Device ID and installation

[Caple]

Hello eveyone.
It has been a LONG time since I last played with video capturing and editing. But today I was given some old hardware and I'm not sure if it's usable or not.
This one:


[Attachment 65712 - Click to enlarge]

I've seen it with the lable Avid Pro, too. And, as far as I could understand, I would need Avid Liquid to use it. Some people say it only works on Windows 7, and some say it works on Windows 10.
I connected it to my PC with a USB cable, but nothing was detected on device manager. Maybe I need to install the software, also?
Any clue on how I should proceed is much appreciated.
I know the device is not that useful these days, but maybe if I need/want to capture some old VHS tape or something from a firewire, then it could come in hand.
Thanx a lot.

[jwillis84]

Its an Uncompressed Analog capture device, with Component, Composite, S-Video and DV inputs and outputs. In the early days of video capture there were workflows of Editing video that required First capturing Analog to Computer files, Editing in a Non-Linear fashion on the PC.. and then Second "Printing" a master copy back to the playback device.. usually a VCR or DV recorder.. so it had Analog (Outputs) as well as Analog (Inputs).. and that is why two of its sides has the same type of connectors.

Computer storage on a hard drive was very expensive back then.. so you erased and "freed" up the computer hard drive space as quickly as possible by "Printing" back to "Tape".

This device was made during the Windows 2000 and Windows XP days.. which were the DirectX 8 and DirectX 9 Windows eras.

In those days, hardware device drivers were matched up to operating system device drivers that piggy backed on kernel device drivers.. "thinking" it would make the device drivers less likely to crash the operating systems since critical parts of code was only allowed to be written by Microsoft.

Unfortunately the device drivers for that device were also released when Microsoft had only recently added USB 1.0, 1.1 and USB 2.0 device drivers.. that particular device needed USB 2.0 to have any hope of capturing Standard Definition audio and video at the speeds required to get it into a fast PC of the day.. with a hard drive array fast enough to capture everything.

In general it was designed for Wedding photographers, or people with Camcorder footage.. since eventually the audio and video would separate and drift of of sync.. but the shorter the "Clips" captured the less likely that was to happen.. for the "era in history" using the DV input and outputs were far more popular.. since that was captured to digital on the recorder and playback device and did not have audio and video "drift" or sync problems.

Pinnacle had a long history as an independent company, then bought by AVID, then separated back out.. split up and part went to Hauppague as PCTV and part went to Corel as "Pinnacle video studio".. but the hardware basically was a Pinnacle hardware device. AVID had their own line of hardware devices.. which were very different and didn't use USB 2.0 .. Pinnacle was considered "Consumer grade products" .. AVID was considered "Professional or Studio grade products"

During all that.. device drivers for older hardware were rarely commissioned to be re-written for the next generation of Microsoft Windows, the big boondoggle came in the shift from 32 bit to 64 bit device drivers on Windows 7.. prior to Windows 7.. for Windows Vista.. Microsoft had taught.. or championed that all device drivers that worked on Windows XP would work on Windows Vista.. except for audio device drivers.. (They re-designed the audio api stack and it sabotaged some device drivers).. since they did this once.. most manufacturers assumed Microsoft would do it again for future versions of Windows.. so they waited and didn't re-write the device drivers specifically for Windows 7 .. meanwhile AMD created a new chip called AMD64 which forced Microsoft to make both a 32 bit version of windows and a 64 bit version.. device drivers for the 32 bit version would not work on the 64 bit version.. manufacturers were already "used to" not re-writing device drivers from Vista to 7, and were completely "blocked" by the hardware re-write of Windows from 32 bit to 64 bit.. and that orphaned much of the hardware from Windows XP.

Add to this in the year 2009 when Vista was out.. and 7 was just in pre-release. The year 2009 was when the FCC essentially outlawed Standard Definition broadcast video and tons of hardware suddenly became obsolete... it was a little more gradual than that.. but over the next decade people basically "didn't care" and video capture from camcorders was traded for video capture from broadcast TV and Cable.. hence the PCTV and PVR craze.. these standalone video capture devices got left in the dust.

