best way to convert PAL to NTSC?

[jubilex]

PAL vcds lose audio sync frequently in my Apex1500. I want to convert the PAL (352x28 to NTSC, preferably with an unnoticeable loss in quality. Is this a pipe dream?

[Douglesh]

Pal-NTSC conversions should be avioded unless there is no other options. Obviously your video stream is in 25FPS, so if you just change the res to 352x240@23.97, you will cut out 1FPS, and make the video jerkier. Although its a complex method, here is the BEST way to do a PAL -> NTSC conversion.

1. Extract the audio from your video file, save it as a wave file

2. Re-encode the video stream (ONLY VIDEO) @ 23.97FPS, and 352x240 resolution, make sure the DO NOT FRAME RATE CONVERSION is selected, in the advanced tab of TMPGEnc

3. After your video stream is done, check the length, it SHOULD be different to the original.

4. Download COOLEDIT, open your WAV file, and choose, transform, time/pitch, stretch.

5. Stretch the WAV file to the length of the new NTSC video stream

6. Once that is finished , MUX the modified WAV file with the NTSC stream

7. Done, you have a smooth NTSC video, amde from pal, with audio still in synch, and no loss in quality!

I know it sounds tough, it was for me at first, but once you do it once or twice, its really easy, i just did it with a 98 minute NTSC film, and it worked great.

[jubilex]

Doesn't sound too hard. Thanks a lot, I'll try it!

[Bluez]

why re-encode the video stream? just extract the audio using vdub, recalculate the length of the video at the new framerate (ntsc as opposed to pal), then resize (stretch / pitch / whatever in your audio editor) the wav file, then use tmpgenc to reencode everything

although you have to calculate the length of the new audio stream by hand (or use a spreadsheet ) it saves you one encoding step

[grouch]

You guys are trying to make it too hard.

just convert the pal to ntsc with TMPGenc as normal.

demux the sound out of the pal version and the video out of ntsc version.

then mux the pal audio and ntsc video together as vcd.
burn with favorite program.

it's not that hard.

[Capt_Diode]

I have completed the steps that Douglesh mentions earlier in this post and it does work. I have used it for both DVD and VCD conversions. From memory, I used stretch "104.271" without preserving pitch or tempo and audio was in perfect sync with the video. I was wondering if it would be possible to just resync the video without re-encoding and mux in the stretched audio. I know the frame size would be off a little but would retain the original video quality. If this could be done I would think it would speed up the amount of time required by TMPGEnc. Any thoughts or comments?

Captain Diode

[grouch]

I just can't fathom having to go thru all that BS to convert pal to ntsc. it's real easy since the pal sound already syncs with the movie. you are just changing the frame rate and size. then stick the original sound back in with the new frames.


and all it takes for time is the amount of time for the convertion and about 10 minutes of demuxing both flicks and muxing the ntsc video with the pal sound.

it works flawless at my house but then again electrons are testy that way. should work for everyone.

[Capt_Diode]

Grouch,

Everytime I have attemted the method you describe, frames are added making the picture jitter. If you have a method that seems to work well, Please post the instructions and I will gladly attempt this. I'm sure the methods I have used are different than the one you are using. The method that I use for PAL to NTSC works well but is rather complex. If there is a simpler method I'm all ears!

[foxx1966]

I tried using the methods described above, but end up with an mpg that seems to be WAY out of sync with the video. I tried several times between last night, and this morning, but still end up with very out of sync audio and video. If I am understanding correctly, the steps to follow are:
1. Extract the sound file from the original pal video using VDUB, saving as a WAVE file
2. De-Mux original PAL video using TMPGENC
3. Take the VIDEO portion only of what you have just Demuxed, and convert it to the regular NTSC FILM format using the tmpgenc built in template
4. Compare the time using the "preview" function of tmpgenc of the original pal video, and the new ntsc video you just made. The ntsc video is LONGER than the pal video.
5. Take the wave file that you extracted in step 1, and STRETCH it using cooledit (I used cooledit 2000), until the time is equal to the time of the new ntsc video (which I had to figure manually, because I didn't see an option that actually showed the time in hours and minutes on cooledit, I believe it was all in seconds)
6. I then had to take the wave file and re-convert it back to an MP2 file using tmpgenc. Tmpgenc would NOT re-mux using the wave file, would only accept it in mp2 format. I didn't see this step mentioned in the post above, so am I missing something here?
7. When all this was done, and the ntsc video I created and the new mp2 sound file that equaled the netsc video in length are re-muxed together, I ended up with a video that appeared to be about 3 or 4 seconds out of sync with the audio.

