Advice on denoising a Laserdisc capture?

[Dr Gonzo]

Hello there,

I'm working on a Laserdisc capture and despite applying the Neat Video filter via VirtualDub, there still appears to be a substantial layer of noise (I don't know the name for the exact type, so if you can identify it, please do) and I'd really appreciate some advice on how to tackle it. Below is a link to a HuffYuv clip of a few seconds where the noise is visible on the actor's shoulders and also the scenery.

https://mega.co.nz/#!gc9DRTTQ!RXu4doLD75JS83WvzwVwWiKigO18bw7vAVbIlA0AJnM

I still have the original, raw captures (obtained via a BT-878 based card) and can return to those and start again if necessary. I've never tried AviSynth but if needs be, I'm willing to learn.

Thanks.

[jagabo]

You should inverse telecine, not deinterlace. TFM().TDecimate() in AviSynth is best, but VirtualDub has an IVTC filter too.

[Dr Gonzo]

Thanks for replying, I did perform a IVTC on the capture within VirtualDub. Does it need to be redone?

[sanlyn]

Your sample has already been converted to RGB. Otherwise I could find no version of huffyuv that can properly display your sample.

[jagabo]

Thanks for replying, I did perform a IVTC on the capture within VirtualDub. Does it need to be redone?

Every 5th frame is a duplicate. There are aliasing problems in many places.\

It would be helpful if you would be more specific about what noise you're talking about. There are several shoulders and lots of background.

I think you'll need to upload a sample of your source too. So we can tell which problems you caused and which were in the source.

Otherwise I could find no version of huffyuv that can properly display your sample.

The old HuffYUV 2.1.1 is working fine for me.

[sanlyn]

That's the huffyuv I have (huffyuv v2.1.1-CCESP Patch v0.2.2). But I took that out and tried 2.2.5 and ffdshow's huff. Oh, well, so much for huffyuv on different systems. I convert my huff 2.1.1 captures to Lagarith, which is a tad too slow for capture with my old capture PC and AIW. Whatever....

[Dr Gonzo]

Sorry about that.

Here's a new version of the clip that plays within VLC without any issues.

The noise I'm referring to is really visible during the shots with Harrison Ford sitting down (and you can see it all over his shoulders) and then the shots where the Millennium Falcon is shown and the noise is literally "crawling" all over the c o c kpit area.

https://mega.co.nz/#!cYEFRb5B!lKBApTVNrcSl7tR2dNwithVMXYEUT23ZSzyjT3oBveA

As requested, here is a sample of the raw source. As you can see, the unfiltered, raw capture is completely covered with video noise.

https://mega.co.nz/#!pVFikRSY!mbbbJb23kfCCPlPiOW0VdQ3vRGtKHD22Pb5gCFPS25s

This is my first attempt at video capturing so I'd appreciate any advice or pointers you can offer.

Thanks again.

[jagabo]

Are you talking about the buzzing on sharp, near-horizontal, lines and edges? Did you run a sharpen filter while capturing?

[Dr Gonzo]

No, I meant the (shimmering?) layer of noise seen moving around on Ford's shoulders at 00:00:08 up to 00:00:15 and then right across the entire image from 00:00:16 onwards. On the unfiltered raw capture, you can see the noise much more visibly because the whole video is covered with it.

I captured the LD using iuVCS (neither Virtual VCR nor VirtualDub worked properly for capturing), as far as I can recall, no filters were applied during the capturing process.

[jman98]

Holy crap. Maybe you should specify what your capture device is and what type of connection you are using from the LD player to the device. I apologize if you did and I somehow missed it, but I only have time right now for a quick scan of this and I didn't see such info. For what it's worth I sometimes do LD captures using my Hauppauge Colossus card and I NEVER see this kind of thing.

Learning to use AviSynth might be a good idea, but something is horribly wrong if you are capturing with this kind of thing happening.

[Dr Gonzo]

No probs, here's the tech specs for the PC I've used for the video capturing.

P4 3.06Ghz, 2GB Ram, 320GB HDD (plus various external HDD's) running WinXP Pro SP3.
The capture card is the Leadtek WinFast VC100 XP.