Their device drivers did not get re-written for Window Vista, or Windows 7 and certainly not for the Windows 7 64 bit version.

You (can) download and run the Windows XP device driver on Windows XP, Windows Vista (32 bit edition) and in some cases Windows 7 (32 bit edition) but it gets progressively harder since Microsoft was re-writing the audio stack to work out delay bugs in the software stack that caused periodic dropouts.. with clicks and pops.

Add to this .. Pinnacle/AVID.. also were scared/frightened their subsidized cheap hardware.. would be used with cheaper software for capture.. like Virtual Dub.. the Pinnacle / AVID (Liquid or Studio) products were sold at premium prices as non-Linear Editors.. so that cost partially paid for the hardware development and manufacture. The device drivers would reach into the windows registry and dis-configure the audio start up config.. so it could not use used unless "undone" by Pinnacle/AVID software upon start up. (Not a big deal) if you used a separate sound card for audio capture.. but then the coordination of audio and video capture from two different sources was always problematic.. its probably the "best" way really.. but PC's back then shared the processing time between drivers and could "loose" or "drop" video frames or audio samples while servicing a different device driver.

The device in the picture is known by the friendly name as the "BoB" or "Liquid - Break Out Box" or sometime as the Pinnacle Bob or AVID Bob.. its a disservice to the brilliance of the video capture hardware inside.. but it was a sign of the times and the companies.. that the hardware was considered or "treated" as worthless without the "magical" software sold with it.

[jwillis84]

As for steps to move forward.. if you really want to.

The best platform to use is Windows XP.

The device driver comes in an executable originally bundled with Pinnacle/AVID Liquid Pro ( comp_drvmbox.exe )

On install it interrogates you as to what you want installed.. but its fairly intuitive.

In theory you can install Windows XP in VirtualBox (Oracle) and map the USB2.0 input from the host PC to the virtual PC.. but remember even on a Fast Modern PC its still emulating.. so it may not be fast enough.

Once the device drivers are installed. Microsoft Windows DirectX GraphEdit can see the device driver as a filter source and allow you to capture video.

Or you can use VirtualDub to target the device driver source as a video input

Or use other Windows XP "ish" video capture software to acquire the video source.

Its not a very practical solution today.. and installing Windows XP will be hard and unlike anything most people have experience with today.

Don't even bother with Windows 10 or Windows 11.. the old device drivers are not "signed" by any of the certificates the Windows installer would allow today.. it would assume it was malware trying to attack.

And if your curious as to what the Bob looks like inside, a guy posted a teardown of one years and years ago.



The board on the Left is the "video capture" board.

The board on the Right is the "audio capture" board.

One thing to be very careful of.. is the power supply.. it has no protection against plugging in a power supply with too much voltage.. and that will fry the chips and make it completely unusable.

It was very common back in the day for people to take the power supply from a different device and accidentally plug it into this.. destroy the device and have to purchase another one just to keep using their expensive software.

The AVID Liquid Pro "license actication" servers have long been shutdown more than a decade and half ago.. so don't think you can install Liquid Pro and use it.. older.. much older.. versions of Pinnacle Video Studio (may) detect and allow you to capture from it.. but they de-supported a lot of hardware when they were bought out by Corel.

[Caple]

Thank you for the detailed reply.
Yesterday I ended up installing Avid Liquid 7.2 just fine. But it does not see the box, with the message "no device available". Even running comp_drvmbox.EXE I could not make it see the box.
I had no errors on the software or the drivers instalation.
The only thing I could try for now is connecting the box to a USB 2.0 port, instead of a 3.0 one.
Will try to install Windows 7 on an old laptop here to check if the box is detected.

[jwillis84]

You can try Windows 7 .. but that never worked for me.. the device driver was not written with Windows 7 in mind.. I think the setupapi log will show it failed to install the device driver.

If a device is found connected to a bus and windows 7 can't install a device driver it should setup a temporary Yellow Warning cone in the Device Manager.. and you can check details for the assigned universal pci vendor and device id used to find the matching device driver.. if it installed.