I also tried the other method listed above, converted just the video portion to NTSC film format, and then re-muxed it with the ORIGINAL unchanged pal audio in the original mp2 format. I still ended up with a video that was out of sync.

If someone can please clue me in to what I am doing wrong, I would greatly appreciate it. I thought I followed the steps precisely (except when I had to convert the wav back to mp2 to re-mux), but maybe I am missing something?? Is there a particular wav format you must save as when extracting from VDUB? Is there some specific settings that must be followed exactly when using cooledit 2000 to stretch the video? Is there some settings that need to be changed when stretching the video using cooledit 2000? If someone could please list the steps and the settings used for each program in a STEP BY STEP method, I'm sure it would help a lot of us out.

[Capt_Diode]

Foxx1966,

I am attaching the notes I originally posted on the forum months back. These notes were made converting a PAL DVD to NTSC VCD/SxVCD. I have used this on VCD's PAL to NTSC and works fine. If your source is VCD/MPG1 simply strip out the audio as described earlier in this post, stretch the audio then use TMPGenc to re-encode. Pay close attention to the settings. Use the original MPG file for the video source, Use the stretched audio file for the audio source and select the film NTSC template. Click on the advanced tab in TMPGenc and check Deinterlace (none) and Do not frame rate conversion. All other selections leave unchecked.

I have been told that this method sometimes still produces jitter although I have yet to see it, however I know it does exist. If this is the case, reverse the frame order. I have read numerous posts on this and I believe this will solve that problem.

I am very interested in the method that Grouch describes. If anyone can enlighten me on this I would love to know what was done. My method works but is not simple but then none of this stuff is.

DVD PAL to VCD/SxVCD NTSC

Step 1
SmartRipper
Click tab Stream Processing and check Enable Stream Processing
Deselect all languages except the one required to listen to in my case English
Select Settings per taste. (Settings-> Movie tab, Key check once, File - Splitting every vob-file, OK)
Select Target Directory
Start

Step 2
DVD2AVI
Open VOB file created above
Click video Field Operation and select none.
Click File and Save Project
Select Target Directory and Name
Save

Step 3
Using Cool Edit
Open wave file created above
Click Transform, Time/Pitch, Stretch
Enter 104.271 in the Ratio window
Click OK

Step 4
TMPGEnc
Load the VCD or SVCD template NTSC Film
Click Settings
Click on the advanced tab and check Deinterlace (none) and Do not frame rate conversion. All other selections leave unchecked
Select the Video Source (d2v file or original MPG file)
Select the audio source (wav file created with Cool Edit)
Select a target name and directory
Everything else is default
Click Start

At the end of the creation of the mpg file TMPGEnc will popup an error message. I think it recalculates the frames based on the audio that was stretched as far as I can tell. Just click ok and the file should be complete. This is how I was able to create my DVD to VCD and SVCD converting PAL to NTSC.


The process was time consuming to learn and takes quite a bit of time to complete. In the example I tested, there are 1290 frames at 25 frames per second. Basically what you need to do is calculate how long a frame needs to be shown based on the standard you wish. The PAL standard would be 1290 Frames at 25 frames per second equals a time of 51.6 Seconds. Since 23.976 is the NTSC Film Standard, (1290 frames divided by 23.976 equals 53.804 Seconds) each frame must be shown longer to keep horizontal sync thus making the movie slightly longer. This requires the need to stretch the audio to match the additional amount of time caused by the conversion. When I tried to preserve pitch it created what sounded like stuttering and I never used it. Also I noticed that the 29.97 also made the voices pitch up a bit. Although the files for 29.97 are smaller, the work I did focused on 23.97 and resampling the audio.

