Shaky VCD

[Kryptic7]

I have this DVD (Planet of the Apes - 2001 version) that I wanted to make a "backup" of. I found this wonderful site as a resource in my effort to create SVCDs. So, I followed Sefy's Guide for "How to Author and Burn an SVCD with menus and chapters using TSCV" (by the way, thank you very much for doing that Sefy!) to create the SVCD. So I ripped the DVD, used DVD2AVI to framerate it and get a .d2v. I wanted the movie to fit on a maximum of 2 discs so I used the bitrate calculator located on this site to find out how many kbps I could make the movie so that it would fit snugly onto 2 discs. Using TMPGEnc and selecting 2-pass VBR and the SuperVideoCD template for NTSC, the average bitrate would be about 1600 kbps and the max bitrate would be about 2520 kbps. So I encoded it in halves and made it into .bin and .cue files with chapters using TSCV. I burned them and played them on my DVD player. Success! However, I came to a part with motion and noticed the picture was shaky. All motion is shaky. Still pictures are fine. However, when someone is moving or the camera pans in any direction, the issue occurs.

I posted on another forum and they told me that it might be the bitrate. So I lowered it (but only encoded about 5 minutes this time to conduct this test) and again the picture was shaky. Someone also told me that it might be my DVD player. I have a Samsung M301 player by the way. So I played the SVCD at 2 other peoples' houses and it was the same. (They do have different DVD players than myself, so that wasn't the issue.) Someone else told me it could be an interlacing issue. So, again, I conducted another test. I selected "Interlace" under the Advaned tab. Just as another test, I selected "Non-interlace" under Encode mode located under the video tab. (Note: everytime I conduct a test I change one setting and keep all other settings the same. I just wanted to say that just to avoid confusion.) I even decided to encode a portion of the video using the normal SVCD template, just to see. Alas, all the tests failed. All of the videos, including the normal one, experienced the shaky motion! However, I did note that the test that I changed to "Non-interlace" under the video tab did look the best. The shakyness was gone but was replaced by excesslive "dots" over the moving parts.

Can someone out there help me? It seems none of these things works properly! Thanks in advance.

Mike

BTW: You are a trooper for reading through all that crap above!

[poopyhead]

1) did you play the SVCD on your computer's CD-ROM using powerDVD/winDVD? was it shaky as well?

2) could be your field order is reversed

3) motion search accuracy to high quality (slow)

4) up your avg. bitrate..

however, before you do any of those things, answer this:

when using dvd2avi, what does dvd2avi's info box say about the video type? is it FILM, progressive or is it NTSC, interlaced?

[VCD-Trading]

Why are you wasting all your time and getting a headache over making VCDs on the computer ....

If you are trying to make VCDs or copy DVD to VCD, get a STAND ALONE VCD RECORDER...... I have a Terapin VCD recorder and its the best thing ever to come to Vidoe Recording especially if you're coping DVDs. I copied my whole entire DVD season 5 set of the X-files in one night using Terapin.

Forget about the computer....



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www.vcd-trading.com
Check it Out and Start Trading Today!

[poopyhead]

VCD-Trading, he may have said VCD in the topic, but he mentions he's making SVCD in his post..

also, standard VCDs are getting obsolute, the CBR encoding, low bitrate, low resolution of VCD 2.0 just ain't cutting it...and w/ standalone dvd players that can play SVCDs have their prices dropping like flies (apex is about $70), dunno why u still making VCDs

[Kryptic7]

I'm sorry. I forgot to mention that. I played the SVCD in my computer using PowerDVD and it plays just fine. There is no shakiness at all. I set Motion Search Precision to Highest quality on all of the tests. And do you think it's the bitrate? I mean, standard SVCD has 2520 kbps CBR (if I'm not mistaken) which is much higher than my 1600 kbps and still the shakiness prevailed. I was thinking it might be the field order. I chose the default that TMPGEnc has (which I believe is bottom field first) and I'm sure it could be a possiblity.