My main LD player is the industrial Pioneer LDV-4400 and the cable is a 5m Belkin gold plated composite video cable.

[jagabo]

I suspect that laserdisc was made from a video tape. Hence all the noise, fluctuating levels, etc.

I see two types things that you may be referring to as "shimmering". There's still lots of noise left after Neat Video. You could reduce that with stronger settings. There are brightness fluctuations from frame to frame. You can reduce that with a de-flicker filter like MSU's. I'd deflicker before using Neat Video. Be careful, deflicker filters can lead to brightness pumping at shot changes.

[jman98]

I don't know anything about that card. Sorry.

Composite capture is correct.

What's the film? And what country was this laserdisc bought in? We might be able to find out if there's anything unusual about it.

[Dr Gonzo]

Return of the Jedi the LD is an NTSC version, produced in 1990 by CBS/FOX in the US.

http://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/00874/1478-85/Star-Wars:-Return-of-the-Jedi-%281983%29

It is in turn, a repackaging of a Japanese release from 86/87 (sans Japanese subs).

http://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/11018/SF148-1343/Star-Wars:-Return-of-the-Jedi-%281983%29

I haven't been able to ascertain any details about the telecining and mastering.

[jman98]

Thanks. I thought that might have been one of the Star Wars LDs. My brother and I have I think all the various permutations and none of them look like Sanlyn's image above.

If you want to save yourself a ton of time, you might be interested in researching Harmy's three Despecialized Edition releases of the first 3 movies. These can be obtained via various means such as Bit Torrent and Usenet. Would keep you from reinventing the wheel with your captures. His 3 releases are 720p, which is better than you'll get anyway.

[poisondeathray]

Han looks like he's becoming a Borg in that picture!!

[Brad]

All of the LDs have been captured and shared multiple times by Star Wars fans, so you may want to consider whether or not to reinvent the wheel.

In fact someone with your same username did it 10 years ago: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/The-Dr-Gonzo-Trilogy-DVD-Info-and-Feedback-...ad/topic/1382/

[Dr Gonzo]

I've got no connection to him, I'm just a fan of Hunter S. Thompson.

Here's a snapshot of the capture with the correct Huff version:



Thanks for the suggestions and advice, I'll take a look at the existing transfers. Even so, I'd still like to learn how to prevent problems in the future because I have a number of films on LD that are unavailable on modern formats.

What would be the best method to prevent frame duplication and aliasing for subsequent captures and will I always have to contend with video noise issues or is this mainly confined to the older LD's that were sourced from a videotape master?

[jagabo]

What would be the best method to prevent frame duplication

If you're going to use VirtualDub's IVTC select the Reduce Frame Rate option. That will discard the duplicate frames and restore the 23.976 fps frame rate.

and aliasing

The problem in this case is the laserdisc is overly sharp along the vertical axis. You can try applying anti-aliasing filters. That will reduce some of it but some will remain -- like that flickering thin horizontal line just below the Millennium Falcon in the latter part of your clip.

[jmac698]

Something I might mention, but I don't know if it'll be helpful, but there's a frame code on CAV discs that continuously give the frame number, and it's possible to capture that, so you can ensure you're not missing or getting duplicate frames (I have captured this myself with tweaked bt878 drivers). Why would you need that? I've found that virtualdub messes up capture with skipped and duped frames. There's a setting which helps though.

http://forum.doom9.org/archive/index.php/t-163958.html
I believe the settings are to uncheck insert frames.

http://forums.virtualdub.org/index.php?act=ST&f=6&t=19460&hl=dupes&

[happycube]

The BT878's comb filter simply isn't up for the task, the video is too noisy and complex. The CX2388x cards internally work at a higher bit depth IIRC and might do a bit better.

I've heard the V4400 has some CLV smear issues, and I see them in the first shot.

Do you have anything with a better comb filter lying around? If so take the S-Video from it and feed it into the BT878.

Newer LD's might be better, but LD is an inherently analog video format and noise like this is very common, especially on sharp disks (if the Star Wars JSC is anything to go by, this is, too...) If you have a late 90's disk pressed by Kuraray, that'd be a good reference to look at the 'final' form of LD.