Windows XP "optionally" signed device drivers and would allow them to install even if the signature was wrong.. windows 7 blocked and did not allow a device driver to install if the signature was not valid.

Windows Vista was in a grey zone.. where you could override and "force" an unsigned or wrongly signed device driver to install.

by Windows 7 it was near impossible to override a device driver that was never signed to install

I have four Bob boxes sitting on my floor.. and every one works.. but only with Windows XP.

As I said you "might" be able to trick Windows Vista or Windows 7 (32 bit version only) to get the device driver installed.. but it won't be easy.. and then it won't work 100% correctly.. its a lot of work for little gain.. but good luck.

Windows 7 x64 version it will never work..

[Caple]

Do you run Windows 10/11?
Are you able to connect one of those boxes just to check if something will show up on device manager? I know it's not plug and play and I need the drivers to be installed. But, if the system sees the device, even if it can't install it, it should pop up on device manager. Doesn't it?

[jwillis84]

I have a Windows 7 x64 machine that I'm using right now.

I plug in power to an AVID Bob and then connect it by USB to a USB 2.0 port and get the following dialog box



In the device manager it creates a Yellow warning cone.



The power supplies can fail, and can be replaced.. but you have to make sure the voltage and polarity of the connector is correct or it can damage the Bob.

It also has to provide enough power, the Amps have to be as great or greater than the original power supply

+5 volt
2.8 Amp

center positive
barrel connector

DVE switching adapter
model: DSA-0151F-05

[Caple]

Ok. I understand that. Just wanted to know if the devide would show up on device manager, when running Windows 10.
I need that information to make sure my unit is working, even if I can't install it under Win 10.
I'll try Windows 7 later just to see if it will recognize it.
Thanx.

[jwillis84]

Ok.

Here is the same device connected to a Windows 10 Pro laptop

[Caple]

So there is my first issue. Mine does not even show up in there.
I'm using a regular USB cable, not the one included with the device. But I don't think that this could be an issue.

[jwillis84]

And here is same device connected to a Windows 11 Pro laptop.

[Caple]

Thank you again!
I'm gonna get the original cable (or at least the cable the person who gave the device to me said he was using), so I can see what happens.

[jwillis84]

There are only three possibilities;

1. Power supply is dead or incorrect one
2. AVID Bob is dead or previously damaged by connecting the wrong power supply and frying it
3. Some other device driver was overridden and "forced" to load to support the device and now its hiding in the tree useless

You can kind of check the first two by looking at the device to see if the Green power light shows up when its plugged in.

[Caple]

Green light is there. I don't think that's the issue.
I don't think the USB cable is the issue, too. But I'll have to try it.
But still I didn't try it on another PC. I'll do it as soon as I can. Maybe in a couple of hours.

[jwillis84]

I guess a fourth possibilitie is a Power (only) USB charger cable.

Apple used to hand these out a lot, and some Android phone manufactures did for a while.

They are very thin and flexible.. and don't have all four copper wires for data and power.. why it was worth saving that small amount of copper I dunno.

But for some reasons unknown to me.. older people tend to collect (A METRIC TON of them).. and always seem to have one handy and it never carries data.

[Caple]

The ones I have here are standard A to B USB cables, used on printers. For sure they have to carry data. I'll try others if I find some here.
But I already asked the previous owner for the cable he was using, as he stated it was working just fine.

[jwillis84]

Cables do go bad.

Just make sure your not doing something weird like plugging a type A into the DV port.. it might fit.. but that's not a USB port

[Caple]

Don't worry. I'm not doing anything dumb.

[jwillis84]

A few encouraging pics from Windows XP.

A Laptop with an SSD makes a fine capture device, SSD prices have fallen through the floor size wise.