When I used DVD2AVI, it said the framerate was 29.97 fps and underneath it said NTSC Film. The "Film" part confused me a little but I decided to go with NTSC normal anyway since it did say the framerate was 29.97 and even on the box says 29.97. Poopyhead, thanks for the quick reply.

Mike

[Kryptic7]

Poopyhead, I take what I said above back. Under DVD2AVI, I'm given an aspect ratio of 16:9, a framerate of 29.97, and a videotype of Film. This is what troubled me previously because I wasn't sure if they meant that the source was a film (or movie) or if it meant that is was NTSC Film. However, since the framerate was 29.97 I decided to ahead with regular NTSC template when converting under TMPGEnc.

When SmartRipper extracts the .vob files, does it tell you that your source is regular NTSC or NTSC film?

Mike

[Sefy]

I don't know if you tried it, but in my experience, whenever the video is shaking, it's usualy the cause of a bad Field Order being selected, the best is to use TMPGEnc - Wizard mode to let it select the correct Field Order, and you will avoid the shaking that way.

You can of course select it yourself by going to the Settings - Advanced mode

[stanwebber]

forced film/inverse telecine is mandatory for 16:9 anamorphic ntsc discs. if you do it any other way it ends up looking wrong after the resize/letterboxing

[Sefy]

I completly disagree, all my movies are Wide Screen 16:9 and i've not used not even once the Force Film or Inverse Telecine.

And all my movies look great, smooth and without a single problem, and they playback great even in regular portable VCD Players.

[Kryptic7]

Yeah, I'll try to do a field order test. I'll post the results. Thanks.

[stanwebber]

think about it sefy. the movie is telecined. there is interlacing every 2 out of 5 frames during motion. you need to vertically compress/resize the image before adding letterboxing. you no longer have 2 complete fields(240 scanlines each). it's fucked up. best case scenario is ghosting, but more likely you'll end up with aberant scanlines. for vcd the distinction is irrelevent as you're blending/discarding fields anyway; however, this discussion is focused on svcd

[Sefy]

stanwebber, don't know what to tell you, i propably don't have as many movies as others, but i do have over a hundred of them, and 99% of my movies are VCD's and the rest are SxVCD, and i have no ghosts, no double lines, and the quality is absolutly smooth.

And i'm using Standard VCD, and i NEVER ever use Force Film or Telecine on ANY of my movies.

This is my experience, i've tried a couple of times to use Force Film, i've not noticed any quality improvment, and i'd even say I was unsatisfied with the results, as movement was not as smooth in my eyes as the comprable VCD of the same movie, and in some tests there was a A/V sync problem, which is why i'm avoiding Film for it's good and bad.

[stanwebber]

you lost me. is it that you're suggesting the poster abandon svcd in favor of vcd? or are you saying your method for vcd will work for svcd? what are you saying exactly & how does it relate to svcd creation?

[Sefy]

You mistranslated what I said, you recommanded using Force Film, and i'm saying that usually causes A/V sync problems for most of those who used it, I am simply giving an alternate solution.

Now, considering the topic is "Shaky VCD" and not SVCD, I don't see why am I confusing you so much.

Lastly, most problems regarding Shaky VCD are caused by an incorrect Field Order, and by choosing the correct one (or letting the Wizard choose it) will fix the problem.

[poopyhead]

I'm sorry. I forgot to mention that. I played the SVCD in my computer using PowerDVD and it plays just fine. There is no shakiness at all. I set Motion Search Precision to Highest quality on all of the tests. And do you think it's the bitrate? I mean, standard SVCD has 2520 kbps CBR (if I'm not mistaken) which is much higher than my 1600 kbps and still the shakiness prevailed. I was thinking it might be the field order. I chose the default that TMPGEnc has (which I believe is bottom field first) and I'm sure it could be a possiblity.

When I used DVD2AVI, it said the framerate was 29.97 fps and underneath it said NTSC Film. The "Film" part confused me a little but I decided to go with NTSC normal anyway since it did say the framerate was 29.97 and even on the box says 29.97. Poopyhead, thanks for the quick reply.