The steps above are based on my tinkering and there could be more accurate means of completing the conversion, I just don't know enough about the betas and trial software I have downloaded. I have found some information on this site but nothing that I could use to be a start to finish procedure. I am not an expert by far but this worked flawlessly for me. If anyone has further improvements or could streamline the process I would be open to suggestions posted on the forum. This could also be reverse engineered to convert NTSC to PAL if needed.

Hope this helps everyone,
Captain Diode

[grouch]

Well everyone,
I am truly sorry if it is that hard to do for you all. for some reason my way works for me and it hasn't ever been out of sync. that isn't to say that if i play it with media player that it is perfect, because media player screws it up big time, but after it is burned it comes out perfect.

anyway, in theory the sound shouldn't be changed at all because the time of the film doesn't change at all. and all the things should happen as they did in the pal version. at the same time. all we are trying to do is add a couple frames per second and change the size of those frames. so you should only have to put the new video stream to the old sound and it should sync right up if the new video stream is correctly encoded. sorry if it doesn't work for ya. i really wish it was that easy for everyone, but somehow my programs don't always seem to work the same as everyone elses. not sure what the difference is but hell if it works for me in theory it should work for everyone else too right?

once again: (TMPGenc is the only program you need)
1. convert the pal mpg file to ntsc.
2. demux the pal audio stream from the original pal mpg.
3. demux the ntsc video stream from the new ntsc mpg.
4. multiplex the pal audio stream with the ntsc video stream as a mpg-1 vcd.
5. burn as a vcd with favorite flavor burning program.

if there are any bitches gripes complaints or questions you can get me ALL day tomorrow on AOL IM as grouchytim and i will be more than happy to help/listen to you.

hope it works for you,
grouch

[Capt_Diode]

Grouch,

Can you further explain step 1? When I use the NTSC/Film template it always adds frames making the picture jump about every second.

Thanks,
Captain Diode

[jubilex]

It occurred to me -- the reason I asked the question was because I wanted to lose as little quality as possible in converting from PAL to NTSC -- the reason for the conversion being that the PAL vcd had audio sync problems when I played it on my Apex.

But then I started thinking -- isn't the Apex doing the same conversion to NTSC in order to play on my NTSC tv? In other words, isn't the Apex changing the resolution and framerate in real-time, which would presumably give WORSE quality than doing the same conversion in TMPGenc, which has all the time in the world to do the best possible conversion? Wouldn't converting to NTSC *always* be the best choice for playback on an NTSC tv, regardless of how well your player plays PAL vcds?

[Douglesh]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
On 2001-12-27 06:27:12, grouch wrote:
You guys are trying to make it too hard.

just convert the pal to ntsc with TMPGenc as normal.

demux the sound out of the pal version and the video out of ntsc version.

then mux the pal audio and ntsc video together as vcd.
burn with favorite program.

it's not that hard.
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes but if you convert 23.97FPS to 25FPS without changing the frequency of the framerate, you make the movie more jerky. The encoder repeats 1.03Frames every second, you will notice that in playback. That is why you use the long cooledit method, you arent adding any extra frames.

[Douglesh]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
On 2001-12-27 19:10:34, grouch wrote:
Well everyone,
I am truly sorry if it is that hard to do for you all. for some reason my way works for me and it hasn't ever been out of sync. that isn't to say that if i play it with media player that it is perfect, because media player screws it up big time, but after it is burned it comes out perfect.

anyway, in theory the sound shouldn't be changed at all because the time of the film doesn't change at all. and all the things should happen as they did in the pal version. at the same time. all we are trying to do is add a couple frames per second and change the size of those frames. so you should only have to put the new video stream to the old sound and it should sync right up if the new video stream is correctly encoded. sorry if it doesn't work for ya. i really wish it was that easy for everyone, but somehow my programs don't always seem to work the same as everyone elses. not sure what the difference is but hell if it works for me in theory it should work for everyone else too right?