[jwillis84]

A little more detail.

that's the same laptop that runs Windows XP, Windows Vista, Windows 7, Windows 8.1, Windows 10 and Windows 11

23 years of useful product life.. talk about "future proofing".. Sheezsh...

its been pretty flexible over the years

I've never run Apple Max OSX on it.. but I'm pretty sure OSX 10.6 through 10.13 would work just fine, but I've never needed too.. I had a Mac Book Pro for running most of those.. and a PowerPC Mac Mini for running anything older

The weird stuff has been chasing Thunderbolt version 1.0 on a PC, and Thunderbolt 2.0 on a Laptop PC .. I have those.. and they work well.. but Thunderbolt has always been problematic on a PC .. but mostly its worth it since.. a Thunderbolt attached device "looks" just like a PCI Express attached device to the Operating system.. and drivers written for PCI & PCI Express Desktops.. work just fine on Laptops with Thunderbolt.

Current year.. new stuff is pruning away useful things and consolidating everything on to USB 3.1 (Thunderbolt) for Mac or PC, Laptop or Desktop.. and a lot of the old interfaces are going away.. or being malware blocked at the UEFI (bios) level... even Linux is having a hard time.. and Linux is kind of going away.. new generations of people aren't as curious or maker/developer minded as the last generation only ten years ago.. we're entering a true.. new Dark ages

I guess if I had to pontificate.. HDMI is dead.. dead as a doornail.. and DisplayPort has taken its place.. but DisplayPort has morphed into half of the USB 3.1 (Thunderbolt) port.. so even DisplayPort is kind of dead.. everything has "grey-goo" devolved into PCIexpress by default since no one owns that.. and its a pretty old standard.

the arguments today are over how many "watts" of power you can pump out over USB 3.1 or 4.0

Its turning into Star Trek "Power Conduits" and "Plasma Relays" in a 50 Megawatt range.. to beam communications and power over the same copper traces.. before they vaporize... lol.

Its no wonder the bridge of the Star Ship Enterprise was always exploding and shoving control panels in peoples faces.. ever plug an iPhone into a USB 3.1 port that was "unrated" and "un-certified" ?

You'd be lucky that iPhone didn't explode and shove its gorilla glass into your face.

[Caple]

Thanx for the screenshots. I didn't have time to set XP on an old machine, yet.
What bugs me right now is that some people told me that if the drivers are not already pre-installed the device will not show on Device Manager. But for you it did, on Windows 10 and 11. And that information cannot be true, because you are probably running a 64bit Windows 10/11 and there is no way the drivers would already be installed.
That means my device should pop up on Device Manager, no matter if I have a 64bit OS or the drivers previously installed.
But you have proof that the device is detected when plugged in. And that should happen for me too.

[jwillis84]

That is true.. the PlugnPlay service doesn't care about device drivers.. it scans all buses and enumerates what it finds by asking the hardware.. what's your PCI vendor and id number and that is what populates the Details for the "things" found attached to the PC.. only after enumeration does it try to knit together a working system by matching PCI vendor ids to device drivers and starts loading them into memory.. then it sends a signal "start" to the device drivers and they run their start up routines.. if they succeed.. they are running.. if they fail the PlugnPlay service labels it with a "fail" symbol in the device tree

Its worked that way since the Windows 95 days way back in 1994

It actually kind of worked that way in Windows 3.11 with INI files before there was a registry.

[Caple]

So all I can imagine right now is that the box I have is faulty. Or both cables I tried are not communicating with it properly.

[jwillis84]

There is a behavioral circular logic thing that happens if you connect hardware "before" the device drivers are installed.

The PlugnPlay service will "sub" out icons for all found devices in the Device Driver tree.. including for those things that it could not find device drivers for..

Then after the device drivers are installed, the service does not automatically "rescan and match up" stubbed out devices with device drivers.

Usually people say just "remove" or uninstall the temporary "stub" icons.. and run a manual rescan, or reboot the system.

To avoid this manual step.. people and hardware boxes will give or have instructions, don't connect the hardware to the PC until the device drivers are installed.. as general guidance.. but you still get into this circular loop if something happens or goes wrong and you end up with the hardware detected and "stubbed" out in the device driver tree first

[Caple]

In either case I should see it on softwares like USBDeview, from Nirsoft, having the option to show USB devices that are disconnect and/or with no drivers installed.
But nothing there.