Mike

1) always use VBR w/ SVCDs....CBRs do not make good use of the bandwidth, hence it's one of the reasons why standard VCD 2.0 (which uses CBR, rather than VBR) are not as good as SVCD

2) ignore the framerate in dvd2avi...the framerate is determined whether u checked the forced film option or not (under video dropdown menu)....do a test...enable force film and the framerate will magically drop down to 23.976, and then disable force film and the framerate will go back up to 29.97.

basically, ignore the framerate for now and concentrate on the video type...u said that the video was of type FILM, as opposed to NTSC, thus, you should ENABLE FORCED FILM in dvd2avi and use the NTSC FILM template (not NTSC template) in tmpenc...

3) also, as i said earlier....the field order can be a problem

4) but, if it doesn't happen on the computer but only your dvd player, it can be the cd-r not being compatible with your dvd player or perhaps your dvd player cannot read upto such high bitrates

best bet is to goto the DVD players section on vcdhelp.com and look for info about your dvd player and wut it can and cannot support

[Kryptic7]

Poopyhead, you were right! Apparently, the "Framerate"(underneath the Aspect Ratio) is not the actual framerate of the movie at all, which is what I was assuming earlier. I hit preview and the FPS on the bottom was about 22-24. So I guess it was NTSC Film. In my other post someone told me that the majority of DVD's were in NTSC Film formate and I guess that person was correct. So anyway, I did the "force film" trick under DVD2AVI and then encoded (using the TMPGEnc template for SVCD NTSC Film) and burned it onto a disc. Success! No more shakiness! Thanks for all your help guys. I'm sorry...I should have named the topic Shaky SVCD.

Mike

PS: In my other post, someone told me that using NTSC Film allows me 20% more space to up the bitrate. However, the bitrate calculator I have does not account for NTSC Film. How do I do this? Here are the current settings:

Movie Length: 1 hr 59 min 57 sec
Audio quality: 224
Video: 2-pass VBR with 1600 kbps avg and 2500 kbps max
Size of CDR: 80 min
Number of discs: 2

Using these settings under the regular NTSC template, I had two 80 min discs filled to the brim. (it was very very close). Now, how do I calculate the bitrate for NTSC film?

[kinneera]

PS: In my other post, someone told me that using NTSC Film allows me 20% more space to up the bitrate. However, the bitrate calculator I have does not account for NTSC Film. How do I do this?

You don't have to worry about changing the bitrate. The 20% quality improvement derives from the fact that you are encoding 20% fewer frames at the same bitrate.

[Kryptic7]

But that means that I will have a smaller file size right? And if this is correct, I can increase the bitrate a little to make up for that. Am I right?

[kinneera]

Well, not exactly. A given bitrate (we'll assume CBR for the purposes of the example) provides a certain amount of data every second. So if you encode only 23.97 frames in that second rather than 29.97, the quality of the frames will be higher because each one receives more bits. The number of bits applied in that second is the same, though, so the final file size remains the same. Hopefully that makes sense.

[poopyhead]

kinneera, what Kryptic7 probably means is that if he were to have the same quality for NTSC and NTSC FILM, the NTSC FILM should be of smaller size since there are less frames to encode...rather than keeping the same file sizes for both NTSC and NTSC FILM with NTSC FILM being of higher quality

[kinneera]

Sure, thats another way of thinking about it. I was just trying to explain why he doesn't need to worry about changing the bitrate (he asked about the bitrate calculator).

[Kryptic7]

That makes complete sense. Basically, it is already applied to the frames without me having to worry about it. Thank you.

One last question: if I encounter a DVD that's say, 29.97 fps, can I do an inverse telecine to make it back to 23.97 fps without any problems?

[kinneera]

When you say 29.97 fps, you mean a DVD that DVD2AVI identifies as standard NTSC? Assuming that is what you mean, then no, you will not want to attempt to inverse telecine it, as it was filmed interlaced.