcorders have the "DATA CODE" button and use the same IR commands as the earlier Hi-8 models.

[PIERRENANTES]

To my surprise, my old CCD-TR805E Hi8 sony video camera can still read data code in fast forward, although in bad state and can't record. (I had already captured my tapes with a DCR-TV340E without data code, but then you want to know when your scenes were shot)
It's not too difficult to make captions from data code using Tesseract OCR program.
If someone is interested, I can explain the details.

[kydar]

I'm definitely interested. Walter Berndl (see msg #3 in this thread) disappeared from the face of the earth about 10 years ago...tried numerous times to contact him with no reply, so his program Hi8DateTime isn't an option anymore.

[dellsam34]

I'm pretty sure if he gets a payment of $169.95 he will respond, But who pays that much for a just a feature? I certainly wouldn't.

[kydar]

Not to be callous, but, I mean...he might be....no longer with us. As I said, I tried to contact him many times and....crickets. His website is still up, but it might be hosted on some free hosting site.

[PIERRENANTES]

Hello kydar,
Your answer was in my junk folder, so I just see it now.
Here is an answer to give principles in steps. I can detail any step if necessary:
1 - capture audio/video (I suppose you have already done it 20 years ago !)
2 - display date and capture date in fast forward (you get the date in white on black background in a short video file). Same principle if you want to capture time.
3 - with a video editor, adjust the length of the video to get the number of different captions you want to get : e.g.: you have a one thousand seconds video 25 fps and you want a caption each second. The you have to adjust the length of date video file to 1000 / 25 = 40 seconds.
4 - export your 40 seconds date video in 40 x 25 = 1000 image frames (this can be done with a video editor, including free editors)
5 - with tesseract (this is a very useful free OCR tool), generate a single text file of 1000 date lines.
6 - clean the date text file with excel to delete the first character of each line. (Use the RIGHT function of excel)
7 - convert your cleaned date file *.txt file to *.srt file with the free soft subtitle edit.

That's it, you have your srt caption file. You can also convert your srt file in any other subtitle format.

If you want to make captions of date + time, apply same principle from step 2 to 6 for time and get a time text file.
Then concatenate date + time with excel and get a single date+time *.txt file that you convert in *.srt file using same principle.
You can use different softwares to achieve the same result. You can even write an executable program to achieve the different steps, but for a few tapes, it’s not worth it.
Anything not clear, just ask.

[PIERRENANTES]

I like to share a related subject; how to use the free soft dvdate to generate scene changes and video summarization.

1 - load your video in dvdate (convert your video in *.avi if this was not your original format; you can delete this temporary *.avi file after last step)
2 - generate a *.scn file with dvdate (menu scenes -> create a scn file or shortcut ctrl+$)
3 - export in a word file the list of scenes with a snapshot of first frame (menu scenes -> export your scenes to Word)

You have a quick overview of your video by just looking at this Word file

[PIERRENANTES]

octochron website was last mofified on 12/13/2010 22:14:46.
Walter Berndl was Vice President, Engineering of N8 Identity Inc. untill march 2020

[kydar]

Wow, idk how you found that information, but if his website hasn't been updated in over 11 years i think it's pretty safe to say he's out of business. I am kind of surprised that it's still up after that long...I mean,who is paying for the hosting? Must be a free hosting site *shrug*

To be 100% honest I think his product was overpriced anyway. You gave me some interesting ideas that i might try. Not exactly plug and play like his software (supposedly) was, but worth trying.

[PIERRENANTES]

I have a plugin with gives the date of last update of a webpage.
Octochron is hosted by dreamhost which not free but I guess Walter Berndl doesn't have to pay for some reason.
You can see his CV on LinkedIn. He was owner of Berndl and Associates Ltd. which developped octochron.
He must be about 70 today, so I guess retired.

copy paste of LinkedIn:

"""""""""""
Berndl and Associates Ltd.Berndl and Associates Ltd. 2005 - 2011 · 6 ans2005 - 2011 · 6 ans

I created a unique hobbyist product, Hi8DateTime, a one-step Hi8 video datacode archiver and logger.