[jwillis84]

I guess it is something to check by plugging in something else to the same USB port to see if its working.. for a different device.

Could be the port is damaged or missing a cable from the outside of the PC to the motherboard ?

[Caple]

It's all fine with the ports. Tested on more the one and other stuff work just fine on it.

[jwillis84]

One thing I'm reminded of.. is try to be sure (its a USB 2.0) port, USB 3.0 was a wacko standard which let anyone choose to define what USB 3.0 was.. I had laptops and desktops that defined USB 3.0 to mean only works with specific devices.. like only for a mouse, only for a keyboard, only for a specific brand of external hard drive.. it was all over the place.

To this day .. I have an ASUS motherboard that says USB 3.0 ports (Only will detect and support external hard drives.. no cameras.. no mice, no keyboards).

USB 3.0 is an awful standard.

USB 2.0 was very rigid.. they had a standards body that.. only allowed "Certified" manufacturers to carry the label USB 2.0 if they participated in third party bake offs to (prove) their ports worked with everything the standard required.

After USB 3.0 they took back the certification process and manufacturers (Hate.. Hate.. Hate) USB 3.1 because they have to (prove) their ports are compatible again.

Manufacturers love to cut corners and save money.. or try to build "lock-in" into their products.. so they screw with standards anytime they get a chance.

USB 2.0 is "safe" and "reliable"

USB 3.0 is a myth.. its a total lie.. and there is nothing worth using a USB 3.0 port on.. its totally unreliable.

Just to sell a desktop or laptop.. they used to include (one) USB 2.0 port on every machine that included USB 3.0 ports.. or people basically wouldn't buy their product.. they gamed the system to the max. Buyers just assumed the other ports were broken most of the time.

Thankfully USB 3.0 is mostly behind us.. but if you have an older PC or Laptop.. you might be stuck with some USB 3.0 ports.. avoid them like the plague.

On laptops of the day.. the one on the Upper Right-hand side.. used to be labeled (for keyboards) and it was really a USB 2.0 port.. so you could attach a keyboard and get into BIOS if the laptop keyboard became damaged. I learned from that to (always) use the port on the Upper right hand side when I needed a "no nonsense" just plain works.. USB 2.0 port

Its not as fast as USB 3.0 (in theory) but it always worked.

In fact the laptop I used to make the screen caps .. has the exact same problem.. USB 3.0 port on the Left hand side.. and cannot detect the device.. but I plugged it into the port on the Right hand side (labeled for keyboards).. and it detects it right away.

I really .. strongly.. dislike USB 3.0 ports .. they have wasted so much of my time over the years.. its not even funny.

People in forums love to tick me off..saying.." I have USB 3.0 ports.. and they always worked for me.."

Well.. good for them.. but I know from experience they are going to be wasting time and effort one day.. and not have a clue why their thousand dollar PC ports aren't working.. so "good for you.. mister USB 3.0 fan boy"

It makes me mad "knowing" I have to play "guess-a-rama" with PC ports.. but its well worth reading the motherboard or laptop manual.. to find the USB 2.0 port.. they try to minimize.. or barely mention they included one.. because.. of course (why oh why? would they do that..)

[Caple]

I did try on a USB 2.0 port. No luck.
I reallt think there is some issue with the device. It should have been detected already.

[jwillis84]

Get a bright light and check the USB type B contacts inside the port of the device?

They do corrode and sometimes get bent by a cable plug when inserted and pulled out.. scrunches up the copper traces into the back of the connector port.

Maybe the USB type B port in the device has become loose.. and needs to be reattached or resoldered to the board inside the device?

.. just running all the possiblites through my mind.. the easy ones

Corrosion could be fixed by gently scraping to expose fresh contact copper.. or using a deoxide cleaner

Bent contact traces can be fished out with a toothpick or other fine tool

Resoldering is a bit of a chore.. but can be brought to bare on the problem