once again: (TMPGenc is the only program you need)
1. convert the pal mpg file to ntsc.
2. demux the pal audio stream from the original pal mpg.
3. demux the ntsc video stream from the new ntsc mpg.
4. multiplex the pal audio stream with the ntsc video stream as a mpg-1 vcd.
5. burn as a vcd with favorite flavor burning program.

if there are any bitches gripes complaints or questions you can get me ALL day tomorrow on AOL IM as grouchytim and i will be more than happy to help/listen to you.

hope it works for you,
grouch
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>


Ill give you this. Your way is shorter, and simpler, BUT the output file is shitter. Do you not understand that if you blindly change the framerate from 23.97 to 25, that you are
a)reencoding the file anyway
b)adding 1 still frame per second into the movie, which makes the movie much jerkier.

Are you seriously telling me that you havent noticed that you are making your movies jerkier by choice? i know u are trying to help, but you are giving people bad advice.

[N0SoopForU]

Douglesh,

You do mean 25 FPS to 23.97 FPS, right? And not 23.97 FPS to 25 FPS? He's talking about going from PAL to NTSC.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: N0SoopForU on 2001-12-27 22:48:53 ]</font>

[Douglesh]

OMG, i am talking about both. all though i only specifically mentioned NTSC -> PAL it works both ways. Just sit in your chair for a minute, scratch your arse, and use your brain.

If you have a source movie in 25fps, AND you select to convert it to 23.97FPS, the encoder will chop out 1 FPS, making the movie jerky, you cannot just chop out one frame per 25 frames, and magically hope that it will have no effect on the smoothness of the movie.

It works both ways, if you chop frames from a movie, you m ake it jerkier, if you add frames to a movie, you make it jerkier, why dont you try it.

If you actually think about it, its very simple. It amazes me that people dont even think about this when they go about blindly changing frame rates.

A summary for all who didnt understand

You try upping the frame rate on a movie from 23.97 to 25, and the output file will have 1 frame in every second repeated. You try reducing the FR from 25 to 23.97, the encoder will chop out 1 FPS. RESULT OF BOTH - A JERKIER MOVIE. HOW SIMPLE IS IT TO UNDERSTAND!

[andy1212]

I was thinking about getting this Mintek DVD Player and one feature that I like about is that it is multisystem compatible(NTSC/PAL/Auto). Does this mean that I wouldn't have to worry about converting my PAL VCD's to NTSC to make them compatible with the Mintek DVD Player?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: andy1212 on 2001-12-28 04:38:28 ]</font>

[neo2810]

Yup... That's what it means Andy1212...

[andy1212]

Thanks Neo!!!!
*Thinks about stopping at Best Buy after work*

[Douglesh]

Andy, i think almost all DVD players are multisystem compatible, or maybe i am just nieve because my DVD player plays everything, anwyay, i think most players are multisystem, just not multiREGIONAL, however some are both

[andy1212]

OK, sorry but i'm a newbie as you might know already.
So if I have a Mpeg or M2v that is in PAL format and I want to make a (S)VCD, I shouldn't have any problem playing it on a DVD player with (S)VCD support?

[grouch]

OK I just noticed the difference in the conversion processes here. everyone including the original poster is referring to NTSC/film (23.97 frames/sec) as NTSC (29.97 frames/sec) and that i didn't catch. why are you all trying to go to film? yes it's more jerky for a couple reasons. all of what douglesh has been saying is true about dropping frames and all that. your tv isn't really designed to run film either.

it's going to seem lame but in america we use 60 Hz power (60 cycles + and - per second) and half of that is 30. pretty damn close to 29.97 And in Europe they use 50 Hz hence the 25 frames per second of PAL.

If you are trying to go to a frames rate that doesn't really jive with your tv you may see some jerkyness just because of that alone.