Hi8DateTime was developed with proprietary OCR and scene-boundary sensor fusion algorithms to convert date and time images on Hi8 analog video tapes to digital subtitle formats. The Hi8DateTime system consists of over 50,000+ lines of Visual C++ using DirectShow and real time LANC video controller software.

www.octochron.com was the web marketing and delivery vehicle (now inactive).
""""""""

[kydar]

It's a shame he didn't release Hi8DateTime to the public domain when he stopped developing it. But there are other solutions.

[cwig]

For anyone who is interested, I developed an open source tool to extract the date/time from Hi8 via LANC. You can find the tool and instructions here https://github.com/cwig/hi8_lanc_date_and_time. It requires building a LANC to USB converter using an Arduino board. The tool is rough around the edges, but it was good enough for what I needed.

[kydar]

@cwig, that's great, can you tell us more? What exactly does your tool do? Are you willing to provide a bit of support for those of us who have no idea how to use github?

[cwig]

There are three parts to this project:
(1) Building the USB-to-LANC adapter which I borrowed from other projects.
(2) A tool (a web app, no downloads or installs, just the Chrome browser) that connects to the camera via the USB-to-LANC adapter to record all the LANC packets coming from the camera. These packets of data include the date/time information along with a lot of other status information about the camera that is probably not important.
(3) The second part of the tool reads the raw packets and displays timing information about the dates/times throughout the tape. I don't know if I quite captured all the nuances of LANC packets which is why in the first step I capture all the LANC packets so I can decode again if something needs to be fixed without going back to the original tape.

The output of the second tool looks something like this:

00:00:00 -- 11/4/2003, 1:40:00 AM
00:02:18 -- 11/4/2003, 1:49:00 AM
00:04:57 -- 1/14/2004, 8:36:00 PM
00:05:51 -- 1/19/2004, 12:17:00 PM
00:08:05 -- 1/19/2004, 12:22:00 PM
00:08:32 -- 5/12/2004, 7:31:00 PM
00:11:05 -- 5/12/2004, 7:39:00 PM
00:15:11 -- 5/12/2004, 7:44:00 PM
00:17:08 -- 5/12/2004, 7:49:00 PM
00:18:35 -- 6/10/2004, 4:28:00 PM

This is a very compressed view of the dates/times. The raw LANC data contains much more granular, near frame level reporting of dates and times, but I don't have a specific need for that level of granularity.

I'm happy to help anyone work their way through using this. For me, writing up documentation for a general audience is possibly more work than building the tool itself. I think the documentation can kind of self build as people reach out with questions here. The first step in project would be to build the USB adapter described here https://github.com/Novgorod/LANC-USB-GUI or the read-only version on my github page.

[PIERRENANTES]

@cwig, thank you for this very interesting contribution.

I didn't know about all the digital output data available on LANC since it's not available in Sony documentation, but I suspect that Walter Berndl didn't know about it as well since he has not used this digital output in his development as far as I understand (NJRoadfan in his post dated 29th Sep 2015 23:56 has the same understanding)

I see now two differents methods to generate date/time subtitles:

1 - extract data code through LANC as explained by cwig and generate the subtitles. (cwig method)
2 - capture data code in fast forward , perform OCR of the captured video file and generate the subtitles (Walter Berndl method)

In my post dd 1st Feb 2022 17:59, I explained the guide lines to apply in my own way the second method.

[PIERRENANTES]

NB : regarding archiving/indexing our old Hi8 video tapes, there is an alternative or complement to the generation of date subtitles :
it is possible to generate snapshot of each scene according to my post dd 2nd Feb 2022 12:58 and to add the date and time to each scene snapshot.

[kydar]

@cwig, what equipment are you using to play the Hi8 tapes? I have a Sony TR-101 camcorder, but in the owner's manual it states that the TR-101 can write TC time code but cannot read it. I am wondering then if that information would be capturable via the LANC, or if I'd need to buy another piece of equipment to play back the tapes.

Trivia: this thread is 6868 days old today.