But none of that really matters since I just figured out we aren't trying to go from pal to ntsc. we're trying to go from pal to ntsc/film.

my way works to ntsc. don't know about to ntsc/film. never tried it becuse i know why i use ntsc. sorry if i threw anyone off.

btw why aren't you guys trying to go to NTSC vice NTSC/film? trying to save cd's or something? private little save the planet campaign or something like that?

[RaleighNC]

I've been converting my divx pal to svcd-ntsc the same way as qrouch. Basically: I create my vid with cce/lsx/tmpeg using a ntsc template. Then I create a mp2 using tmpeg/scmpx. Then mux using bbmpeg or i-author/mux. My vids have been 50/50 successful on my Apex1500.

Since apex support both pal/ntsc (auto-mode??), is the obvious answer is to create a pal s/vcd?? No adding or losing frames to worry about??

[Capt_Diode]

Grouch,

The reason I use NTSC/Film is due to the encoding process 24/30. If I encode 24 frames rather than 30, theoretically the file size will be shorter since there are 6 less frames. For SxVCD this would also allow for more quality per frame. There is a feature in all NTSC DVD players called 3:2 Pulldown. I cannot give you specifics on how this works but it adds a field to about every third frame. TV is interlaced and requires 2 fields for every frame. Every DVD I own is encoded to NTSC/Film. As for a jerky picture I have never noticed any problems using this method. I am still interested in more information on step 1 when you have time.

Jubilex

I missed you first comment about the Apex player. My 703 will play PAL or NTSC fine on my TV. I wish I new how they did that. My feeling is a hardware decoder is always better than a software decoder. The Sync problem you describe I too have experienced on the VCDs I have made for my son. Not all of VCDs do this but specific ones do. I take the same VCD and play it on the computer and never loose sync. I don't know if converting from PAL to NTSC will get around the sync problem.

I would still like to know if demuxed video formatted for PAL could be resynced from 25 to 23.97 without re-encoding. I know the frame size would be off a little but might be worth not re-encoding to save quality. If anyone on this forum could advise on this I would greatly appreciate it.

Captain Diode

[Douglesh]

Grouch, most TV's nowadays are suited to play NTSCFilm, as are most DVD players. The only reason i chose NTSCFilm, is because @23.97FPS the encoder can apply a higher bitrate per frame as opposed to 29.97

[grouch]

I agree now a days the tv's are better nad can process the frames properly. That was a basic reasoning for why you would use 29.97 f/s. Anyway the bitrate thing sounds good to me for better quality per frame and all that.

I normally just use the template for vcd and it comes out perfect (imagine that the company actually made the template correctly?).

Capt_Diode,
using TMPGenc (any version) just use the NTSC template to convert the PAL mpg to NTSC. same way you probably always do it.
then strip the sound stream off pal and video stream off ntsc and mux those streams together again. burn with favorite flavor burner program. feel free to talk to me on AOL IM (grouchytim). just let me know who you are on here and i will be more than happy to talk with ya.

[dumwaldo]

grouch look at a video you converted from PAL to NTSC, not with windows media player but with virtual dub where you can look at each frame. if you look at the PAL version one frame at a time you will see there is motion in every frame. then look at the NTSC counterpart you produced and notice that there are 5 frames every second that just repeat the previous frame and show no motion.

i to thought this seemed like rediculous measures to go through as well and thats why i posted and learned about it in this thread. https://www.videohelp.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?topic=70563&forum=3 and now i see the jumps and chops that these people are talking about. it is just a question of how much of a perfectionist you are.

[Capt_Diode]

Grouch,

Thanks for your response. I wanted to clarify your method since there might be some tricks to TMPGenc that I didn't know about. I will tinker with this when I return from my visit with the guy with big black ears. FYI I do not have an AOL account nor IRC. I visit this forum frequently though I rarely post but thanks for the help.

Happy New Year to All!
Captain Diode ->|-

[kinneera]

Just for the record, I'm pretty sure the method posted by Douglesh at the very beginning of this thread is exactly what movie studios do professionally (although generally the other way around, 24fps film to 25 fps PAL).